250 vs 350 5E Characters

[Ninja-Bear]

I ran across Armadilo last night in CKC. Now I didnt do a detail analysis but at first glance I did see something interesting. In CKC he is listed at 350 pts. however from whst I can tell, he is fairly well built power level wise the same as when he was in BBB, he is more fleshed out with some logical PA abilities and skills. He seems to be what Assault and I have said about using the extra points from 250 to 350 to expand a character but not make him more powerful by increasing stats and DC anf such.

[Tasha]

I ran across Armadilo last night in CKC. Now I didnt do a detail analysis but at first glance I did see something interesting. In CKC he is listed at 350 pts. however from whst I can tell, he is fairly well built power level wise the same as when he was in BBB, he is more fleshed out with some logical PA abilities and skills. He seems to be what Assault and I have said about using the extra points from 250 to 350 to expand a character but not make him more powerful by increasing stats and DC anf such.

 

I have been looking at CKC 400pt villains to use as Pregen Characters for my upcoming Necessary Evil Campaign. I was surprised at how balanced the 400pt villains are. Never had a problem with my 500 pt heroes(6e) seeing people as people. Mooks are as tough as the weapons you give them and DC 10+ weapons are the norm for Superhero take town teams for Viper etc. Heroes will be heroes, no matter if they are built on 1000 pts or 200 pts.

[Tasha]

I think it comes down to HOW you play Champions. If your games are superbattle of the week, then lower point characters with few to no OOC Skills work great. If you want to run a game where the PC's investigate issues, talk to people etc, then you need to have a few more points for those non combat skills. In my experience going from 250 -350 allows players to spend the points on both Non Combat skills, but also to help build the character they want with a minimum of cheesy Limitations.

At 250pts I saw a ton of Heroes with their powers in a focus. At 350 We had rounded characters with no foci, which fits the genre better IMHO.

[Grailknight]

That's a good point Tasha. When we started our 5th campaign, skills went up and power levels went down also. Dropping the frequency of focus gave of characters truer to the feel we wanted.

 

We were able to lower the power of mooks as well.

 

Typical agent blaster

 

4d6 EB, Penetrating, 3 shot Autofire  stun setting, 1d6+1 RKA, Penetrating, 3 shot Autofire deadly setting.  Captures or Kills Normals just fine and enough of them could take down all but the hardened heroes.

[Ninja-Bear]

Grailknight I'm scratching my head. I can why the increase in points increased skills. I can also why it would help fet rid of foci. But why would an increase in points lower power levels from the previous 250 pts?

[Grailknight]

Ninja-Bear, the points left over after Characteristics and Skills were higher, but not enough to to be greater than the multiplier given by Focuses.

 

Some of it was also caused by abandoning the CU for the reasons I mentioned in #23.

[Cassandra]

Building characters in Champions is an exercise in balance.  How powerful is your characters attack?  How strong are their defenses?  How much Endurance do they have, and how fast do they recover it?  How fast can they travel, and how much support do they provide/need from the team?

 

And that's not even bringing up skills.

 

For original characters it's easier because there are no expectations.  You say you're hero is the greatest detective in the known universe that's okay until proven otherwise.  With Batman you expect him to have a Criminology and Detection rolls of 18-.  You expect Superman to have 110 STR (100 kilotons).  The Flash has to have 12 SPD and 30" Running.

 

Those things are easy when you have unlimited points, but if you're character has that so do your enemies.  Suddenly you're tearing lifting skyscrapers and using them as baseball bats.

 

350 Points characters are a bit more reasonable, but here is a question.  How many points is the Active Maximum?  Traditionally it's 75 Points, and that means most Bricks are going to have 75 STR, and 35 PD.  

 

250 Points characters usually have 60 Points Maximums, and a Brick would be at 60 STR, and 30 PD.  The more points you have the more points go into your major attack and defenses.  How many of the points left over actually go for skills, and other "Character Background" skills?  

 

The more points you have, the bigger you build.

[Greywind]

For original characters it's easier because there are no expectations. 

 

All the more reason not to mess with published characters.

[Cassandra]

All the more reason not to mess with published characters.

 

No, to quote J-Men Forever "You should just paint your under ware and live within your limitations."

[Greywind]

No. Because you are not going to manage a fully acceptable version. Limiting the amount of points in trying to create those published characters, at best, you are going to have watered down homages, and not an actual reflection of the character in question.

 

You are much better off creating your own characters in which your preconceived bias of the published characters won't be brought into question.

 

If you absolutely have to have a DC or Marvel clone running around, fully admit that it is only an homage and don't use the published character's name.

[assault]

While I prefer homages for actual play, I dispute that "fully acceptable versions" are impossible on limited points.

 

Once again: "starting points give starting characters".

