Effects with in the system question ?

[Basic204]

So fa I'm loving the hero system but I have a question. It seems like the people I run it with always say to do something you have to buy an effect to do it. I wanted to know if you really need to buy every effect just to do something.

 

An example 

 

I use super strength to swing a sword to cut off a speedsters leg. I hit him but apparently I'm being told I need to use transform to take off his leg to make it so he can not run on his to legs. Is this correct ?

 

I feel like you should not need all these effects to do something when his leg should come off if I hit it that had with a sword. 

 

Another example

 

Using ice blasts to cool off a hot object. I should not need dispel heat. When I already have ice blasts

[Greywind]

Generally, unless you pay for it, you don't get free benefits.

[Steve]

For the ice blasts effect, you can use the Power Skill to do tricks with your powers that are one-time things. If you want to do it as a recurring ability, get a multipower and put ice blasts as one power in it and a dispel as the other.

[Chris Goodwin]

For most of those things, especially if they're a one-time thing, the GM should use common sense, dramatic sense, and special effects.  If in the heat of battle you pick up a sword and try to lop off the speedster's leg, there are rules in the system to cover it, but if you want the ability to go around lopping off speedster legs any time, that's when you need to pay the points.  

 

Think of your brick character again.  If the environment allows it, you can pick up an I-beam or a manhole cover or a car and throw it at someone, but if you want to carry around a six-pack of manhole covers you have to buy them.  That's sort of the rule of thumb by analogy to any character type.  

[Basic204]

That seems kind of limiting to me. I play some one like the punisher to shoot the enemy's gun to destroy it I would need dispel for that 

[Greywind]

No. You take a Ranged Disarm ability based off your ability to shoot. Destroying their gun, then you'd need something other like Dispel, but there's no inherent reason that shooting a gun would destroy it.

[massey]

In the HERO system, Powers have a set effect.

 

Ranged Killing Attack shoots an attack that goes a certain distance and does a certain amount of damage, based on how many points you put into it.

 

The special effects of Powers may convey small bonuses in certain situations.  They may also carry small penalties.  For instance, if your RKA is defined as a "fire blast", and you are in a room with a gas leak, that fire blast may cause a tremendous explosion.  Your buddy who has an RKA "ice blast" does not get an explosion when he fires his attack.  This is not something that either of you have paid points for.  It is the result of the special effects of your powers and how they are interacting with the environment.  Exactly how they interact with the environment (how many dice will be in the explosion, how likely the explosion is to occur, etc) is up to the gamemaster.  You should talk with your gamemaster about how he sees your powers functioning.  If you wish to use a Power regularly in a way that is not covered by the set list of effects contained in the rulebook, you may need to purchase an additional power.

 

For example:

 

Fire Lad has a 3D6 RKA "fire blast".  Fire Lad is fighting in the aforementioned room with a gas leak.  The gamemaster decides that there is so much gas filling the room, that any sort of spark or open flame will trigger a 5D6 RKA Explosion, centered on the leaking gas pipe.  This is a significantly more powerful attack than Fire Lad has purchased.  Fire Lad can benefit from the environment (or perhaps not, perhaps Fire Lad doesn't want to set the room off like a bomb) by using his attack and setting off the existing gas.  Fire Lad shoots his attack, the room explodes (fortunately Fire Lad has Damage Reduction against fire and is unharmed), and the enemies are defeated.  Fire Lad's player thinks that was totally awesome.

 

In the next game session, Fire Lad is fighting another group of enemies in an apartment building.  Fire Lad runs over and busts open the gas line, allowing the apartment to fill with gas.  Fire Lad waits a turn and then shoots his fire blast, this time causing a 4D6 RKA Explosion (not as much gas escaped into the room this time, the GM says).  The GM rules that this is also an acceptable use of the environment.

