250 vs 350 5E Characters

[Ninja-Bear]

Really I think this discussion can be sumed up as this: if 250 pt. does what you need, then its enough. If its not and 350 pt does the job then go for it and of course if even if thats enough then adjust as needed.

[Cassandra]

Supergirl (Silver Age)

 

Val Char Cost

50 STR 40

18 DEX 24

25 CON 30

10 BODY 0

13 INT 3

11 EGO 2

20 PRE 10

18 COM 4

20 PD 10

20 ED 15

4 SPD 12

15 REC 0

50 END 0

48 STUN 0

Total Characteristics Cost: 150 Points

 

Cost Skills

3 Acting 13-

2 AK: Metropolis 11-

2 AK: Midvale 11-

5 Eidetic Memory

5 FB: International Police Powers

2 KS: Krypton 11-

4 Lang: Native English

0 Lang: Native Kryptonian

3 Navigation [Air & Space] 12-

2 Rep: Superheroine 11-

2 SS: Psychology 11-

20 Universal Translator 12-

Total Skills Cost: 50 Points

 

Cost Powers

15 Damage Resistance 20 rPD 10 rED

50 Multipower (50 Points)

4 u) EB 8d6, Variable Special Effects [Heat/Cold] (+1/4), Variable Disadvantages (-1/4)

4 u) FTL Travel 1,000,000 LY/Year [2 LY/Minute], Cost END Only To Activate (-1/4)

2 u) Force Field +5 rPD +5 rED, Invisible [sight] (+1/2), No END Persistent (+1)

1 u) Healing: Regeneration 1 BODY/Turn

2 u) STR +20, 1/2 END (+1/4)

5 u) Tunneling 10" DEF 10

12 ES: Microscopic Sight 10x, Telescopic Hearing +2, Telescopic Sight +2, Ultrasonic Hearing

7 ES: N-Ray Sight [Lead], Cost END (-1/2)

7 ES: RPT, IAF: Concealed Radio (-1/2)

24 Flight 10", Variable Advantages (+1/2), [Megascale 1km, 1/2 END, or Use Underwater Only (-1/4)]

9 LS: High Pressure, High Radiation, Intense Cold, Intense Heat, Low Pressure/Vacuum

8 LS: Self Contained, Cost END Only To Activate (-1/4)

Total Powers Cost: 150 Points

 

Total Cost:350 Points

 

200+ Disadvantages

15 DNPC: Dick Malverne (Unaware Normal) 8-

15 DNPC: Fred & Edna Danvers (Normal) 8-

10 DNPC: Lena Thorul (Unaware Useful Normal) 8-

10 DNPC: Zor-El & Allura In-Ze (Slightly Less Powerful) 8-

10 Hunted: Brainiac (As Powerful) 8-

10 Hunted: Lex Luthor (As Powerful) 8-

5 PhyL: Undergoes Random Minor Mental Or Physical Changes Lasting Up To 24 Hours After Each New Exposure To Red Kryptonite (Infrequently/Slightly)

20 PsyL: Code Of The Hero (Very Common/Strong)

20 PsyL: Code Versus Killing (Common/Total)

10 PsyL: Must Live Up To Family Reputation For Achievement (Uncommon/Strong)

10 SocL: Secret Identity [Kara Zor-El/Linda Lee Danvers] (Occasionally/Major)

5 Suscept: Green Kryptonite, 1d6 STUN/Minute (Uncommon)

10 Vuln: Magic, 1 1/2x STUN (Common)

Total Disadvantages Cost: 350 Points

[assault]

Obviously in a single game universe, villains and heroes will be balanced against each other. So Cassandra's builds need to be compared with Cassandra's builds, mine with mine, and so on. Officially published characters aren't an objective standard.

 

However, there are benchmarks that are a bit more resilient. Normals are fairly consistently defined across universes, and so are the weapons they can use against heroes.

 

There's wriggle room even there though. If a tank never appears in a particular campaign, it doesn't matter how a hero would fare when matched against one. The same for a nuke. If a game is set fairly narrowly in a particular urban environment, it probably doesn't matter if a character can't out fly a fighter jet either.

