Use of Transform to Change Character's Gender

[Xavier Onassiss]

Another question: is the gender change voluntary? In other words, if the character is in the female form, and uses one of the male powers, will it cause them to change? This could be a side effect limitation. The value would have to be reduced, because if they're already the correct gender, the limitation won't matter.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'm sorry but could someone elaborate on how multiform is complicated?  Especially how its more complicated than a multipower and a modified shapeshift?

[Altair]

I'm sorry but could someone elaborate on how multiform is complicated?  Especially how its more complicated than a multipower and a modified shapeshift?

 

I'll take a shot. 

 

Not complicated as in, "I don't understand how to do this, and am having difficulty grasping the concepts."

 

Rather, complicated as in "Making two character sheets, and switching between them at combat speed, while tracking damage on both, adds additional steps which increase the complexity and bookkeeping of the character in play." 

 

That's what I took Xavier's meaning to be. Not I can't figure this out complicated, but unwanted extra work complicated. 

 

Anyway, that's my 2 CP.

[Steve]

You also have to pick one form as the True Form which will be paying the points for the Multiform power.

 

If both forms have the same END, STUN and BODY, it makes it even easier to swap between sheets. It works like an advanced form of Shape Shift.

 

I would suggest keeping the same SPD score on both forms, but having DEX and STR vary between them would be possible.

 

If you have Accidental Change or a Side Effect on one or more powers that then cause the change, then you don't even have to pay for the Multiform ability. That's cheesy though.

[zslane]

Rather, complicated as in "Making two character sheets, and switching between them at combat speed, while tracking damage on both, adds additional steps which increase the complexity and bookkeeping of the character in play."

Um, yeah, well if that is indeed what the OP meant, then I strongly recommend that the player in question avoid trying to GM this game system...

 

I have always avoided GMing the Hero System precisely because of (what I perceive as) the intrinsic difficulty in effectively running so many separate characters (villains and agents) simultaneously. I suppose if I had a character concept that I absolutely loved which was best represented by Multiform, I'd bite the bullet and deal with the sheet swapping. But I do understand the reluctance to do that if it's not strictly necessary.

[Xavier Onassiss]

I'll take a shot. 

 

Not complicated as in, "I don't understand how to do this, and am having difficulty grasping the concepts."

 

Rather, complicated as in "Making two character sheets, and switching between them at combat speed, while tracking damage on both, adds additional steps which increase the complexity and bookkeeping of the character in play." 

 

That's what I took Xavier's meaning to be. Not I can't figure this out complicated, but unwanted extra work complicated. 

 

Anyway, that's my 2 CP.

 

 

That's all true, and thanks for pointing it out.

 

What I had in mind was all the extra work required during character creation. Totally not worth it when there's a simpler option.

[Christopher]

For the specific situation described: one set of Powers has Only in Alternate ID (Male) and the other has Only in Alternate ID (Female.) No special Power needed unless you want the change to be very quick and hassle-free.

This.

 

I thought it implied that both forms have equal power. As multiform would sap one Gender of points used it would be a abvious no go. For me Multiform makes absolutely 0 sense, unless there is a clear power gap.

Transform is just plain a dead end. Shape Shift? Maybe if you could come up with a "Only in specific shape shift/normal form" limitation. Wich would be just re-inventing the OIAID Limitation.

 

Note that the value of the limitation is directly proportional to how much of an hinderance it will be.

Also keep in mind that Limitations are not a way to squeeze more powers onto a sheet. That is a happy side effect. They are primarily requests to the GM to make it an issue. Or lower the value if he can not think of ways to make it worth the cost reduction.

 

If a character can "Only use in Form X", but can effortless switch between X and Y* forms then it is obviously not limiting at all.

 

*No pun regarding Chromosome structure intended.

[Lucius]

For the specific situation described: one set of Powers has Only in Alternate ID (Male) and the other has Only in Alternate ID (Female.) No special Power needed unless you want the change to be very quick and hassle-free.

More generally, changing one's own physical form calls for Shapeshift; changing someone else's would usually be Transform.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Only in Palindromedary ID

[Greywind]

That's all true, and thanks for pointing it out.

 

What I had in mind was all the extra work required during character creation. Totally not worth it when there's a simpler option.

 

And yet, most of us create characters just for the fun of it

[CptPatriot]

Wow, I hadn't thought there would be so much debate associated with this topic.