 

In the game session after that, Fire Lad tries the same trick again.  Now the GM stops the game for a moment, and explains to Fire Lad's player that he's not going to let this trick work every time.  If he wants to regularly use such a powerful attack, he is going to need to purchase it.  It is not fair to the guys playing Ice Boy and Wind Kid that one player is able to use such a larger attack with this much frequency.  Fire Lad ignores the gamemaster and says "that's not my fault, tthis is how my powers work, this is what would really happen", and he tries it again.  This time, the GM rules that the building has proper ventilation, so there is no major gas buildup.  While there is a WHOOSH and a small burst of flame from the gas in the room when Fire Lad attacks, it has no in-game effect.  It is not enough to cause a damaging attack.

 

If Fire Lad wants to be able to blow things up with a huge explosion, he needs to buy it instead of counting on the GM to give it to him for free.

 

Back to your examples:

 

Legless, the elven speedster -- A person who has super-strength and a Hand Killing Attack can cut someone's leg off.  HERO has rules for disabling limbs.  I don't have the book in front of me.  Your ability to chop a guy's leg off is going to depend on your OCV (you'll take a penalty to target the speedster's leg), the damage you roll, and the speedster's Defense and Body.  If you have a 50 Str, and swing a 3D6+1 HKA adamantium katana at Mr. Speedy (total of 7D6-1 HKA), you hit his DCV with the penalty for targeting a location, and you roll 35 Body, the chances of you disabling his limb are probably pretty good.  Subtract Mr. Speedy's 10 resistant defense,  appy the damage to his 15 Body, and you've damn near killed him.  Look at the chart for disabling wounds, and that leg is probably toast.

 

Now, if you want to regularly do that, where severing dudes' legs is like, your thing, then you're going to want to buy that as a Power.  Major Transform is probably the most appropriate (you might also use a long-lasting Drain vs Running, or a few other things).  Otherwise you're going to be acting with a penalty to your OCV a lot, because those are the rules for targeting a location.  And you're going to be dependant on rolling well on the dice.  And you're going to run into speedsters who buy 25 resistant defense and Damage Reduction defined as "ducking out of the way at the last second".  And you won't be able to chop their legs off.

 

Oh, and Mr. Speedy is going to recover from his leg being chopped off.  Miracles of modern medicine and all that, somehow they reattach it, or grow him a new one, because while you disabled the limb, as soon as he recovers all of his Body, he will be okay.

 

Punisher doesn't shoot guns out of people's hands, unless it's with a bazooka ("They are no longer holding the gun") -- You can use a gun to shoot another gun, and destroy it.  The rules are located in the book under destroying a Focus.  If you roll to hit (at a penalty to your OCV, for targeting a gun) using your 1 1/2 D6 RKA pistol, you need to do more Body than the Focus has defense.  If you roll well enough, you can destroy a power that is containted within the device (in the case of a gun, usually RKA and that's it, but sometimes an OCV bonus as a laser sight or something).  If you don't roll well enough, you don't succeed.  If you buy Dispel versus guns, then you can benefit from the way the Dispel Power functions.  You aren't taking an OCV penalty, and you have a (potentially) more reliable way to get the effect you're looking for.

 

What do you mean there's no ice, you mean I gotta drink this coffee hot?  -- If you have an ice blast, and you want to cool off a hot object, this is probably within the boundaries of those "free effects" I talked about earlier.  Speak with your GM about it.  The cup of coffee that you are drinking (or the melting ice cream at the kid's birthday party, or the overheaded car engine) did not pay points to be hot.  That is important.  These are environmental effects that are useful for story purposes, but are probably not combat effects that are going to be used against you.  It is entirely appropriate to be able to cool off your Pepsi using your Energy Blast (basically a 1 pip EB).  These have no effect on combat and the rules encourage the GM to allow uses like this.  That's part of why you have an "ice blast" instead of just a generic EB.

 

Now, if by using your ice blast to cool off a hot object, you mean "I'm going to shoot Incinero-Droid, the Molten Metal Robot, and deactivate his 4D6 RKA Damage Shield", then your Energy Blast won't work, unless the Incinero-Droid has a specific limitation on his power that allows it to ("Damage Shield turns off when hit by powers that have special effect: cold or ice").  If by "cools off hot object", you mean freezing a puddle of water on the ground so that the bad guy slips on it, you're in the same position as Fire Lad in the gas-filled room scenario.  It may work once, but if you want it to work regularly you'll need to buy it.

