Making super sorcery and non-magic super powers feel different

[Ninja-Bear]

Or how about this. Madic is ran off an endurance battery that can only be recovered by ritual or artifact?

[Doc Democracy]

My take on this is that changes, to feel different, force players of magic wielding characters to make different decisions in combat.

 

What you need to do is seriously think how you want that to look in your game. You need to think how the super-mage approaches things differently in narrative terms and then build your campaign settings to enforce that.

 

When you can describe your vision to us, we can help with mechanical suggestions... :-)

[Clonus]

Depends on the setting. As I said Comico all heros have supernatural origin.

 

But In a world that has both I'd like a little fluff and crunch to distinguish the two.

Unique assumptions about a superhero setting add flavor. Such as the Wild Cards setting.

Which up to a point had no gadgeteers or powered armor until someone shoehorned them in.

Sometimes stepping out of generic superhero is interesting.

http://www.wildcardsonline.com/

 

Modular Man was in Wild Cards from the start.  He was part of the original campaign along with the Turtle and his abilities are based on Superworld's gadget pool rules just as the Great and Powerful Turtle's status as the world's most powerful superhero was the product of an rules-crock exploit of the Superworld rules.  

 

But I digress.  High end super-sorcerers are chiefly mechanically different from people who have innate super powers in that their powers are reconfigurable.  They are gadgeteers without the gadgets. 

[steriaca]

Really, what it comes down to is, what do you, the GM, want the magic of the campaign world, to feal like.

 

Which is why I wish for a "Superhero Gimour" book, to be generic enough to be able to fit into any campaign, but crunchy enough to be usable to define magic. Basicly a book of "magic systems" which can be cherrypicked for any new GM and can make magic not exactly feal like other superpowers.

[zslane]

High end super-sorcerers are chiefly mechanically different from people who have innate super powers in that their powers are reconfigurable.  They are gadgeteers without the gadgets.

 

And then there are characters with high-end rubber tech/science that is magic for all intents and purposes. Galactus comes to mind. Anything Dr. Strange can do with "magic", Galactus can do with his tech and/or innate abilities with the "Power Cosmic". They both have VPPs, and their abilities are highly "reconfigurable" (i.e., completely arbitrary and governed by the needs of the plot).

 

I really feel that when it comes to classic Marvel/DC-type universes, there is no definition for "supermage" that definitively distinguishes it from other superhero archetypes with regard to the functionality of their powers.

[zslane]

Really, what it comes down to is, what do you, the GM, want the magic of the campaign world, to feal like.

Which is why I wish for a "Superhero Gimour" book, to be generic enough to be able to fit into any campaign, but crunchy enough to be usable to define magic. Basicly a book of "magic systems" which can be cherrypicked for any new GM and can make magic not exactly feal like other superpowers.

Gimour? I think you mean Grimoire.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Seems to me the first thing to do is to not try to explain or systematize it.  Don't apply science to the magic stuff.  How does it work?  Who gives a damn, its magic.  Focus on the hard science for superpowers, so it has to make sense.  Ignore all that for the magic, its crazy and magic and it doesn't make any sense.

Magic should be able to do things superpowers cannot, like warp time and space, summon things, create stuff out of nothing, etc.  Avoid simple energy constructs and have the magic be stuff.  Instead of an energy force field, its a shield made of shards of mirrors.  Instead of an energy blast, a dragon's head shows up and blasts fire all over the target.  

[steriaca]

Gimour? I think you mean Grimoire.

Yes. There is a reason I call myself the Misspelian Master.

[Ninja-Bear]

Yes. There is a reason I call myself the Misspelian Master.

I blame my cellphone and small buttons.

[Clonus]

And then there are characters with high-end rubber tech/science that is magic for all intents and purposes. Galactus comes to mind. Anything Dr. Strange can do with "magic", Galactus can do with his tech and/or innate abilities with the "Power Cosmic". They both have VPPs, and their abilities are highly "reconfigurable" (i.e., completely arbitrary and governed by the needs of the plot).