 

On the other hand, a character might be need to be able to interact correctly with a sports car, a helicopter or a speedboat.

 

Or perhaps an airliner. Of course, an airliner in an urban context is likely to be coming in to land, taking off, or just circling around in a queue, and thus not travelling at full speed. Weasel room applies. But there's also a good chance that our hero might need to be able to stop it crashing! That means our "Superman" would need a certain level of minimum strength to be credible, even in a constrained, incredibly favourable, limited environment. OK, maybe he might just need to be able to save a Learjet or something of the sort...

 

We can cheat hugely, but there's a point too far.

 

Invulnerability is another thing. Even if the local thugs don't have access to RPGs or SAMs, they can have military grade weapons. Sure, most of them won't, but eventually somebody is going to use something more serious against the heroes that are getting in their faces. It helps if you are using limited Stun modifiers, like the ones that are standard in 6e, rather than the original range. But that is an issue at any power level.

 

Furthermore, most normal opponents are likely to be fairly clueless gangsters and petty criminals, who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. A lot of the firepower directed at our heroes is likely to be wasted. There will be more formidable criminals though. Some will have military training, and others are just better than average shots. These are likely to be the ones landing hits on the heroes.

 

Looking at this, I'm starting to like the look of Golden and Silver Age settings, where the vehicles and weapons are a bit weaker.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think the published equipment from those periods is particularly convincing, being too strong compared to modern gear, IMHO. But the "no tanks/cannon/fighters" restriction covers most of that up....

[Tasha]

At 250pts I find myself limited at the beginning with the choice of Super Skilled or Super Powered.

 

Hmmm...

 

QM

Which is why our 4e group went to 300 points. So we could build cool superheroes that have a decent variety of non combat skills.

[Cassandra]

Obviously in a single game universe, villains and heroes will be balanced against each other. So Cassandra's builds need to be compared with Cassandra's builds, mine with mine, and so on. Officially published characters aren't an objective standard.

 

However, there are benchmarks that are a bit more resilient. Normals are fairly consistently defined across universes, and so are the weapons they can use against heroes.

 

There's wriggle room even there though. If a tank never appears in a particular campaign, it doesn't matter how a hero would fare when matched against one. The same for a nuke. If a game is set fairly narrowly in a particular urban environment, it probably doesn't matter if a character can't out fly a fighter jet either.

 

On the other hand, a character might be need to be able to interact correctly with a sports car, a helicopter or a speedboat.

 

Or perhaps an airliner. Of course, an airliner in an urban context is likely to be coming in to land, taking off, or just circling around in a queue, and thus not travelling at full speed. Weasel room applies. But there's also a good chance that our hero might need to be able to stop it crashing! That means our "Superman" would need a certain level of minimum strength to be credible, even in a constrained, incredibly favourable, limited environment. OK, maybe he might just need to be able to save a Learjet or something of the sort...

 

We can cheat hugely, but there's a point too far.

 

Invulnerability is another thing. Even if the local thugs don't have access to RPGs or SAMs, they can have military grade weapons. Sure, most of them won't, but eventually somebody is going to use something more serious against the heroes that are getting in their faces. It helps if you are using limited Stun modifiers, like the ones that are standard in 6e, rather than the original range. But that is an issue at any power level.

 

Furthermore, most normal opponents are likely to be fairly clueless gangsters and petty criminals, who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. A lot of the firepower directed at our heroes is likely to be wasted. There will be more formidable criminals though. Some will have military training, and others are just better than average shots. These are likely to be the ones landing hits on the heroes.

 

Looking at this, I'm starting to like the look of Golden and Silver Age settings, where the vehicles and weapons are a bit weaker.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think the published equipment from those periods is particularly convincing, being too strong compared to modern gear, IMHO. But the "no tanks/cannon/fighters" restriction covers most of that up....

 

If Tanks and other weapons were limited to the same 60 Active Points Maximum as the heroes then it wouldn't' be an issue.

