Use of Transform to Change Character's Gender

[WistfulD]

 Women are, of course much weaker than men. While this is common knowledge, it might surprise you just how much weaker women are than men. Women would have a slightly higher dexterity, a slightly lower speed, and maybe some other things I haven't even thought of.

 

Have you met my wife? Seriously. She's freaky strong. 

 

While Multi-form strikes me as a perfectly acceptable way to create a character that can change genders, much of your above statement strikes me inaccurate. Yes, on average, women are less physically powerful than men. However, the statistical outliers (very strong women vs. very weak men) seem to average that out a bit. And I live out here in ranching and farming country, where the women are often very physically strong and capable of doing a "man's work" when needed. Which is often.

 

And I question your assertions about dexterity and speed. I'm pretty quick and nimble for an old guy, but somehow I don't see beating Serena Williams at... well, pretty much anything.

 

Jason

 

Don't play into his hands. Seriously, his second post on the site was dedicated to making a undeniably provocative statement about out-of-game controversial issues. You know the playbook for this.

 

Enjoy your short time here, HT.

[Lucius]

If one really must....

Male
(Total: 8 Active Cost, 1 Real Cost)

Stretching 0m, x3 body dimension (8 Active Points); Very Limited Body Part (-1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (INT Drain; -1/2), Cannot Do Damage (Unless you're doing it wrong; -1/2), Costs END To Maintain (Full END Cost; -1/2), Limited Power Refractory Period, must wait between activations (-1/2), Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; Some combination of; Gestures, Extra Time, Concentration, No Conscious Control, Charm Skill Roll (by appropriate other person) or Conditional (appropriate stimuli) etc; -1/2), no Noncombat Stretching (-1/4), No Velocity Damage (-1/4), Restrainable (Turn it off by turning him off; -1/4), Always Direct (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1)

 

Female

(Total: 24 Active Cost, 1 Real Cost)

Summon 8 1-point creatures, Inherent (+1/4), Persistent (+1/4) (24 Active Points); Extra Time (9 Months, -6), No Conscious Control (-2), 32 Charges which Never Recover (-1 3/4), Requires A Roll in the Hay (6- roll; -1 3/4), Side Effects (Side Effect affects both character and potentially at least one other person; Frequent, Incompetent DNPC if successful; -1 1/4), Side Effects (9 Months of gradually increasing sickness and debility as the host of the Summoned being's most parasitic phase; -1), Side Effects (Roll 2d6, apply that many dice of attack to Summoner (Gradually, sadistically, over a matter of hours); -1), Antagonistic Violent (-3/4), Restrainable (Only by means other than Grabs and Entangles; -1/4), Required Multiple Users (Summoner and at least one appropriately equipped person) (2 people; -1/4)

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary has a Y chromosome and a Y-not? chromosome

[CptPatriot]

Too funny, Lucius

[薔薇語]

Don't play into his hands. Seriously, his second post on the site was dedicated to making a undeniably provocative statement about out-of-game controversial issues. You know the playbook for this.

 

Enjoy your short time here, HT.

Undeniably provocative? Did we read the same post? I fear not.

 

It is not provocative to state that the average woman and the average man vary to predictable degrees. Men are, on average, stronger. Taking out the averages as a whole, men at their peak out preform women at their peak.

 

Does this mean any particular woman is weaker than any particular man? Nope. It just means that if we had a representative sample of a thousand women and a thousand men, the male group would be physically stronger, possess higher stamina, and maybe be faster (Are men on average faster?).

 

I don't know if there is much correlation between relflexes and sex, so that seems a bit dubious lest more data is provided.

 

Now how does that play into Hero Terms? Not well. The difference is too minor for Hero to actually capture. Perhaps a single point diff in STR, CON, and END at most. Certainly not woth the hassle of calculating. Even more so when we consider the fact that in HERO, all PCs, regardless of gender, start at tens which is already above human average.

 

La Rose.

[Nemblamenchisus]

It is surprising just how much stronger men are in upper body strength than women. I stress, lest I be lynched, that I refer to upper body strength, not any other physical or moral quality.

 

This post brings the data (pdf link, to paper from European Journal of Applied Physiology)

http://egitim.judo.gov.tr/Dosyalar/makaleler/-ENG-Hand-grip-strength-in-judo.pdf

 

Takeaways:

"the very strongest female athletes are barely above the median of grip strength for men.

The top 75th percentile of female athletes are below the bottom 25th percentile of men.  

Ten percent of women have stronger grips than the bottom five percent of men.

The very weakest male in the data set of nearly 1,700 males looks to be about at the 20th percentile for average women."

 

This from a study of grip strength, n=1654 men, 533 women (including trained athletes and untrained people).

 

There you have it. Frankly, a small guy can almost certainly beat a heftier-looking woman at arm-wrestling, due to nature having endowed men with about twice as much muscle mass in the upper body.

 

None of these facts needs make any difference to your Hero characters, if you don't wish it, of course.

