250 vs 350 5E Characters

[massey]

Over the years I've written up a lot of Marvel and DC characters in Champions.  I've gone back and forth with a lot of different design philosophies.

 

Currently, my Batman has 250 points of just skills.  You've got languages (remember, he's a world traveller who trained in Tibet and Japan, and a businessman who regularly deals with overseas corporations).  He's a scientist.  He has lots of random knowledge skills (how else can he decipher the Riddler's puzzles so easily).  I went over the writeup several times, trying to find things to trim, and every skill I had listed, I could think of numerous examples of when I'd seen him use it.  He's got 230 points worth of perks (Batmobile, Batcave, Batboat, Batplane, money, various contacts, Robin as a follower).  All told he's 1100 points.  But he can do virtually everything Batman can do.

 

Now, if you want a Batman-style character without worrying about being fluent in Mandarin Chinese, or having a 14 or less in literature, I have a 350 point character called the Huntsman who can fake being Batman okay.  He's just lacking a sidekick, and a cave (well, he can have a cave, there just won't be anything in it; same with his car, he has a black sports car that he bought with money, not points, so it doesn't do anything that a normal car doesn't do), and all the other Batman stuff.  I took a lot of shortcuts with how he is built, but it is pretty obvious who he is supposed to be.  I played him in a Champions game and he was fairly effective, despite spending a lot of points on looking the part.

 

Not every character should be built on the same amount of points.  The difference between the Hulk and Night Thrasher is not just one of how they chose to allocate their points.

[Cassandra]

Examples of 250 Points vs. 350 Points characters

 

 

Superman

 

Val Char Cost 

50 STR 40

15 DEX 15

25 CON 30

14 BODY 8

13 INT 3

10 EGO 0

20 PRE 10

18 COM 4

25 PD 15

15 ED 10

4 SPD 15

15 REC 0

50 END 0

52 STUN 0

Total Characteristics Cost: 150 Points

 

Cost Skills

2 AK: Metropolis 11-

2 AK: Smallville 11-

2 Contact: Batman 11-

5 FB: International Police Powers

1 FB: Press Pass

2 KS: Krypton 11-

4 Lang: Native Kryptonian

2 Navigation [Air] 12-

2 PS: Reporter 11-

3 Rep: Superhero 14-

Total Skills Cost: 25 Points

 

Cost Powers

10 Damage Resistance 10 rPD 10 rED

15 EC [Yellow Sun Energy]-15 Points

13 1) EB 6d6, Variable Special Effects [Heat/Cold] (+1/4), 2x END (-1/2), Variable Disadvantages (-1/4)

12 2) Flight 10", Variable Advantages (+1/2), [Megascale 1km, 1/2 END, or Use Underwater Only (-1/4)]

7 ES: N-Ray Sight [Lead], Cost END (-1/2)

5 ES: RPT, OAF: Radio (-1)

3 ES: Ultrasonic Hearing

10 LS: Extended Breathing [1 END/Turn], High Pressure, High Radiation, Intense Cold, Intense Heat, Low Pressure/Vacuum

Total Powers Cost: 75 Points

 

Total Cost: 250 Points

 

150+ Disadvantages

10 DNPC: Jimmy Olsen (Unaware Useful Normal) 8-

10 DNPC: Lois Lane (Unaware Useful Normal) 8-

10 Hunted: Lex Luthor (As Powerful) 8-

5 PhyL: Undergoes Random Minor Mental Or Physical Changes Lasting Up To 24 Hours After Each New Exposure To Red Kryptonite (Infrequently/Slightly)

20 PsyL: Code Of The Hero (Very Common/Strong)

20 PsyL: Code Versus Killing (Common/Total)

10 SocL: Secret Identity [Kal-El/Clark Kent] (Occasionally/Major)

5 Suscept: Green Kryptonite, 1d6 STUN/Minute (Uncommon)

10 Vuln: Magic, 1 1/2x STUN (Common)

Total Disadvantages Cost: 250 Points

 

 

Superman 

 

Val Char Cost

60 STR 50

18 DEX 24

30 CON 40

15 BODY 10

13 INT 3

11 EGO 2

20 PRE 10

20 COM 5

30 PD 18

22 ED 16

5 SPD 22

18 REC 0

60 END 0

60 STUN 0

Total Characteristics Cost: 200 Points

 