 

Likewise, a brick who constantly grabs parked cars and throws them at his enemy would get Area of Effect on his Str, or maybe a few extra dice, because he's using the environment to his advantage.  But if he wants to do it every time, the GM is going to stop providing him with free cars.  "Nope, as you look around, you see this is a no parking zone.  Not a car for blocks."  A brick who wants to crush a piece of coal into a diamond to give to his girlfriend should be able to do that, but if he wants to start up a jewelry store he needs to buy the Wealth Perk.

[Ninja-Bear]

As to cutting off speedsters leg, look to impair/disable rules. As for ice blasts cooling things as others said one time or really minor cooling this can be covered under special effect but to super cool somerhing super hot then yes dispel.

[Tasha]

So fa I'm loving the hero system but I have a question. It seems like the people I run it with always say to do something you have to buy an effect to do it. I wanted to know if you really need to buy every effect just to do something.

 

An example 

 

I use super strength to swing a sword to cut off a speedsters leg. I hit him but apparently I'm being told I need to use transform to take off his leg to make it so he can not run on his to legs. Is this correct ?

 

I feel like you should not need all these effects to do something when his leg should come off if I hit it that had with a sword. 

 

Another example

 

Using ice blasts to cool off a hot object. I should not need dispel heat. When I already have ice blasts

 

For Damage effects it would depend on the Campaign rules your game is using.

ex 1.  In a gritty game that used hit location (or at least called shots) and Impairing and Disabling wounds, the person with the sword (or any weapon that could do enough body to the Speedster) could cut the speedster's leg off.  For most Superheroic Genre games such wounds (no matter how you buy the power) would not be appropriate. Except as a special plotline agreed to between the Speedster's player and the GM.

 

ex 2 most GM's would allow you to use ice powers (perhaps an ice blast that the PC Spread the damage dice to cover an area). I might have the PC make a Power Skill roll to use the blast in such a novel way. Using a power's special effect in novel ways is allowed by the rules, and most GM's would allow such things as long as they weren't used to unbalance things. Also, if the PC continued to use the power in this new way, I would make them buy the power. Either Dispel heat or Change Environment (or both).

[Lucius]

That's part of why you have an "ice blast" instead of just a generic EB.

This really cuts to the root of the matter. If someone with cold powers wants to cool a drink, or someone with fire powers wants to light a candle, then if the result makes sense for the way the character and their Powers are described, I for one wouldn't blink at allowing it.

 

Sometimes people do get carried away with thinking every little thing needs to be paid for with points. I once wrote up a bomb meant to destroy a building and included the secondary damage to people who might be in the building from the structure collapsing on them. I was told that was overkill.

 

As for cutting off someone's legs, that might be a question of how appropriate that is for the tone of the game you're playing. If it's a typical comic book superhero type of game, then heroes just don't do that kind of thing, and villains usually don't either. If it's a kind of game where that might be an appropriate thing to happen, then yes Hero System DOES have rules for targeting a specific body part and impairing or disabling it. You'll need to take a penalty to hit the legs, you'll have to meet the damage threshold for impairing or disabling, but you shouldn't have to spend points on a Major Transform or something like that.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Special Effect: Palindromedary

[GhostDancer]

As others stated, check with your GM.  That's the number one priority.

 

As Lucius indicated, not everything costs points.  Gauges and lights and such in vehicles are generally free, for example.  In a modern game, cell phones and wrist watches and such are usually free, too.

 

Impairing is an optional rule.  It's best for the GM to spell out which rules he is using before the game.  Not everyone wants that level of additional complexity.  Some groups use some optional rules and refrain from using others.  House rules may apply.

 

The tone of the game is relevant, as Lucius stated.  Not only is added complexity a consideration, it is also true that HERO began as Champions, focusing on four color games.  Dismemberment was not common in four color comics or games.  Also, not everyone carried much gear, and those who did were expected to pay for it, see utility belt, etc.  