 

There is, almost invariably, a world of difference between Awesome Dude as he appeared in Awesome Comics #1, and how he appeared in #359. But he was still Awesome Dude in his first appearance.

 

If a character design allows the character to do everything Awesome Dude did in Awesome Comics #1 (and preferably #2, #3, and as many other issues as possible), then it is "fully acceptable" in my view.

[Greywind]

The nu-41 Awesome Dude is not the same Awesome Dude that appeared in Awesome Comics #1. He more closely resembles the power level of the Awesome Dude that was running around prior to the Multi-Dimensional Collision Crisis. Nobody wants to play the starting power level Awesome Dude.

[assault]

True, but then you build Awesome Dude strictly on his initial nu-41 appearances, ignoring previous material.

 

"Writing for the trades" means that a whole year's worth of nu-41 issues is the rough equivalent of three old school issues in terms of plotline. Basically, if he can do what he did in the initial plotline, he's legit.

[Tasha]

Building characters in Champions is an exercise in balance.  How powerful is your characters attack?  How strong are their defenses?  How much Endurance do they have, and how fast do they recover it?  How fast can they travel, and how much support do they provide/need from the team?

 

And that's not even bringing up skills.

 

For original characters it's easier because there are no expectations.  You say you're hero is the greatest detective in the known universe that's okay until proven otherwise.  With Batman you expect him to have a Criminology and Detection rolls of 18-.  You expect Superman to have 110 STR (100 kilotons).  The Flash has to have 12 SPD and 30" Running.

 

Those things are easy when you have unlimited points, but if you're character has that so do your enemies.  Suddenly you're tearing lifting skyscrapers and using them as baseball bats.

 

350 Points characters are a bit more reasonable, but here is a question.  How many points is the Active Maximum?  Traditionally it's 75 Points, and that means most Bricks are going to have 75 STR, and 35 PD.  

 

250 Points characters usually have 60 Points Maximums, and a Brick would be at 60 STR, and 30 PD.  The more points you have the more points go into your major attack and defenses.  How many of the points left over actually go for skills, and other "Character Background" skills?  

 

The more points you have, the bigger you build.

Our 250pt characters were Active Maximum of 75 back in the 4e days. Of course we had a Cap of DC12 and a max PD of 30. Usually the extra points were used for Reduced Endurance or for making powers that didn't quite fit under 60 active.

 

So you DON'T necessarily build bigger if you have more points. Some players know to build Broader. Which is to have more skills and greater flexability in powers. Again it also means that you can abandon 90% of PC's having an OIF (Magical or Technological Device that gives Powers).

 

I see the difference between the very lean characters that you build Cassandra, and when I take the same characters and build 6e Versions of them. I always add skills that I feel that the Hero would have. KS, Sci, etc. CK, AKs etc. It's a difference in philosophy. I also notice that you use some pretty innovative ways to write up powers to get them under that cap, where I tend to write characters up as obviously as possible. There's nothing wrong with your way or my way, it's just different.

 

From what I can see Published 6e Characters are still DC12, CV 9, Def 22, Spd 5 average that characters have been at least since 4e. That power level has been my default for so long it's actually hard to write supers for more or less power.

[massey]

While I prefer homages for actual play, I dispute that "fully acceptable versions" are impossible on limited points.

 

Once again: "starting points give starting characters".

 

There is, almost invariably, a world of difference between Awesome Dude as he appeared in Awesome Comics #1, and how he appeared in #359. But he was still Awesome Dude in his first appearance.

 

If a character design allows the character to do everything Awesome Dude did in Awesome Comics #1 (and preferably #2, #3, and as many other issues as possible), then it is "fully acceptable" in my view.

 

Build Apollo from the Authority.  Now I haven't read the issue of Stormwatch where he first appears, but in the Authority #2 he tears up a chunk of concrete that appears (using Apollo for scale and assuming he's about 6 1/2 feet tall) to measure about 45 feet by 60 feet by 12 feet.  Going with an average density of concrete at 150 lbs per cubic foot, that means he's lifting (calculator) about 2400 tons.  He doesn't really appear to be pushing, so that means he's gonna need about an 85 Strength.

 

Don't forget incinerating evil clone guys with his heat vision.  Don't forget to buy the Carrier (at 50 miles long and 35 miles wide, it will have 40 levels of size, and then it sits in another dimension and is easily defended, so it spends about 50 points for its location).

 

Remember, it's not that Apollo is that powerful, he just didn't start publication back in the 30s.

[assault]

You can't do the Spectre either. It doesn't change my point.

 

I can't directly respond to the Apollo example, since I don't have the material to hand. For the Carrier at least, I would budget zero points.

[massey]

It does go directly to your point.  Apollo is actually less powerful than pre-52 Superman.  He got his butt whooped by Captain Atom in their crossover.  It's not that Apollo is that powerful, it's that he starts out at that power level.  You can't pull out a 1938 comic with Apollo in it and tell a player "See?  You can play this guy.  You can leap an 1/8th of a mile and everything."