 

Anyway, the original idea was just simply have two sets of powers, the type of powers didn't matter save that they were indeed very different in look.

 

I had suggested to the player that he could pull it off just by having each set Only in Alternate ID, with powers A being Male and powers B being female, but clearly there are areas of metaphysics involved here. The idea that the gender also affects ones sense of self didn't dawn on me, neither did the differences in organs.

 

How much of a character's gender is simple semantics and how much does it affects the character's sense of self?

 

If this had been a machine character with two power sets which changed aspects of the machine's appearance, would there be so much debate?

 

As I see it, the gender of a character is just a special effect, defined by the player, but clearly other people feel that a character is not just a simple special effect but something that truly defines the nature of the form and their sense of self.

[Christopher]

Wow, I hadn't thought there would be so much debate associated with this topic.

As a mater of fact we can not even agree on how the build the Hulk/Banner combo.

It usually boils down to wheter "Puny banner" is actually puny or has so many supertech gadgets he is about the same powerlevel as Hulk. In the former case, it is Multiform (banner being true form). In the later OIAID is a better fit.

Some recent adaptations actually put him in permanent, smart and barely ragy Hulk Mode (varius Avengers and Hulk Animated Series).

 

We only about agree that Transform is propably the wrong power to start with.

 

Anyway, the original idea was just simply have two sets of powers, the type of powers didn't matter save that they were indeed very different in look.

 

I had suggested to the player that he could pull it off just by having each set Only in Alternate ID, with powers A being Male and powers B being female, but clearly there are areas of metaphysics involved here. The idea that the gender also affects ones sense of self didn't dawn on me, neither did the differences in organs.

 

How much of a character's gender is simple semantics and how much does it affects the character's sense of self?

 

As I see it, the gender of a character is just a special effect, defined by the player, but clearly other people feel that a character is not just a simple special effect but something that truly defines the nature of the form and their sense of self.

You are asking the right question:

How much of an effect does the palyer want it to have?

 

If the player does not want an effect on self, there is none. Gender bender related drama is not for everyone.

Difference in organs: Can't turn male while pregnant. Needs some room in the chest area. A PC becomming pregnant is a Player decision. And propably long lasting enough that it might warant temporarily rewriting the sheet to a female only form.

 

If the player wanted to it could be done with a variable Complication. A complication that is one while in male form and another while in female form. Of course that also makes those Complications incredibly easy to dodge (just switch gender, no issue), so they are not going to be worth much.

 

Shape Shift only makes sense if it would be difficulty to know that it is still the same character. It is about as apearing as somebody other then yourself. Either somebody specific or "just some other person".

Afaik Ranma being able to switch gender was known to all but the most casual onlookers and densest characters. They might not have know the triggers, but they knew male and female Ranma are the same person.

If it is an open secret there is no need for Shape Shift, as it would not grant it's costs worth.

[zslane]

Yeah, I wouldn't impose Shapeshift on the character just to change genders unless that change was super beneficial in the campaign. As in, beneficial to the point where a superpower is being paid for it.

 

BTW, a similar debate did indeed rage in a past thread over the Transformers and how to design their vehicle forms vs. their robot forms.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Beyond one's sense of self, changing gender will also effect other characters' perceptions and expectations of the PC.

 

But how much or how little depends on what kind of game you want to run.

[Steve]

Here is one possible way to do such an ability. It was one I came up with for a martial artist character who had trouble controlling his Yin/Yang balance due to the lingering effects of a transformation spell he was hit with. I admit it was inspired by Ranma 1/2. 

 

Yin-Imbalanced Form:  Multiform (400 Character Points in the most expensive form) (80 Active Points); Personality Loss First Roll After 20 Minutes (-1 1/4), Time Limit (1 Hour; -3/4), Affects Body Only (-1/2). Real Cost: 23 Points.

 

If the male form is 400+ points, it does not use up a large percentage of the character's points. Switching back and forth is easy, but the danger lies in staying in female form too long and allowing the yin imbalance to last too long. The change can't be held for longer than an hour unless personality loss happens, since the True Form is struggling to re-assert itself.

[rjcurrie]

In general, I agree with the two sets of powers (one in Male ID, one in Female ID) with no power needed for the gender switch. After all, changing genders is just the special effect of activating the appropriate set of powers. However, this assumes that the Complications are the same for both the male and female forms. If the Complications are different for the different forms then that would seem to call for Multiform.