 

Examples from our concluded Arsenal of Democracy four color game:

 

Pro

 

#1: Freebies  

 

Some gear is free.

 

Our past practice is generally if you don't have it written on your

character sheet and previously cleared by the GM, you don't have it.

If you have something on your person that your character doesn't have

on said sheet, I usually allow it, or an equivalent, at no point cost.

 

For example, let's say that as you sit at our game table, you have in

your pockets a cell phone and a Swiss army knife.  For our game, that translates as a notepad and a Swiss army knife.

 

#2: Our Captain Hero removed two bolas from the villainess Jaegerin.  In an unrelated fashion, our player previously paid for bolas on Captain Hero's character sheet.

 

"Put two extra bolas on your character sheet."

 

Con

 

#1: Captain Hero is a Captain America homage.  He is an Army captain in his Secret ID, Samuel Otto Jenkens.  "Why can't I carry around a rifle for free?  It's G.I."  

 

"Steve Rogers (Captain America's Secret ID) can carry around a rifle for free when he has guard duty or near the battle front or such.  He's a Private First Class.  Captain America does not carry a rifle around.  Also, Captain Jenkens sometimes carries a .45 semi-automatic pistol, not issued a rifle.  If you want Captain Hero to pack a pistol or a rifle, pay the points."

 

#2: Green Rook is largely a female Superman (Superma'am?).  She wrenched free an iron stanchion, with a spear-like point on it, from a fence surrounding a manor.  "Why can't I carry this around all the time?"

 

"You can.  It will cost you points, though."

 

"It shouldn't cost me points.  I just found it."

 

"You may carry and use it free until you get home.  You may put it over your fireplace mantel for free.  You may even carry it later for certain overt, immense threats.  You want to carry it routinely, cough up the points."

 

Neither player was charmed with these rulings, which were in place before they asked, and intended to reinforce the genre.  Superman does not carry a six-pack of manhole covers (thanks, Chris Goodwin) or re-rod around. Captain America does not carry a flame-thrower around.  Maybe your character does, and in some games this costs points.

 

Other games have more free gear, including weapons.  These are most often with Agent level points, and even then there are usually restrictions.  You generally can't start a game with a briefcase nuke.

 

 

 

 

 

[Tasha]

Champions was designed to model the comics that the Original Designers were reading at the time. Which means that Champions was meant to model Bronze Age Comics (champions was released in the early 80's). It is flexable enough that it covers the earlier ages very well.

[GhostDancer]

Yes, our Arsenal of Democracy was Golden Age WWII.  Champions / HERO can be great for Iron Age comics games and later, too.  I'm particularly fond of Shadows Over Detroit, our Dark Champions game.  

 

We've run a couple good ancient Chinese martial arts campaigns, and just started Fists of Vengeance, a Manchu vs. Shaolin game, great first session.

 

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

That seems kind of limiting to me. I play some one like the punisher to shoot the enemy's gun to destroy it I would need dispel for that 

 

 

No. You take a Ranged Disarm ability based off your ability to shoot. Destroying their gun, then you'd need something other like Dispel, but there's no inherent reason that shooting a gun would destroy it.

 

Or you target the opponent's gun and shoot it with your gun's RKA.  Both your and his gun have DEF and BOD - you CAN damage or destroy his gun by hitting it with a damaging attack.

 

As to cutting off speedsters leg, look to impair/disable rules. As for ice blasts cooling things as others said one time or really minor cooling this can be covered under special effect but to super cool somerhing super hot then yes dispel.

 

Impair/disable - an optional rule. If it's not in use, then such effects are probably not in keeping with the tone of the game, and I would then not allow Captain Crippler in the game, whatever construct he wanted to use for routinely lopping off his enemies' limbs.

 

This also has to be looked at from the other side. If you can routinely lop off an enemy's legs, why can't that Speedster rush up and gouge your character's eyes out with a Spork? And why can't that Super Fire opponent heat up the environment so much that all your ice melts and your ice powers are useless? The rules are the same for all the characters, PC and NPC alike.