[assault]

If Tanks and other weapons were limited to the same 60 Active Points Maximum as the heroes then it wouldn't' be an issue.

 

I could see that in a Golden Age game. Baron Von Evil's Secret Nazi Invasion Force is more likely to be equipped with obsolescent light tanks than Tigers.

 

Aside from that, though, there is a problem of diminishing returns. If you can't use published equipment in your campaign because of the power level that you have set, there's a point at which you've just made work for yourself. Designing characters and equipment is fun though, so that's not necessarily a problem. On the other hand, it might suggest that you should rethink your power levels.

 

There has been a creep in power levels with respect to vehicles and suchlike. The key breakpoint was actually between 4th edition and 5th, so it's probably a Steve Long related effect. For better or worse it means that characters from 5e and 6e exist in a higher powered world than those from previous editions, so they probably do need extra points to remain at the same relative power level.

 

So spend that extra hundred points on attacks, defenses and movement powers, not on skills and frills.

[Ninja-Bear]

I once sugggested before that maybe tanks and such should have a Vul. 1 1/2 Body to "super powers". One point was that maybe super power was too broad of a special effect.

[assault]

The topic has been kicked around a few times, of course.

 

I'm not incredibly thrilled by such modifications, but without them there's another balance problem.

 

Attacks that can shred a tank can also shred a hero that isn't "invulnerable". And that's not just a problem for Batman types, but for anyone who isn't Superman, Green Lantern, Iron Man or the Hulk.

 

It takes the game out of the "sweet spot", where PCs are reasonably balanced against each other.

 

That's probably why my characters differ from Cassandra's - she builds at a power level below what I consider to be the sweet spot, which is largely defined by the economics of character design.

[assault]

I'm considering changing to 350 points, and throwing the extra points into tank punching and plane racing.

 

I'll have to check out the books, but I think it's possible without breaking existing power relationships.

 

If I do that though, it's a radical enough change that I might as well change to 6e, and converting to 6e sucks up a lot of points if you are a committed abuser of figured characteristics. So my characters are likely to lose a bit of power in the conversion. In short: my 250 point 5e characters are likely to become 400 point 6e characters.

 

Unfortunately, I have also rough, sketchy draft versions of both the 1958 "fresh off the spaceship" version of Supergirl, and the 1967 version of Batgirl. Both come in at 250 points. Unfortunately, getting more compatibility between them suggests going to 350 points. Then they would rule. The team.

 

But Supergirl wouldn't be able to punch tanks.

 

Filing off the serial numbers would help of course. That would raise the question of what their homages should be called.

 

It's tempting to call the "Maid of Might" "Mighty Maid". Of course, no woman in her right mind would call herself that, but I'm neither of those. So "Mighty Maid" it is, and I would totally play her in a game.

 

The "Dominoed Daredoll" is a bit more awkward. Nothing comes to mind.

[Ninja-Bear]

Assault when I suggested the vulnerability to tanks and such, I was referring to inanimate objects not other people. ; )

[massey]

I've been writing up a lot of Marvel and DC characters lately.  Instead of using any specific conversion mechanic, I've been trying to judge their power scale on my own, and then try to fit them into the existing 5th edition setting as far as the style of the build.  In other words, the old conversion system for the DC Heroes game usually gave most characters a 20+ Int and Ego, even if they were just a normal hero.  I'm trying to avoid stat inflation with these writeups, especially on things that can't really be gauged except against one another (what does a 26 Ego look like vs a 30?).

 

Certain aspects of some characters are still well beyond standard Champions power norms.  Thor and Superman would lay waste to anyone not named Dr Destroyer or Takofanes (and honestly Supes could take Dr. D and Thor could take the archlich).  But those come from fairly well established power levels for those two characters.