 

I really feel that when it comes to classic Marvel/DC-type universes, there is no definition for "supermage" that definitively distinguishes it from other superhero archetypes with regard to the functionality of their powers.

 

Galactus isn't a character one can stat.  He isn't a protagonist, nor is he really an antagonist.  You don't fight Galactus.  You look for the plot device that will convince him to go away again.  

[sinanju]

And then there are characters with high-end rubber tech/science that is magic for all intents and purposes. Galactus comes to mind. Anything Dr. Strange can do with "magic", Galactus can do with his tech and/or innate abilities with the "Power Cosmic". They both have VPPs, and their abilities are highly "reconfigurable" (i.e., completely arbitrary and governed by the needs of the plot).

 

I really feel that when it comes to classic Marvel/DC-type universes, there is no definition for "supermage" that definitively distinguishes it from other superhero archetypes with regard to the functionality of their powers.

 

Which brings us back around to what does the original poster want from his game? I posted how I'd handle magic vs superpowers. I think that would work well, in that it would give me the distinction _I_ want. It may not mirror Marvel or DC, but it doesn't have to.

[steriaca]

Which brings us back around to what does the original poster want from his game? I posted how I'd handle magic vs superpowers. I think that would work well, in that it would give me the distinction _I_ want. It may not mirror Marvel or DC, but it doesn't have to.

Which is why I bumped my Superhero Grimour(mispell) thread. If the op can't find a combination of "magic systems" for his campaign there, then we don't have what he is looking for.

[DShomshak]

Really, what it comes down to is, what do you, the GM, want the magic of the campaign world, to feal like.

 

Which is why I wish for a "Superhero Gimour" book, to be generic enough to be able to fit into any campaign, but crunchy enough to be usable to define magic. Basicly a book of "magic systems" which can be cherrypicked for any new GM and can make magic not exactly feal like other superpowers.

<cough>Ultimate Mystic and Mystic World<cough>

 

At least, one chapter in each of them. Dr. Strange-style superhero lightshow magic in Mystic World; Hermetic (European grimoire) magic, Sadhana, Voodoo, and various others in Ultimate Mystic, with sample spells and notes on representing the most distinctive elements in Hero System terms.

 

I do not, of course, expect everyone to agree with all the details of how I did this. But it's a place to start and, I hope, informative about the look and feel of various RL and fictional magical traditions.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Ninja-Bear]

Dean Shomshak, did anu of your books mention asian, Chinese or Japanese style of magic perchance?

[Wardsman]

Wardsman how about this -o limitation ley lines. Certain area of earth because if ley line can either aid or drain a mages power.

All good ideas ninja bear. Shadow world had rules for ley lines with the essence flows. It was more than +) If I recall correctly.

[Wardsman]

Seems to me the first thing to do is to not try to explain or systematize it.  Don't apply science to the magic stuff.  How does it work?  Who gives a damn, its magic.  Focus on the hard science for superpowers, so it has to make sense.  Ignore all that for the magic, its crazy and magic and it doesn't make any sense.

Magic should be able to do things superpowers cannot, like warp time and space, summon things, create stuff out of nothing, etc.  Avoid simple energy constructs and have the magic be stuff.  Instead of an energy force field, its a shield made of shards of mirrors.  Instead of an energy blast, a dragon's head shows up and blasts fire all over the target.  

Magick should have its own internal logic. Even if it defies real world logic.  When writing or building a setting thinking those things rewards the reader or player.

Super powers are just as fuzzy in some cases. But yes they should have some rubber science behind them.

 

The original question was as much about fluff and setting as rules.

I guess many just don't think the way I do. 

I was trying to see what others may have done.

 

I do think Fate and Strange type mages are just a little tooo powerful. But then again I'm an outlier. I tend to like the lower power levels anyway.

 

Maybe some sort of karmic cost when a supermage uses a power?

You or your subject get the bonus but then must suffer a penalty. Still mulling that over.

Maybe mental effects are the purview of magick.

 

Perhaps it would help to decide what powers normal super powers and what they can and cannot do and work from there.

