PRE v EGO

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

A new group that I am playing with hates the fact that PRE goes against PRE for PRE Attacks. They are reasoning that EGO (described as willpower) would be a much better option for a PRE Attack defense as opposed to PRE (described as spirit). I wanted to get opinions on this. Do you think that EGO is a good "replacement" for PRE Attack defense or should PRE be used?

[Vondy]

I don't know about 6e, but...

 

In 5e there was an optional rule allowing you to choose EGO or PRE to resist presence attacks.

 

Personally, I think both characteristics make sense.

 

A person with a high presence is not, typically a shrinking violet or easily cowed.

 

A person with a high ego is strong-minded or strong-willed, even if they are an introvert.

 

In my games, I allow the player to defend with the better of the two.

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

In 6E, the book quotes this for 6E2 136:

 

"The default HERO System rule is that characters use their PRE to resist the effects of Presence Attacks, since PRE tends to reflect a character’s forcefulness, charisma, bravery, confidence, bearing, self-esteem, and so on."

 

This is why I'm asking.

[L. Marcus]

I'm of a mind to houserule that PRE Attacks go against EGO in 6E.

[Zephrosyne]

The sidebar titled Toolkitting: Defending Against Presence Attacks in 6E2 page 136 does provide optional rules for using other Characteristics (including Ego) to defend against Presence Attacks.

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

But that sidebar refers to EGO as a options for only certain types of PRE attacks. I'm referring it for ALL PRE attacks

[Mister E]

I leave it to PRE to defend against Presence Attacks.

 

Call it morale, spirit, mettle, pluck, moxie...

 

Presence of mind.

 

Cooler heads will prevail.

[Vondy]

But that sidebar refers to EGO as a options for only certain types of PRE attacks. I'm referring it for ALL PRE attacks

 

I don't see why this is an issue. If you want to do that, do that.

 

People get too caught up in rules as opposed to reasonable rulings.

 

It has precedent in 5e, is not a significant departure from the 6e sidebar, and is easy to articulate.

 

Or, do you need to make an Ego Roll first? 

[Mister E]

Make PRE cost END to use then push it w/ EGO.

[Lucius]

In my games, I allow the player to defend with the better of the two.

I actually thought this was the default rule.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary uses PRE at one end and EGO at the other

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

I actually thought this was the default rule.

I wish it was, but that is not the case. 

[L. Marcus]

It was under 5E, I'm reasonably certain.

[Scott Baker]

It was under 5E, I'm reasonably certain.

5ER 428 agrees with you.

[Doc Democracy]

Never understood why it was fine to defend against presence attacks with EGO but no mention of using multiples of PRE rather than EGO or INT. Or have I missed something for years?

[L. Marcus]

Can you elaborate?

[Tasha]

But that sidebar refers to EGO as a options for only certain types of PRE attacks. I'm referring it for ALL PRE attacks

from Champions Complete pg 17

 

ALTERNATE DEFENSES 

For some Presence Attacks, the GM might allow Characteristics other than PRE to serve as the target’s defending trait if desired/logical. For example, EGO might allow a character to resist doing something he’d be opposed to.

[Surrealone]

Never understood why it was fine to defend against presence attacks with EGO but no mention of using multiples of PRE rather than EGO or INT. Or have I missed something for years?

 

No, you haven't missed anything.

 

 

As for the topic, so far we have:

• 5th Edition: RAW allows either PRE or EGO to be used (whichever one likes, which usually translates to whichever is higher) for comparison when determining the effectiveness of a presence attack
• 6th Edition: RAW allows PRE to be used for comparison when determining the effectiveness of a presence attack, but RAW also notes that in some situations alternate defenses (such as EGO) may be appropriate.

 

My opinion:

At 1CP per pt of PRE, PRE is an expensive characteristic for something that would only play into interaction skills (assuming you let EGO or PRE apply).  Even the same-cost INT characteristic sees more use ... for science skills, professional skills, INT-based skills (of which there are a lot more than PRE-based skills), and the big one ... PER Rolls.  Thus, to make PRE worth the 1 CP one pays for it, I'd argue that PRE should be the primary charactertistic used for comparison when determining the effectiveness of a presence attack.  This is congruent with the change from 5er to 6e, and in that same vein EGO should only really play into it if an affected character is forced to do something one wouldn't be disposed to doing due to the PRE roll total (such as 'surrender' or 'flee' due to being cowed at PRE+30 .... when the character has a Complication like 'never runs from a fight').  In such case, I'd think an EGO roll would suffice to continue fighting (i.e. to overcome the effect of the PRE attack).

