Pre-Pole Roundup:Comic Book Middleweights

[Ranxerox]

Currently we have 2 two poles on this board where Daredevil is getting his butt kicked. In one Batman is doing it and in the other Captain America gets the honor. Neither of these fights seem particularly fair because it is obvious from how these characters are usually drawn that both Cap and Batman have 40 or 50 pounds of muscle mass on Daredevil. As the saying goes, a good big man will beat a good little man every time.

 

So in order to give DD a fighting chance, I would like to put together a pull of good comic book middleweight martial artist. I already know that the pole will include Nightwing, Daredevil and Shang-chi but I'm looking for other names.

 

Please, no chicks (that is a different pole) or anyone overly obscure (too difficult for the voting public to judge their credentials).

 

Thanks in advance for all suggestions.

[death tribble]

Moonknight is one possibility.

 

Daredevil clashed with the Punisher as well so that's a possible.

[Hermit]

I would nominate Moonknight

Nomad (Jack Monroe- Long hair and stubble version)

Night Thrasher (of New Warriors fame)

[Starlord]

Iron Fist

Nightwing

DD

Shang-Chi

Moon Knight

Wildcat (JSA?)

Black Panther

Black Widow (c'mon girls are tough, too!)

Triathlon

Wolverine? (would he go in here?)

[Hermit]

I don't think Wolverine would be appropriate. Lord knows, the popularity factor for both Bats and Cap is bad enough... but Wolverine seems to bring out something.. dark in every fan boy

 

You'll soon have folks talking about how in one issue he TRAINED Captain America yadda yadda

[Chuckg]

> Iron Fist

 

If Daniel holds back from using the Iron Fist, DD has a chance. Not much of one, but a chance.

 

*With* the Iron Fist, DD would need a vibranium body stocking to survive.

 

> Nightwing

 

This one is going on for a helluva long time, but I see Nightwing eventually squeaking out the win. I'll unbend enough to admit that they went for a series of ten, DD could take a few, but not the majority.

 

> Shang-Chi

 

There are three main portrayals of Shang-Chi -- original Silver Age Shang-Chi, late 80's and 90's Shang-Chi, and Chuck Dixon's 'Marvel Knights' Shang-Chi. The middle one was a wimp, the other two were martial arts demigods.

 

So DD could beat the middle one, but the other two guys... that's not a fight, that's a massacre.

 

> Moon Knight

 

Daredevil.

 

> Wildcat (JSA?)

 

Ted Grant is one of the most formidable boxers I've ever seen in comics, and a mean mother street fighter. DD and him could go for a long long time.

 

> Black Panther

 

Without his gear, T'Challa can still give Cap a challenging exercise. With his current vibranium body armor and gadget load-out, he's practically invulnerable to anything short of Wonder Man or the Hulk.

 

> Black Widow (c'mon girls are tough, too!)

 

We've seen this fight in DD comics several times, and while Tasha can give Matt a challenging workout, Matt beat her every time.

 

> Triathlon

 

Dunno much about him.

 

> Wolverine? (would he go in here?)

 

With that Regeneration? And that obnoxious Damage Reduction? Wolverine is a guy that Captain America and Batman would need heavy Foci to do effective damage to, and that's if Logan voluntarily took DCV 0.

 

It didn't use to be that bad, admitted, but ever since the 90's Logan's healing factor has been somewhere between ridiculous and ludicrous.

 

(I'm not even going to touch the argument about where Logan's skill level is, because I don't need to. When you are effectively impossible to damage with the unaided human hand, *and* can ignore most NND Nerve Strikes and Choke Holds and other such maneuvers, you pretty much win any pure martial arts battle you enter unless it's against people like Val Armorr, or unless the other guy is bringing something with which to gas, blind, stun, or electrocute you with.)

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Hermit

You'll soon have folks talking about how in one issue he TRAINED Captain America yadda yadda

 

Don't forget who trained ya, bub.