[Altair]

After all, changing genders is just the special effect of activating the appropriate set of powers. 

 

For sure, if that's true in the game said character exists in, then no doubt. 100% agree. It's not my default assumption, but it's not my game either

 

The thing I think we can all agree on is that you're supposed to Get What You Pay For - so if it's just supposed to be SFX, then it shouldn't cost a significant amount of points, if it costs anything at all. If, however, the switching has effects outside of access to the power set, then one can adjudicate accordingly.

[rjcurrie]

Beyond one's sense of self, changing gender will also effect other characters' perceptions and expectations of the PC.

 

But how much or how little depends on what kind of game you want to run.

 

Yes, but isn't that the same thing with any physical change?  If, when you activate your powers, you bring a polka dotted cat man, that's going to also affect other character's perceptions and expectations.

[Lucius]

What do you expect of a polka dotted cat man?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary expects a taco

[CptPatriot]

Here I am thinking this was gonna be just a rule issue and it turned out to be so much more.

[L. Marcus]

Can o' worms, and all that.

[zslane]

This is the Hero System, after all. It is both a boon and a curse...

[Lucius]

Here I am thinking this was gonna be just a rule issue and it turned out to be so much more.

Hey I didn't bring the polka dot cat, man.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I brought the palindromedary

[HighTreason]

While differences in sexual organs are unlikely to affect your campaign much, and I doubt your PC's will be getting pregnant, there are actually physical differences you might want to keep in mind as far as characteristics go. Women are, of course much weaker than men. While this is common knowledge, it might surprise you just how much weaker women are than men. Women would have a slightly higher dexterity, a slightly lower speed, and maybe some other things I haven't even thought of. This all depends on how realistic you want to get, of course.

 

It has already been pointed out that NPC's and perhaps even PC's will often have a different reaction to a male or a female. If your campaign is role play heavy, this could be a very big deal. That is assuming of course that the character actually looks discernibly feminine in female form and discernibly masculine in male form. If they actually look the same but just some sexual organs change, which are presumably covered by clothing anyway, this becomes a non-issue.

 

If it were me, I would feel compelled to go with Multi-form on this in most cases, the exception being a case like the character is not human and members of his/her race do not have any differences in strength and characteristics when they switch genders and do not look any different outside of sexual organs. In that case, I might just go with a Multi-power if the change is instantaneous and can't be stopped somehow. It's just a special effect at that point.

Edited June 15, 2015 by HighTreason

[Jason S.Walters]

 Women are, of course much weaker than men. While this is common knowledge, it might surprise you just how much weaker women are than men. Women would have a slightly higher dexterity, a slightly lower speed, and maybe some other things I haven't even thought of.

 

Have you met my wife? Seriously. She's freaky strong. 

 

While Multi-form strikes me as a perfectly acceptable way to create a character that can change genders, much of your above statement strikes me inaccurate. Yes, on average, women are less physically powerful than men. However, the statistical outliers (very strong women vs. very weak men) seem to average that out a bit. And I live out here in ranching and farming country, where the women are often very physically strong and capable of doing a "man's work" when needed. Which is often.

 

And I question your assertions about dexterity and speed. I'm pretty quick and nimble for an old guy, but somehow I don't see beating Serena Williams at... well, pretty much anything.

 

Jason

[Chris Goodwin]

In the HERO System, there's no inherent mechanical differences between males and females.  

 

What's the game effect of the gender change?  Is the character's personality different from one form to the other?  Does each form have its own legally established identity?  Are there any social issues in the game world that might affect one form or the other?  

 

The specific answers to the questions above might change this, but in general I'd go with the two sets of mutually exclusive powers, one with "Only In Male Form" and the other in "Only In Female Form".  Maybe take a Social Complication: Secret ID; as GM I might make it worth a bit less because it's going to be a bit more difficult, for instance, for villains to locate the male identity by following the female one or vice versa.  

 

As far as Transform is concerned, don't use it for changing yourself.  To change another person, you'd probably use Transform (Physical), and the answers to the questions above would determine whether it's Cosmetic or Minor.  I'm not sure I'd go as far as Major for a gender change, unless the game world calls for some heavy duty differences (social or otherwise) between genders.