Cost Skills

2 AK: Metropolis 11-

2 AK: Smallville 11-

2 Contact: Batman 11-

5 Eidetic Memory

5 FB: International Police Powers

1 FB: Press Pass

2 KS: Krypton 11-

4 Lang: Native Kryptonian

2 Navigation [Air] 12-

2 PS: Reporter 11-

3 Rep: Superhero 14-

20 Universal Translator 12-

Total Skills Cost: 50 Points

 

Cost Powers

15 Damage Resistance 20 rPD 10 rED

15 EC [Yellow Sun Energy]-15 Points

20 1) EB 8d6, Variable Special Effects [Heat/Cold] (+1/4), 2x END (-1/2), Variable Disadvantages (-1/4)

12 2) Flight 10", Variable Advantages (+1/2), [Megascale 1km, 1/2 END, or Use Underrwater Only (-1/4)]

7 ES: N-Ray Sight [Lead], Cost END (-1/2)

12 ES: Microscopic Sight 10x, Telescopic Hearing +2, Telescopic Sight +2, Ultrasonic Hearing

7 ES: RPT, IAF: Concealed Radio (-1/2)

9 LS: High Pressure, High Radiation, Intense Cold, Intense Heat, Low Pressure/Vacuum

8 LS: Self Contained, Cost END Only To Activate (-1/4)

Total Powers Cost: 100 Points

 

 

Total Cost: 350 Points

 

200+ Disadvantages

10 DNPC: Jimmy Olsen (Unaware Useful Normal) 8-

15 DNPC: Jonathan & Martha Kent (Normal) 8-

10 DNPC: Lana Lang (Unaware Useful Normal) 8-

10 DNPC: Lois Lane (Unaware Useful Normal) 8-

10 Hunted: Brainiac (As Powerful) 8-

15 Hunted: Lex Luthor (As Powerful/NCI) 8-

20 PsyL: Code Of The Hero (Very Common/Strong)

5 PhyL: Undergoes Random Mental Or Physical Changes Lasting Up To 24 Hours After Each New Exposure To Red Kryptonite (Infrequently/Slightly)

20 PsyL: Code Of The Hero (Very Common/Strong)

20 PsyL: Code Versus Killing (Common/Total)

10 PsyL: In Love With Lois Lane (Uncommon/Strong)

10 SocL: Secret Identity [Kal-El/Clark Kent] (Occasionally/Major)

5 Suscept: Green Kryptonite, 1d6 STUN/Minute (Uncommon)

10 Vuln: Magic, 1 1/2x STUN (Common)

Total Disadvantages Cost: 350 Points

[massey]

But the problem is when you want to play Superman, and I want to play Stomp Man.

 

Stomp Man (250 pts)

 

Str  80

Dex  18

Con  28

Body  14

Int  10

Ego  10

Pre  20

Com  8

 

PD  30

ED  30

Spd  5

Rec  22

End 56

Stun 68

 

(16" leaping from Str)

 

+3 levels with punch, grab, haymaker

 

20/20 Damage Resistance

7" KB Resistance

 

--

 

Total: 250 pts

 

--

 

Stomp Man will beat both of the above Supermen at the same time.  But Stomp Man shouldn't be able to do that, because he's a one-note character.  He's the kind of guy Superman should slap around the block.  And that is the problem of putting everyone on the same number of points.

[assault]

I agree with massey. Superman was a 250 point character in 1938. Not any more.

 

That said, I spent a certain amount of yesterday designing an "early Justice League" version of Superman. He was powerful, but he was Worf.

[Hyper-Man]

I don't think anyone is saying that all characters in a campaign world need to be built on the same points. I think that idea should only apply to the PC's.

 

The best example of a logical power curve in the superhero media is that of the DC Animated Universe.  Beginning with Batman:TAS who could arguably be built on 250-300 points in 5e for his first appearance moving on to Superman:TAS whose 1st appearance which can be modeled on 350/5e & 400/6e.  By the time of their 1st crossover it's logical that Batman is the more experienced character but they might have total points of roughly the same value (~450-500).  By the beginning of the Justice League Animated Series they might be ~500-550 points.  By the end of the JLU series Superman is probably ~600-700 points. These aren't the comics JLA that could pull the moon out of its orbit (Divided We Fall: Superman, Wonder Woman & Green Lantern) but they are still the most powerful heroes on the planet and they worked.