 

Wolverine's been involved in some of the dumbest retcons and storylines.

[Hermit]

Oh, and "The Shroud", though, uhm, that darkness power isn't going to do him much good against DD.

[Chuckg]

The Shroud -- DD folds, spindles, and mutilates him.

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Iron Fist

 

If Daniel holds back from using the Iron Fist, DD has a chance. Not much of one, but a chance.

 

*With* the Iron Fist, DD would need a vibranium body stocking to survive.

 

> Nightwing

 

This one is going on for a helluva long time, but I see Nightwing eventually squeaking out the win. I'll unbend enough to admit that they went for a series of ten, DD could take a few, but not the majority.

 

> Shang-Chi

 

There are three main portrayals of Shang-Chi -- original Silver Age Shang-Chi, late 80's and 90's Shang-Chi, and Chuck Dixon's 'Marvel Knights' Shang-Chi. The middle one was a wimp, the other two were martial arts demigods.

 

So DD could beat the middle one, but the other two guys... that's not a fight, that's a massacre.

 

> Moon Knight

 

Daredevil.

 

> Wildcat (JSA?)

 

Ted Grant is one of the most formidable boxers I've ever seen in comics, and a mean mother street fighter. DD and him could go for a long long time.

 

> Black Panther

 

Without his gear, T'Challa can still give Cap a challenging exercise. With his current vibranium body armor and gadget load-out, he's practically invulnerable to anything short of Wonder Man or the Hulk.

 

> Black Widow (c'mon girls are tough, too!)

 

We've seen this fight in DD comics several times, and while Tasha can give Matt a challenging workout, Matt beat her every time.

 

> Triathlon

 

Dunno much about him.

 

> Wolverine? (would he go in here?)

 

With that Regeneration? And that obnoxious Damage Reduction? Wolverine is a guy that Captain America and Batman would need heavy Foci to do effective damage to, and that's if Logan voluntarily took DCV 0.

 

It didn't use to be that bad, admitted, but ever since the 90's Logan's healing factor has been somewhere between ridiculous and ludicrous.

 

(I'm not even going to touch the argument about where Logan's skill level is, because I don't need to. When you are effectively impossible to damage with the unaided human hand, *and* can ignore most NND Nerve Strikes and Choke Holds and other such maneuvers, you pretty much win any pure martial arts battle you enter unless it's against people like Val Armorr, or unless the other guy is bringing something with which to gas, blind, stun, or electrocute you with.)

 

I'll wait to see who ends up in the actual poll, but I agree with those pretty much.

 

Triathlon is a relatively new hero with the Avengers, more of an acrobatic fighter than a martial artist, I guess. Speed, strength, and speed are probably slightly superhuman also.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Starlord

Nightwing

 

What is interesting about Nightwing, that in a standup no gadgets just fight in a ring fight, he is actually better than Bats. Bruce admits this even. And the character and tactical growth he has gone through in the last few years (and how the writers have treated him) he is moving much closer to his mentor in a all out fight. I might not even consider him a middleweight. If he is, he takes everybody.

[Chuckg]

> What is interesting about Nightwing, that in a standup no

> gadgets just fight in a ring fight, he is actually better than

> Bats.

 

I disagree. We saw Nightwing vs. Batman, with Nightwing holding nothing back, in the first 'Fugitive TPB...

 

... and Batman, using no gadgets, humiliated Dick incredibly. DIck literally couldn't lay a finger on him, and Batman didn't even have to bother swinging back, he defeated Dick without lifting a hand.

 

> Bruce admits this even.

 

Actually, no -- if you're referring to their conversation in DETECTIVE COMICS #725, what Batman was referring to re: Dick being better than him is that Dick has become a better *human being* than Batman... Dick has managed to successfully balance the demands of being a superhero, a team leader, *and* a regular person, whereas Batman has let his obsession effectively destroy any chance he's ever had to find happiness with anyone (edit), not to mention his often massively dysfunctional relationships even with his own "family".