[steriaca]

Perhaps it would help to decide what powers normal super powers and what they can and cannot do and work from there.

Unforcently, that is up to the GM to define.

 

As for The Ultimate Mystic and The Mystical World, they are both good books. But if they were really great, wouldn't they be reprinted in 6ed/Champions Complete? I'm the guy who believes that everything a game master should need should be updated to the current system.

[Ninja-Bear]

All good ideas ninja bear. Shadow world had rules for ley lines with the essence flows. It was more than +) If I recall correctly.

Thanks. Hopefully they at least get your imagination firing. Btw somethings I can't out of a wet paper bag and sometimes the ideas just hit me.

[zslane]

Seems to me the first thing to do is to not try to explain or systematize it.  Don't apply science to the magic stuff.  How does it work?  Who gives a damn, its magic.  Focus on the hard science for superpowers, so it has to make sense.  Ignore all that for the magic, its crazy and magic and it doesn't make any sense.

The "explanation" for powers in an RPG is usually just campaign window dressing and rarely has any meaningful game effect or impact on play anyway. I sort of agree that nobody really gives a damn, and that's because the explanation rarely ever matters. It is merely raw material for a character's background description, or the justification/explanation behind special effects, modifiers, and disads. But rarely does it lead to making magic feel different from non-magic superpowers in actual use on the battlemat.

 

Magic should be able to do things superpowers cannot, like warp time and space, summon things, create stuff out of nothing, etc.  Avoid simple energy constructs and have the magic be stuff.  Instead of an energy force field, its a shield made of shards of mirrors.  Instead of an energy blast, a dragon's head shows up and blasts fire all over the target.

 

Firstly, I think a GM who makes certain powers or power combinations off limits to non-mages is going to have some frustrated players, especially the more creative ones. I'm not sure that's such a wise way to go. Especially when classic superhero comics are overrun with characters that mix and match power effects irrespective of their conceptual source.

 

And as for the rest of it, well, it seems to me you're just saying that the difference between magic-based powers and non-magic-based powers is their special effects, which I completely agree with. Unless, of course, the GM is willing to build truly concrete differences into the campaign rules and enforce them rigorously. Which is okay as long as the players want to play in that world and limit their character builds accordingly.

 

That can be a bit of a hard sell sometimes though. Given enough time, even the most crisply defined fictional superhero universe will become a melange of character types with all manner of wacky explanations for their origins and powers. It is the nature of any on-going franchise with hundreds of different authors and editors, each with unique and often incompatible visions for the material, allowed to have their creative impact. And when it comes to superhero source material, the anything-goes universe is far more common than the tightly-defined universe (and eventually, entropy always wins and the tightly-defined universes eventually lose cohesion and slowly become anything-goes universes anyway).

 

All of which, I guess, is sort of my way of saying that to my mind, trying to make magic powers different from non-magic superpowers in a concrete way in a supers campaign is ultimately a waste of time. Just encode the differences through "special effect" and be done with it. That's the Champions way, IMO.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Firstly, I think a GM who makes certain powers or power combinations off limits to non-mages is going to have some frustrated players, especially the more creative ones.

 

Well, the premise is "how to make them seem different" and the proposed solution is "make superpowers have to make scientific sense, and magic not" which leads to "some stuff either one can and cannot do."

 

Magic only seems and feels magical when its inexplicable and surprising, when it does things you can't and don't expect.  If a mage pulls a gun out and shoot someone, it doesn't matter if the bullets are made of demon bones and summoned in the chamber rather than using a magazine.  It just doesn't seem magical.

[zslane]

Magic only seems and feels magical when its inexplicable and surprising, when it does things you can't and don't expect.  If a mage pulls a gun out and shoot someone, it doesn't matter if the bullets are made of demon bones and summoned in the chamber rather than using a magazine.  It just doesn't seem magical.

Yeah, well, I didn't expect a zapped-by-science speedster (like Zoom) to be able to just hold out his hand and open a dimensional portal to an alternate Earth. In any other context I would identify that as "magic" by the standards you've described (which I think are perfectly reasonable, btw). Yet this effect, which took me by surprise every bit as much as I'm sure it did the characters in the show, was not magical in any way (that I'm aware of), nor executed by a supermage or sorceror of any kind.