[Ninja-Bear]

Grailknight did you happen to miss the part in CKC where you can adjust the power levels of the villians? For myself, it took me a long time to realize that the game system encourages players/GM to change villians to suit their needs and wants? Yes there is an official build but they aren't written in stone.

[Acroyear II]

My Champions campaign started in 1993, and has always used 250 points as the beginning level for all player characters. While we did convert from 4th Edition to 5th Edition, I did not allow new characters joining the campaign to be created on the new standard of 350 points. I've always felt that 250 points was a good starting level for characters as it reflected a novice hero beginning their career. And quite honestly, I've never had that much difficulty helping my players create the characters they wanted for a mere 250 points.

 

Granted, my campaign is still running, and from the get-go it was meant to be a long running campaign, so starting at 250 points allowed the players to have somewhere to go with all the points they would earn along the way. Last year one of my players retired her character, who had reached a total of 606 points and had been played for nearly 18 years in the campaign. She started a new character built on 250 points last Fall.

 

As I've been lucky to have a large number of players involved in my campaign, I've been able to observe a trend with some players who, when their characters reach a certain point level, become unsure how to build beyond that point level (usually around 375 to 400 points). This is usually because the character has become fully well-rounded with powers, skills, talents, and perks, at this point level. Obviously this does not affect all players in my campaign, and some have no trouble growing and expanding their characters no matter what their current point level is.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that the starting value of the player characters in your campaign should be based on how long you expect or want the campaign to run, and/or on how fast you intend to dole out experience points. If you want the player characters to be novice heroes with low-level abilities and powers, then 250 points is the way to go. If you want them to be certified and experienced heroes, then 350 is a good starting level. If you want them to be powerful, epic level heroes capable of taking on the likes of Mechanon or Holocaust in single combat, then perhaps a 475 starting level is good bet.

[tikiman]

I don't even think it matters if all PCs are built on the same number of points as long as everyone has something to do and is satisfied. I stopped doing the math long ago and just eyeball character sheets for abuses. Of course, this requires mature players who aren't just trying to min-max and a game that isn't just punch-ups. This works just fine if everyone is mature enough for it. Character points really don't matter.

[TheQuestionMan]

Character Concept vs Character Points - Always a tightrope of expectation and function.  

 

Player Perception vs Game Master Perception - A Player believes in what he needs and a Game Master expects.    

 

Gamer Preference vs Game Perception - Imagination meets Role Playing

 

 

Cheers 

 

 

QM 

[Cassandra]

I agree with massey. Superman was a 250 point character in 1938. Not any more.

 

That said, I spent a certain amount of yesterday designing an "early Justice League" version of Superman. He was powerful, but he was Worf.

 

Buffy had the same problem.  She would often get beaten the first time she fought someone, and then the next time would win.  The write up in Matt's Champions Page gave her a CSL: HTH Combat when she fought someone a second time.

[Cassandra]

But the problem is when you want to play Superman, and I want to play Stomp Man.

 

Stomp Man (250 pts)

 

Str  80

Dex  18

Con  28

Body  14

Int  10

Ego  10

Pre  20

Com  8

 

PD  30

ED  30

Spd  5

Rec  22

End 56

Stun 68

 

(16" leaping from Str)

 

+3 levels with punch, grab, haymaker

 

20/20 Damage Resistance

7" KB Resistance

 

--

 

Total: 250 pts

 

--

 

Stomp Man will beat both of the above Supermen at the same time.  But Stomp Man shouldn't be able to do that, because he's a one-note character.  He's the kind of guy Superman should slap around the block.  And that is the problem of putting everyone on the same number of points.

 

 

Actually "Stomp Man" is exactly the kind of character comic books writers have been coming up with to deal with superheroes.  It's up to the hero to get past there advantages and win.  

 

Are you sure his name isn't "Doomsday?"

[massey]

Actually "Stomp Man" is exactly the kind of character comic books writers have been coming up with to deal with superheroes.  It's up to the hero to get past there advantages and win.  