 

Dick is also, and has been ever since he's been in short pants, Batman's clear superior as a pure acrobat... but not in the ring.

 

And please note, me be major Bat-fan... and Nightwing fan.

 

 

Edit -- however, I will admit that I haven't read the NIGHTWING solo title since Chuck Dixon left the book, which means I might have missed something recent. If I have, please disregard the above, and please let me know what it was.

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Lord Mhoram

What is interesting about Nightwing, that in a standup no gadgets just fight in a ring fight, he is actually better than Bats. Bruce admits this even. And the character and tactical growth he has gone through in the last few years (and how the writers have treated him) he is moving much closer to his mentor in a all out fight. I might not even consider him a middleweight. If he is, he takes everybody.

 

I seem to remember Batman admitting Nightwing is a better 'leader' than he is, but I can't see him being the better fighter. Probably more agile, though.

[red_eagle123]

Originally posted by Starlord

I seem to remember Batman admitting Nightwing is a better 'leader' than he is, but I can't see him being the better fighter. Probably more agile, though.

 

Mr. Grayson is not considered a better combatant than a fair majority of martial artists in DC Comic-dom. However, he is easily one of the most talented natural athletes in the DC-verse. In the Robin zero hour comic, it was commented by Tim Drake that his predecessor does things most humans have a hard time thinking of, and makes it look easy to boot.

 

In terms of Leadership, He is a decent leader, I wouldn't say he's the most tactical mind out there, but people are more willing to respond to him both due to his relationship with Bats (He served as Robin how long? SOMEthing had to have rubbed off), and because he's typically a fairly approachable fellow (Although late Titans and now Outsiders this is changing).

 

And please note that all these comments come from a very hard-core Titans fan, so I'm not trying to knock someone I dislike, just looking at it from perspective.

[Vondy]

I don't think wolverine belongs on this list. He's gone head to head with Cap before and walked away from it (more of a draw than a win). Wolverine's regeneration, toughness, and experience make him hard to put down.

 

As for skill: it depends which writer's version of wolverine we're talking about. Are we talking about brawler wolverine, where Cap's of Bat's advantage in skill would be more blatant? Or are we talking about "I am ninja master wolverine who wades through hordes of ninja that pop out of closets for no appaerent reason all by my lonesome wolverine?"

 

There is a reason many have nicknamed him: "Mr. Black"

 

--------------

 

As for nightwing: he is technically a middleweight, but he's a high-end middle-weight, and I would think he'd come out on top of the others I've seen mentioned here (my avatar aside). When Batman was down he donned the Mantle...

 

--------------

 

Nick Fury would make the list, and even though they aren't technically superheroes, Stormshadow and Snake-Eyes from the GI Joe comics could probaly take most of these people on (and down in some cases).

 

-------------

 

I confess to preferring middle-weights to a lot of the "big guns."

 

Birds of Prey, Nightwing, Harley Quinn, and Marvel Knights are more my speed than many of the others. And the widow is a personal fave....

[Hermit]

Originally posted by red_eagle123

 

In terms of Leadership, He is a decent leader, I wouldn't say he's the most tactical mind out there, but people are more willing to respond to him both due to his relationship with Bats (He served as Robin how long? SOMEthing had to have rubbed off), and because he's typically a fairly approachable fellow (Although late Titans and now Outsiders this is changing).

 

Heck, I'd say much more than "decent". His tactical mind and teamwork coordination, from what I've seen, have always been top notch. He doesn't pull many "We few, we angsty few, we band of super heroes" speaches, but as someone pointed out, he can forge teams with the best of them.

 

Sorry for getting slightly off topic there

[Chuckg]

Plus, as us old-time Titans fans can testify, the Titans are much harder to lead than some other superteams, because they can tend to be a bit... mmm, 'fractious' is the word.