 

But I tried to use existing Champions characters as a basis, especially when those characters are a very obvious homage to a comic character.  As a result, Cyclops looks a whole lot like Oculon.  Jean Grey looks a whole lot like Mentalla, and Magneto takes his cues from Gravitar.  I did not skimp on points -- if a character has clearly demonstrated European Literature from the 1830s on a 15 or less, then he has it and it goes on his character sheet.  I avoided charging heroes for contacts with other supers unless they were well outside of their normal campaign (Cyclops, as an X-Man, does not pay for any contacts within the Marvel mutant subsetting -- he would have to pay to know Dr Strange or the Silver Surfer however).  I didn't try to cram things into power frameworks just to save costs, if it looks like a multipower, it was built as a multipower.  If he just has a bunch of weird powers that he can use in different combinations, then that's how he was bought.

 

Generally, these are the point levels I needed to build the characters "right":

 

Early New Mutants: 250 points (except for Magik and Danielle Moonstar, who both needed 350 to get their powers to work right).  These characters still have pretty obvious holes and are very underskilled.

 

The X-Men tend to start at about 450 and go up from there.  Cyclops is the cheapest of the big names at 490 points, Jean (non-Phoenix Force) is the most expensive at 700.  Haven't finished the Xavier writeup yet.

 

Avengers are typically in the same range, but the heavy hitters are more expensive.  Iron Man is 991 points (and the writeup is very comprehensive -- he can do everything Iron Man can do).  Thor is over 1300.

 

The JLA normally don't come in less than 500 points.  The average for that team is the highest, with a lot of characters being 600 or 700 points, and the heavy hitters going up from there.  Batman is 1100, as is Wonder Woman.  Martian Manhunter clocks in at 1375, and Superman is 1975 points.

 

Silver Surfer and Doctor Strange are the highest point characters so far, at 2000 and 2050 points, respectively.

[Cassandra]

I'm considering changing to 350 points, and throwing the extra points into tank punching and plane racing.

 

I'll have to check out the books, but I think it's possible without breaking existing power relationships.

 

If I do that though, it's a radical enough change that I might as well change to 6e, and converting to 6e sucks up a lot of points if you are a committed abuser of figured characteristics. So my characters are likely to lose a bit of power in the conversion. In short: my 250 point 5e characters are likely to become 400 point 6e characters.

 

Unfortunately, I have also rough, sketchy draft versions of both the 1958 "fresh off the spaceship" version of Supergirl, and the 1967 version of Batgirl. Both come in at 250 points. Unfortunately, getting more compatibility between them suggests going to 350 points. Then they would rule. The team.

 

But Supergirl wouldn't be able to punch tanks.

 

Filing off the serial numbers would help of course. That would raise the question of what their homages should be called.

 

It's tempting to call the "Maid of Might" "Mighty Maid". Of course, no woman in her right mind would call herself that, but I'm neither of those. So "Mighty Maid" it is, and I would totally play her in a game.

 

The "Dominoed Daredoll" is a bit more awkward. Nothing comes to mind.

 

What about Mighty Girl?

 

My Supergirl (Silver Age) build on this thread couldn't punch a tank, but with 70 STR she can flipped then upside down, and easily bend their main guns.

 

Daredoll by itself is a good name.

[Cassandra]

Regarding Comic Book Characters I think we have to ask ourselves just how powerful are they really?  Can they be taken down by a normal human?

 

Invisible Woman was knocked out with a vase by a housewife.

 

Wonder Woman has been knocked out by a blow to the back of the head numerous times.

 

Batman, Moon Knight, Punisher, etc. have all been knocked out and captured.

 

Granted they were all caught off guard, and that's the point.  A character built on 350 points is unlikely to ever been threatened by a normal, and would soon look upon them as ants.  

 

That's the villains job.

[Greywind]

And how many of those instances were plot points? You know, those little stickler points that a writer throws in to tell the story that he wants to tell?

[massey]

Well, in real life you're very unlikely to be knocked out by being hit by a vase, even in the back of the head.  Likely it will hurt a lot and break the vase.

 

But let's try to stat it up a bit.

 

Housewife hits Invisible Woman with a vase.  Housewife has 10 Str (as an average, normal human, not reflective of actual housewife strength).  Housewife picks up a vase, in this case a 2D6 hand attack, OAF fragile.  Housewife rears back and swings vase as hard as she can -- haymaker maneuver.  This gives us a total of 8D6.