 

Are you sure his name isn't "Doomsday?"

 

Yeah, pretty sure.

 

So let's not do a brick.  Let's do an energy blaster.  Let's have him fight Cyclo Oculon from 4th edition  If we ditch his Missile Deflection and his Telescopic Vision, he's 251 points, so we'll make him ugly too.  Now he's 250.

 

Dex 20, Oculon goes first.  He fires with a 12 OCV.  He only misses on an 18.  Average damage is 42 Stun, which goes past 250 Supes' 15 ED and also exceeds his 25 Con.  Superman is stunned and loses his phase 12.  On phase 3, Oculon goes first again.  After his post-12 recovery, Superman has 40 Stun remaining.  Oculon shoots him again, doing 27 Stun past defenses and causing Superman to lose his phase 3.  On phase 5, Oculon goes again, and puts Supes down for the count.

 

Now perhaps, just perhaps Oculon rolls that 18 to hit and he misses.  Now Superman gets to go.  He runs forward and attacks Cyclo Oculon.  Let's say he uses his heat vision.  6D6 Energy Blast, rolls an average of 21 Stun.  Oculon takes 1 Stun, he's in trouble now.  Or maybe Superman will punch him in the face.  He does 10D6, and if he rolls average he does 35 Stun.  Oculon takes 20 Stun and is not stunned.  Oh wait, Superman needs to roll a 9 or less to hit Oculon.

 

--

 

I'm not trying to pick on Cassandra here, she is right that you can scale your characters as you see fit.  But the problem is that, contrary to all sense, a character who is by concept more experienced and with a greater variety of powers, always ends up less effective than the guy who only does one thing.  If they're built on the same number of points.

[Greywind]

At least that means the Legion has no end of recruits.

[Ninja-Bear]

Massey I see where you are goung with Oculon example however, he's not quite the choice that you may think he is. First I believe the 4th ed. stats you posted. I went and checked his original Enemies II apearence and they were roughly the same build. The interesting part is in EII Oculon is 282 pts! From my undersranding heroes of that age were 200pts. Therefore Oculon was designed to be tough. Also at that time 10D6 was common DC not 12 DC so in a sense Oculon at classic enemies didnt change to keep pace. Secondly and the major point which you already stated is you change adjust villians as needed for a game. This concept is also in classic enemies too.

[Grailknight]

Yes, I get that you can change the power level of the published villains, but:

 

1- Too much change and that villain isn't who he's supposed to be. He/she may no longer fit their campaign role.

 

2- The published CU sets the guidelines for newbie GM's and for writer's/contributors. The CU of 5th and 6th lacks balance for the apex villains. It makes it more difficult(not Impossible) to use without postulating powerful NPC heroes or resorting to hyper-optimized builds inappropriate to starting PCs.

 

3-If I have to rewrite or customize every villain or even half the villains, I'm better off writing my own. As a longtime Hero GM, I'm used to this, but this is a large barrier to newbies.(This is probably a good thing to post to the 7th edition thread.) Imagine trying to get a D&D or Pathfinder game going if you had to rewrite half the monster books

 

And the thing is, the power creep wasn't necessary at the apex level. 4th Edition Destroyer would still beyond the scope of starting PCs in 5th or 6th. He just wouldn't one shot kill over half the published CU.

[Grailknight]

Massey I see where you are goung with Oculon example however, he's not quite the choice that you may think he is. First I believe the 4th ed. stats you posted. I went and checked his original Enemies II apearence and they were roughly the same build. The interesting part is in EII Oculon is 282 pts! From my undersranding heroes of that age were 200pts. Therefore Oculon was designed to be tough. Also at that time 10D6 was common DC not 12 DC so in a sense Oculon at classic enemies didnt change to keep pace. Secondly and the major point which you already stated is you change adjust villians as needed for a game. This concept is also in classic enemies too.

 

Heroes of that era were 100pts. PLUS disadvantages. There were no caps on a category of Disadvantages but you got diminishing value after each two from that category. It was common(not universal) to run at 275pts and I saw extremes at 325pts. Add in foci, OIAID and Activations and you had heroes that were effectively in the 500-600 pt range.