 

(Or, as i said before, leading the Titans has been unfavorably compared to herding kittens. *g*)

[Lord Liaden]

We've had the DD/Iron Fist fight already, in a crossover of Daredevil with the old Power/Fist title. The two of them were throwing punches and kicks at each other, bobbing and weaving in return, and neither one could lay a glove on the other. After a bit they started trading compliments on each other's style, which got rather amusing:

 

Iron Fist: "VERY nice. What do you call that move?"

 

Daredevil: "Ducking."

 

Iron Fist: "Hmm. Unconventional, but it works!"

 

Is the Bronze Tiger still alive in the DCU? He'd certainly belong on this list. And I believe there's a new White Tiger in the MU as well.

 

DC's Guardsman would be a judgement call IMO. To some extent he's the Captain America of the DCU, same vintage with a gimmick shield. Unlike Cap he's been active all these years, so has literally over half a century of combat experience. Since he received his enhanced clone body from the Cadmus Project, though, he may have moved up into the heavyweights. He held his own pretty well against Superman for several rounds.

[assault]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Batman has let his obsession effectively destroy any chance he's ever had to find happiness with anyone (edit), not to mention his often massively dysfunctional relationships even with his own "family".

 

Yeah, pull the other one.

 

Those of us who have been around for a while remember who the Earth-2 Batman married.

 

And their daughter.

 

...

 

One the main point of the thread:

 

Wildcat would be a serious contender - if his lack of equipment didn't become a problem. He might also have a few problems due to his age - he might not be quite at his peak any more. On the other hand, very few of the others would like being on the receiving end of one of his punches!

 

The Guardian would be a serious contender too. His new body seems to be a bit improved on the original, and, yes, he managed to avoid Superman for a while.

 

As for the female section of the competition, well, I have a certain fondness for Selina Kyle.

 

And her Earth-2 daughter - bringing this post full circle.

 

Alan

[Agent Escafarc]

Wasn't Ted Grant(Wildcat) Heavyweight Champion of the World. And his age wouldn't be a factor since he hasn't really aged in the past 30yrs do to several reasons including the resant "9-lives" thing they are doing in current JSA issues

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

We've had the DD/Iron Fist fight already, in a crossover of Daredevil with the old Power/Fist title. The two of them were throwing punches and kicks at each other, bobbing and weaving in return, and neither one could lay a glove on the other. After a bit they started trading compliments on each other's style, which got rather amusing:

 

Iron Fist: "VERY nice. What do you call that move?"

 

Daredevil: "Ducking."

 

Iron Fist: "Hmm. Unconventional, but it works!"

 

I'm pretty sure they faced off in the first Contest of Champions as well. I seem to recall DD winning after blinding 'Fist with a snowball.

[Kevin Scrivner]

More Golden Oldies

 

What about some of the older guys, older as in Golden Age? I'd add Lee Falk's The Phantom and the Blue Beetle to the enlistment rolls. Radio's Green Hornet relied on his gas gun but could throw a mean punch, too. Heroes such as Spy Smasher and the Masked Marvel are probably too obscure but would fit this category. And JSA's Dollman was essentially a pugilist with a shrinking schtick.

[Speedball]

Elektra? I seem to recall a couple of fights between her and DD (and No, I'm not referencing the movie, for God's sake) that were draws.

 

I think he's out of the "middleweight" category, but how about The Midnighter from "The Authority?" Someone in the book (can't remember who) called him "the most dangerous person alive."

[Ranxerox]

Thanks for all the suggestions so far.

 

I will post the pole later today but there is still time for last minute nominations.

[Crimson Arrow]

What about Conor Hawke? Yes, allegedly third best (or whatever it is today) martial artist in the DCU, but he doesn't have Daredevil's superb senses. Conor is a similar sort of build to Matt Murdoch (well, in most incarnations). And I never quite bought that Conor was THAT good at martial arts. Fantastic, yes, third best, no.