[Balabanto]

Actually, I handn't thought of Shape Shift. That's a lot simpler. (I like simple.) Give the shape shift two forms only: male and female.

 

And yes, put everything in a multi-power and give all the gender-limited powers a -0 limitation only works when male/female.

 

I'm calling it a -0 limitation for the moment because as far as I know, the character can shape shift at will. If the shape shift is difficult to use for some reason, assign an appropriate value to the limitation.

 

Multiform would also work, but it's f*****g complicated. Not worth the trouble if you can avoid it.

 

Shapeshift is the way to go here. The character doesn't intrinsically become another character. The character stays the same, only the powers and gender change. Lockout and other limitations such as side effect and activation rolls (With a possible gender switch to the wrong set of powers for the situation) can be your friends here.

[Altair]

 

It is surprising just how much stronger men are in upper body strength than women. I stress, lest I be lynched, that I refer to upper body strength, not any other physical or moral quality.

 

This post brings the data (pdf link, to paper from European Journal of Applied Physiology)

http://egitim.judo.gov.tr/Dosyalar/makaleler/-ENG-Hand-grip-strength-in-judo.pdf

 

Takeaways:

"the very strongest female athletes are barely above the median of grip strength for men.

The top 75th percentile of female athletes are below the bottom 25th percentile of men.  

Ten percent of women have stronger grips than the bottom five percent of men.

The very weakest male in the data set of nearly 1,700 males looks to be about at the 20th percentile for average women."

 

This from a study of grip strength, n=1654 men, 533 women (including trained athletes and untrained people).

 

There you have it. Frankly, a small guy can almost certainly beat a heftier-looking woman at arm-wrestling, due to nature having endowed men with about twice as much muscle mass in the upper body.

 

None of these facts needs make any difference to your Hero characters, if you don't wish it, of course.

 

 

At what point did this become a discussion of hand-grip strength? You said, and I quote: 

 

While differences in sexual organs are unlikely to affect your campaign much, and I doubt your PC's will be getting pregnant, there are actually physical differences you might want to keep in mind as far as characteristics go. Women are, of course much weaker than men. While this is common knowledge, it might surprise you just how much weaker women are than men. Women would have a slightly higher dexterity, a slightly lower speed, and maybe some other things I haven't even thought of. This all depends on how realistic you want to get, of course.

(Emphasis mine)

 

Look, I don't think anyone is arguing that there are physical differences between biological sexes - Olympic times, and all that. It's more that your comments are coming off as rather arbitrary, and a bit out of touch. On top of this, moving the goalposts in the conversation doesn't strengthen your point, it portrays you as a troll.

 

Maybe that's wrong! Maybe you're just trying to point out that there are some quantifiable differences in the point of central tendency across biological sexes, and modeling that might be worth doing as a multiform. Cool! That's a valid thing to consider. 

 

If that's the case, then some clarifying statements would be appreciated. It's generally a pretty friendly and welcoming community. 

[薔薇語]

At what point did this become a discussion of hand-grip strength? You said, and I quote:

Let me stop you there. Please go back to your post and check the name on those two quoted sections. After doing so, please feel free to revise everything you just said. ^^

 

La Rose.

[WistfulD]

Let me stop you there. Please go back to your post and check the name on those two quoted sections. After doing so, please feel free to revise everything you just said. ^^

 

La Rose.

 

Five Posts, two posts, the nearly identical phrasing ("it might surprise you just how much weaker women are than men," "It is surprising just how much stronger men are in upper body strength than women"). It's possible that it isn't sock puppet trolling, but I don't think anyone would apologize for assuming that it is.

[薔薇語]

Altair is overstepping his case. A case that you, WistfulID, decided to set up by over-reacting to an innocent comment. 

The two accounts do not have the same name and lest there is good reason to assume they are the same person it is generally best to take in good faith that they are two different people. 

Next, the first poster used a broad and general description of strength. That stance was not wrong and is still not wrong. To add to that view, the second poster provided a link discussing "strength" in a more defined manner. Even if the first and second posters were the same (And it is still foolish to assume they are), there has been no contradiction or moving of goal posts. Allow me to be more clear in my stance towards Altair's post - it is needlessly argumentative and void of substance; rather choosing to try and impugn the posters (for whom he thought was the same person) than really address the merits of the case being brought up. 

 

Next up, looking at post counts is not always a good idea. There are countless people here who lurk and have tiny post counts. Automatically assuming two of them must be the same is flawed at best. And might I add, that a mere 100 or 200 posts is tiny. How do I know that you and Altair are not the same? 200 posts is just one good weekend for me. And you both have taken the same stance, too. Makes me wonder...