 

I think it's disingenuous.  It's like someone saying they want to play Batman and you give them the character sheet of a rich 8 year old whose parents have just been killed.  "See, Batman started here too."

[massey]

Oh, and a way to do Supes on 250, if you really have to.

 

Solar Charging:  Aid 5d6, Can Add Maximum Of 80 Points, Only 1/2 effect to Body, Ego, Pre (-0), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Hour; +1), all kryptonian powers simultaneously (+2) (300 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2), Can only charge in direct sunlight (-1/4)

 

Real cost: 171 points

 

--

 

Give your guy a tiny multipower with movement in it (Flight, megascale Flight, Tunnelling, etc) and another tiny multipower with heat vision and superbreath.  Put a -1/4 "only when has some sort of solar charge" on them.  Give him a package of inherent super-abilities (like +2 telescopic vision, +1 Per roll, 2/2 damage resistance, 1" kb resistance) on the same limitation.  With some decent starting physical stats (like 20 Str, 12 Dex, 15 Con, 5 PD and ED, that sort of thing) you'll make a convincing Superman.  The only things you'll be lacking are the exotic senses because they don't benefit from Aid.  So you'll have to buy your X-Ray Vision separately.

[Crusher Bob]

Would it be worth reducing strength to just lifting things (and make it costs 0.5 or 0.25 or 0.2 points) and make everyone buy Hand attacks if they want to punch people really hard?  That does get around the scaling problem of really strong heroes being totally out of the combat scale with everyone else.

 

Is everything that STR does that hand attack doesn't worth only 0.2 points?

[Ninja-Bear]

Massey the reason that Apollo got his butt whooped by Capt. Atom was that the writer decided that it should happen. And counterpoint to Apollo, go to public domain of superheroes and many can not only be built on 250 pts but even down to 150 pts! So the question is is Apollo an exemption or a rule?

[Greywind]

How they are built depends on the bias of the adapter.

[massey]

Massey the reason that Apollo got his butt whooped by Capt. Atom was that the writer decided that it should happen. And counterpoint to Apollo, go to public domain of superheroes and many can not only be built on 250 pts but even down to 150 pts! So the question is is Apollo an exemption or a rule?

 

The only reason anything happens in comics is because the writer decides it should happen.  So?  I've read about the first 50 issues or so of the Authority, I think I have a pretty good handle on how powerful the character is.  He's an Almost-Superman who loses his charge a lot faster in heavy combat.

 

But the point with Apollo applies to a ton of modern characters.  Pick almost any character who 1) starts out as an adult, and 2) was created in the last 20 years.  Chances are they start out at their normal power level.  The DC characters in the 1940s, and the Marvel characters in the 1960s, were basically the first heroes in their published universes (yeah I know about Cap and the Sub-Mariner, but they get re-introduced after the FF and Spidey have already set the stage).  Yeah you can build beginning Superman on 250, but he's going to spend the first 10 years of his career fighting bank robbers and no one else has any super powers.  He's the only guy in the world built on more than 100 points.  Probably doesn't fit very well into your Champions campaign world.

[TheQuestionMan]

The point is, or rather Character Points is 250pts almost requires Min-Maxing. Where as 350pts, without changing Campaign Power Levels encourages more rounded Character Designs.

 

IMOHO

 

QM

[Cassandra]

Final answer for me.

 

I like building 250 Points characters.

[Cassandra]

Let's look at some of Superman's potential skills, perks, and talents.

 

Navigation [Air] because he flies all over the world at super speed.  3 Points

 

FB: Press Pass because Clark Kent's a reporter and this gives him access to potential situations that might need Superman.  1 Point

 

Rep: Superhero 14- because Superman is well know and popular.  3 Points

 

FB: International Police Powers because Superman is trusted.  5 Points

 

Disguise 8- because no one thinks Clark Kent is Superman.  1 Point

 

AK: Metropolis because that's where is lives.  2 Points

 

AK: Smallville because that's where is was raised.  2 Points

 

Contact: Batman 11- because he's part of the World's Finest Team.  5 Points (Batman is extremely useful)

 

Lang: Native Kryptonian which he learned from ship.  4 Points

 

KS: Krypton 11- which he learned at the Fortress.  2 Points

 

PS[iNT]: Reporter because Clark's good at what he does and is a fast typer.  3 Points

 

31 Points so far.

 

Here are a few extras

 

Universal Translator because he has a super mind and travels in space.  20 Points

 

Navigation [space] because he travels in space.  1 Point added to Navigation [Air]

 

Eidetic Memory because he has a super mind.  5 Points.

 

57 Points

 

Now, ask yourself how many of these skills would your Superman really need, and how many more skills do you think he should have.