 

That said, it's your world, and if you're ok with relegating PRE to 1CP per pt of PRE purely to influence interaction skills -- because you allow EGO to substitute for PRE as defense against PRE attacks -- by all means, run it as it pleases you.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'm fine with GMs using willpower to resist things that their personal character and force of personality will not.  Every game I've run, I have always allowed people to use whichever is higher.

[Tasha]

Never understood why it was fine to defend against presence attacks with EGO but no mention of using multiples of PRE rather than EGO or INT. Or have I missed something for years?

 

I always assumed that if you were allowing EGO to defend against Pre attacks then the chart would work off the character's Ego instead of Presence.

 

I have always played that if a character's Ego was larger then their Presence they could use the better stat to defend against Presence Attacks. That rule has been around for quite awhile.

[Surrealone]

from Champions Complete pg 17

 

ALTERNATE DEFENSES 

For some Presence Attacks, the GM might allow Characteristics other than PRE to serve as the target’s defending trait if desired/logical. For example, EGO might allow a character to resist doing something he’d be opposed to.

 

You're my hero!  You know why...

[Vondy]

from Champions Complete pg 17

 

ALTERNATE DEFENSES 

For some Presence Attacks, the GM might allow Characteristics other than PRE to serve as the target’s defending trait if desired/logical. For example, EGO might allow a character to resist doing something he’d be opposed to.

 

I find the 6e sidebar option of the 5e rule introduces the potential for yet more fiddly-think.

 

I find the distinction logical, but otiose.

[Tasha]

No, you haven't missed anything.

 

 

As for the topic, so far we have:

• 5th Edition: RAW allows either PRE or EGO to be used (whichever one likes, which usually translates to whichever is higher) for comparison when determining the effectiveness of a presence attack
• 6th Edition: RAW allows PRE to be used for comparison when determining the effectiveness of a presence attack, but RAW also notes that in some situations alternate defenses (such as EGO) may be appropriate.

 

My opinion:

At 1CP per pt of PRE, PRE is an expensive characteristic for something that would only play into interaction skills (assuming you let EGO or PRE apply).  Even the same-cost INT characteristic sees more use ... for science skills, professional skills, INT-based skills, and the big one ... PER Rolls.  Thus, to make PRE worth the 1 CP one pays for it, I'd argue that PRE should be the primary charactertistic used for comparison when determining the effectiveness of a presence attack.  This is congruent with the change from 5er to 6e, and in that same vein EGO should only really play into it if forced to do something one wouldn't be disposed to doing (such as 'surrender' or 'flee' due to being cowed at PRE+30 .... when the character has a Complication like 'never runs from a fight').  In such case, I'd think an EGO roll would suffice to continue fighting (i.e. to overcome the effect of the PRE attack).

 

That said, it's your world, and if you're ok with relegating PRE to 1CP per pt of PRE purely to influence interaction skills -- because you allow EGO to substitute for PRE as defense against PRE attacks -- by all means, run it as it pleases you.

 

Presence is worth 1pt per pip for one reason. Presence Attacks. A Presence Attack that gives a high number will cause opposition to basically surrender. Also the Character is at DCV 0.  Which IS a very powerful effect. Everything else you get for presence is frosting on that cake.

[Tasha]

You're my hero!  You know why...

 

I try to use Champons Complete when I can because new players won't have 6e1 and 6e2. So I support the edition that is available on the shelves.

[Surrealone]

Presence is worth 1pt per pip for one reason. Presence Attacks. A Presence Attack that gives a high number will cause opposition to basically surrender. Also the Character is at DCV 0.  Which IS a very powerful effect. Everything else you get for presence is frosting on that cake.

 

That was rather my point!

 

 

I try to use Champons Complete when I can because new players won't have 6e1 and 6e2. So I support the edition that is available on the shelves.

 

It was noted AND appreciated!

[Tasha]

Ego doesn't get much use unless there's a mentalist. So IF a PC bought their Ego up I would be very willing to allow them to use the stat to defend against Pre attacks. It doesn't hurt anything and makes it so someone who doesn't want to be super charismatic to be able to resist presence attacks.