[tikiman]

A lot of this talk seems to assume a PC or group of PCs should be able to defeat the big-deal villain in combat. It seems to me that a major trope of comic books is heroes who have to outwit the more-powerful villain rather than beat him in a fair fight.

[tikiman]

duplicate

[Greywind]

As Cassandra likes to point out, villains never fight fair.

 

There are some villains that the heroes tend to spoil their plans rather than beat conclusively.

 

Personally, I've never used Dr. Destroyer. Or Menton for that matter. I use the character compendiums as ideas for my own characters, or in a pinch, if I like the character, I'll throw them in.

[assault]

A lot of villains do fight fair, because they're too dumb or egotistical to do otherwise. But yes, aside from that, most of them try and stack things in their favour.

 

In a lot of cases that's because they simply aren't a match for their opposing heroes in a fair fight.

 

There are also cases when the villains outmatch the heroes, and have to be out thought. That's the hardest case to run in a game. It also requires the GM to allow the heroes to do this.

 

In the case of inflated villains with no inherent weaknesses, like Doctor Destroyer, there has to be a Death Ray or something that can explode or otherwise be turned against him. Otherwise he wins.

[massey]

Massey I see where you are goung with Oculon example however, he's not quite the choice that you may think he is. First I believe the 4th ed. stats you posted. I went and checked his original Enemies II apearence and they were roughly the same build. The interesting part is in EII Oculon is 282 pts! From my undersranding heroes of that age were 200pts. Therefore Oculon was designed to be tough. Also at that time 10D6 was common DC not 12 DC so in a sense Oculon at classic enemies didnt change to keep pace. Secondly and the major point which you already stated is you change adjust villians as needed for a game. This concept is also in classic enemies too.

You're missing the forest for the trees.

 

At 250 points, Superman is ending up with a 6D6 energy blast for his heat vision. That's basically a campfire, except not killing damage.

 

4th ed Oculon is a scrub. He has an average damage attack for a 250 character and below average defenses.

 

250 points simply does not allow the full range of abilities that experienced comic book heroes have. It's just not enough, and it results in watered down builds.

[TheQuestionMan]

Concept vs Effect 

 

Cheers  

 

 

QM  

[Hyper-Man]

You're missing the forest for the trees.

 

At 250 points, Superman is ending up with a 6D6 energy blast for his heat vision. That's basically a campfire, except not killing damage.

 

4th ed Oculon is a scrub. He has an average damage attack for a 250 character and below average defenses.

 

250 points simply does not allow the full range of abilities that experienced comic book heroes have. It's just not enough, and it results in watered down builds.

 

I don't think Cassandra's builds are designed to be balanced vs. the published Champions villains so making such comparison proves little. 

 

Regardless, here is a more finely tuned 250 point starting version of Superman that would have a better chance in your test.

The Man of Steel 250.HTML

The Man of Steel 250.hdc

[Ninja-Bear]

Grailknight you have good points

 

1. Definately something you want to keep an eye on but that is the same as creating heroes too. Since for me most of the alterations are just ratio changes, this hasn't been a problem for me.

 

2. But as a counterpoint, villians are not just for newbie heroes too. Some villians are made for experienced heroes.

 

3. Oh I can feel frustrated about changing or at least looking at another villian to make sure that it falls into my guidelines. I have this little argument in my head, is it worth it? And lately, its been yes. One reason, I don't like creating villians from scratch. I don't like my own creation.

 

Lastly though I don't think Dr. Destroyer really is a villian that makes your point. You said about Dr. D and newbie heroes. Unless you're really sadistic, newbies shouldnt face Dr. D at all. Thats why in 4th you have Prof. Muerte as a erstaz until your heroes become more experienced. As 4th ed put it, when Dr. D shows up " be afraid, be very afraid".

[Ninja-Bear]

Massey 12D6 was not an average attack. It is a 60 pt power, maximum for suggested campaign. It was average in the sense that a lot of villians anf almosy all starting 60pt power.

 

Im guessing that Oculon has lower defenses as a weakness on purpose. A glas cannon so to speak.

 

Again you're talking about experienced character. Most peoplr are saying that 250 pt is fine for beginning characters. I do agree that more poinys can allow you to broaden more powers/skills/perks to a point.