 

Lastly in regards to the two posters, the length of the two posts in question is not nearly long enough to draw any set conclusions on the nature of the authors, especially in regards to them being the same person. Even if they use the same key phrase that is proof of nothing. You can read any thread in any section of this board or others on the internet and find that trend. People often repeat key or unique words, phrases, and sentences. It is a normal and natural thing to do in both written and spoken language for a variety of reasons. But it is far easier to notice it off hand in written communications. But go back to any significantly long enough discussion anywhere on these boards and you will see one of us initially use an interesting word choice and then see it parroted several times. Not because we are all the same author, but because we are all human and that is what humans do. 

To end this, allow me to reiterate my earlier point: The initial post was not provocative nor offensive. The stance taken in it is not one unsupported by science nor general belief. The accusations to the contrary were, however, out of left field and unsubstantiated. The followup accusations against two board posters as being the same author are equally unsubstantiated and out of left field. 

 

La Rose. 

[massey]

Physical strength differences between men and women may exist in the real world, but the game makes no distinction at all between them.

[薔薇語]

I am going to preface this by saying that the following post, given that it directly follows mine and seems to be taking a rather strong stance in opposition has inspired my more direct and equally strong retort. If I am misreading this in some significant manner, I do apologize.  

 

Physical strength differences between men and women may exist in the real world, but the game makes no distinction at all between them.

 

First, allow me to be a bit nit-picky: "may exist" comes off as a bit condescending. I do not know you personally so I do not know how it is you choose to speak. I, for one, do tend towards saying things like "may" "think" and "probably", etc when speaking to make things seem more polite. But I do so knowing that I need to add in more clear language lest I come off less than clear in my view. In this case, by saying "may" and not adding more to it, it strikes my ears you are, at best, reluctantly agreeing with a fairly basic and non controversial statement. It strikes me as being akin to saying "well, gravity may exist but F* Newton!"

Next up and more to the meat of your post: HERO makes no baseline assumptions in the differences between the sexes. This is probably done for a large variety of reason. But regardless, no one has, to the best of my knowledge, suggested otherwise. Nor has anyone suggested that it need to. The post that started this whole mess was simply pointing out that men and women have differences in the real world. That fact, that being that it is discussing the real world, was rather abundantly clear given the series of follow posts made by others who equally interpreted as a post reflecting the nature of the real world. Next up, while it did make an off hand suggestion for how one could tweak male/female stats, it was making that suggestion as a way of capturing the grittier real world differences. It, in essence, did the same thing happening in the "How tough are tanks" thread wherein people have argued for a great many pages how to best reflect real world physical properties in HERO while also maintaining cinematic flavor. So, to that end, the post was neither controversial nor proposing, in principle, something that we don't discuss in detail on other matters. 

 

La Rose

[Altair]

@La Rose

 

Good catch - I 100% didn't notice that those were different posters. My bad. And apologies to the two posters for conflating you.

 

I will reiterate the core of my argument, in that I don't necessarily think that the poster(s) were intending to come off in the fashion that they did. It's clear that the language isn't contentious to you. It's clear that it is to some others. Hence, my suggestion for some clarity. 

 

I think that holds. I think that it's very difficult to avoid misunderstanding on the internet (it's a poor channel on media richness scales, for those interested in such things), and that word choices can give incorrect impressions. Example: the use of "may" in the post you quote above; it doesn't read as a qualifer to me in the slightest, but rather a way to transition between topics. It clearly reads differently to you, and that's ok, that's how written communication works. And if it seems like I'm harping on this, I promise it's not an indictment of anyone, but rather that this stuff is important to me. It is, in fact, my field of study. Hence, my interest in seeing communication furthered by clarifying statements. If I've come across as condescending or hostile, I do apologize, as that's far from my intent. (Hey look! A clarifying statement!  )

 

It does, however, support the assertion that clarifications can be useful, because misunderstanding is so easy within the medium. 

 

Anyway, I'mma dip out of this conversation, as I think the question's been answered in a couple different ways, and I'm not certain that me further contributing to the discussion is going to be productive.

[rjcurrie]

Shapeshift is the way to go here. The character doesn't intrinsically become another character. The character stays the same, only the powers and gender change. Lockout and other limitations such as side effect and activation rolls (With a possible gender switch to the wrong set of powers for the situation) can be your friends here.

 

I still don't think you need Shapeshift. The change in appearance is simply the special effect  of activating the given set of powers.

 

Note that I am talking about the rules as written and not any house rule interpretations that you may use in your own campaign.

[Mister E]

"One is not born a woman, one becomes one." ~(Simone de Beauvoir,"The Second Sex")

 

 

Sex & gender are two different things.

 

 

~Mister E ("The Epicene")

[Lucius]

Yep, looks to me like one person with three usernames.

 

And as for the thread topic, probably all over but the shouting.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palinromedary reserves a room at a waterfront hotel in Scotland

[Nemblamenchisus]

Yep, looks to me like one person with three usernames.

 

And as for the thread topic, probably all over but the shouting.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palinromedary reserves a room at a waterfront hotel in Scotland

 

Your spidey-sense may not be as remarkable as you think - I can assure you that I have but one user name. In any event, my previous post in this thread expressed what I wanted to say on the topic.