 

Invisible Woman has, for sake of argument, 8 PD.  She has a level or two of combat luck as well, and then some pretty pimpin' force fields.  The force fields aren't up, because she's surprised.  The combat luck doesn't apply, because she's surprised and the GM rules she's not paying a bit of attention.  Since she's not in combat, she also takes x2 Stun.  So 8D6, or 28 Stun on average, multiplied by 2 for surprise, gives us 56 Stun.  Invisible Woman has 8 PD all the time, meaning she takes 48 Stun past defenses. Likely that's more than she has.

 

For certain genres, a blow to the back of the head like that pretty much equals instant KO for anybody.  It's not a statement on the power level of any given individual, it's the way the rules of the story work.

[bubba smith]

perhaps the vase hi was supposed to be the proverbial lucky punch ""

[Grailknight]

Regarding Comic Book Characters I think we have to ask ourselves just how powerful are they really?  Can they be taken down by a normal human?

 

Invisible Woman was knocked out with a vase by a housewife.

 

Wonder Woman has been knocked out by a blow to the back of the head numerous times.

 

Batman, Moon Knight, Punisher, etc. have all been knocked out and captured.

 

Granted they were all caught off guard, and that's the point.  A character built on 350 points is unlikely to ever been threatened by a normal, and would soon look upon them as ants.  

 

That's the villains job.

 

Looking at normals like ants is not linked to how many points a character has. Attitudes like this are what makes one a hero or villain.

[Cassandra]

Looking at normals like ants is not linked to how many points a character has. Attitudes like this are what makes one a hero or villain.

 

 

The problem is that the PCs might start having contempt for Normals if they are built on too many points.

[Grailknight]

The problem is that the PCs might start having contempt for Normals if they are built on too many points.

 

Then I would say the PC's are becoming villains. If fear of the authorities is the only thing keeping them in line, they were never heroes in the first place.

 

Otherwise, how do you explain all the 250 pt villains they can beat?   Do all really experienced heroes go to the Darkside?

[TheQuestionMan]

That is a Player issue not a Power Issue

 

Imoho

 

QM

[assault]

Assault when I suggested the vulnerability to tanks and such, I was referring to inanimate objects not other people. ; )

 

Yes. I was talking about what happens when you don't use the vulnerability, and bump attacks up instead.

[assault]

A modifiction of something I wrote earlier.

There has been a creep in power levels with respect to vehicles and suchlike. The key breakpoint was actually between 4th edition and 5th, so it's probably a Steve Long related effect. For better or worse it means that characters from 5e and 6e exist in a higher powered world than those from previous editions, so they probably do need extra points to remain at the same relative power level.

 

I had a look at the tanks in the Hero System Vehicle Sourcebook last night. They're not quite as bad as I thought. The earlier the tank the more PC scaled they are, unsurprisingly. So early WW2 vehicles are decent encounters for starting point Golden Age characters. Silver Age would be more awkward. None are explicitly described, but I would tend to rate them closer to late WW2 era vehicles than things like the M1 series.

 

Damaging these things while remaining inside the suggested DC limits would be tricky. On the plus side, the WW2 era vehicles don't have Hardened defenses. Presumably this would apply to Silver Age ones too. Hulk Smash!

[Ninja-Bear]

Another thought I had Assault was that to damage say a side of the tank, one could use the break limbs formula. Really to damage a tank you don't need to break the whole body just part like yoy don't use the whole body to break a limb just a part.

[Ninja-Bear]

Fwiw I use classic enemies as a template for powers to skills ratio for my current enemies.

[JmOz]

 Regarding Dr D and crew.

 

 Back in 1st - 4th he was an "Experienced Team Foe".  Such as Dr Doom, Magneto, Trigon, Amazo

 

Now in 5th - 6th he has become something more, he is the "Company Crossover Villain", Such as Anti-monitor, Onslaught, etc...

 

The background fiction has changed to match this by the way, the Battle of Detroit is DEFINATLY a company wide crossover