 

In any traditional superhero universe, being inexplicable and surprising is not the sole domain of magic, that's for sure.

 

Which is why I keep pointing out--in apparent agreement with the OP--that his campaign universe is going to have to be decidedly non-traditional, and is going to have to establish special campaign rules to force a distinction that doesn't typically exist in any meaningful way in the most traditional source material (you know, the kind that served as the foundation for the game's design).

[Ninja-Bear]

Zslane if you are upfront with your players that you want magic to be different from super powers then I don't think you have frustrated players. I think many people are just knee jerk reacting to the concept of of having magic be different. Really dors anyone have qualms if we have a super martial artist as special effect? I'll go out on a limb and say that hardly anyonr would blink and say that two characters could be built the same but feel different if one had martial arts as a sfx versus pure strength brick.

[Ninja-Bear]

And when it comes to mechanical limitations enforced, would people really complain if it was a power armored game?

[Wardsman]

Yeah, well, I didn't expect a zapped-by-science speedster (like Zoom) to be able to just hold out his hand and open a dimensional portal to an alternate Earth. In any other context I would identify that as "magic" by the standards you've described (which I think are perfectly reasonable, btw). Yet this effect, which took me by surprise every bit as much as I'm sure it did the characters in the show, was not magical in any way (that I'm aware of), nor executed by a supermage or sorceror of any kind.

 

In any traditional superhero universe, being inexplicable and surprising is not the sole domain of magic, that's for sure.

 

Which is why I keep pointing out--in apparent agreement with the OP--that his campaign universe is going to have to be decidedly non-traditional, and is going to have to establish special campaign rules to force a distinction that doesn't typically exist in any meaningful way in the most traditional source material (you know, the kind that served as the foundation for the game's design).

Source material changes over time.

 

When Champions 1st edition and 2nd came out, it stated certain powers were supposed to be rare. The more it cost the rarer the power. The two on the very costly and rare list were Desolid(40 pts) and FTL(50pts).

Comics changed and that rule was diminished while Desolid is still 4o pts. it is more common across a variety of effects.

FTL actually got cheaper.

 

Also many people prefer the independents to the current hot mess that is both DC and Marvel where plot and story decisions are being made by bean counters. Sometimes bean counters in other divisions like toys or films, Young Justice anyone?

That got canceled not because of poor ratings but because the toyline it was supposed to sell did poorly.

The origins of the Maximoff Twins is being revised again due politics between rival studios. Though I've always been partial to the High Evolutionary version of their origin. 

 

Marvel and DC do not have coherent settings nor are they thinking in such terms.

 

Superman is supposed to vulnerable to Magick. Hell Black Adam mopped the street with him and he had to be saved by the original Capt. Marvel. But some animators forgot that on JLI. 

 

And those two franchises often conflict with themselves as different creative teams handle similar situations or  same characters differently. 

 

Point is the source material you cite is all over the map. And that without factoring in parallel worlds.

[DShomshak]

Dean Shomshak, did anu of your books mention asian, Chinese or Japanese style of magic perchance?

Taoist Theurgy in Ultimate Mystic, with a brief note on its Japanese analogue, Onmyodo.

 

Much more could be said about both, of course.

 

I'm not surprised that neither Ultimate Mystic nor Mystic World were updated for 6e. The subject is a little specialized for many games. If you just want to treat magic with a handwave as nuthin' special in your superworld, powers is powers, these books probably have little you could use. There are sample spells and characters, but a lot more attention is paid to translating magic styles into game mechanics, the sort of stories that are told about mystics, types of mystical characters, and the sort of worlds in which they operate. There's a chapter in UMy just about designing other dimensions, while MyW offers a mystical cosmology with descriptions of several dimensions.

 

I think this is really the answer to Wardsman's original question: In Hero, the difference between magical characters and other sorts of super-types is less a matter of game mechanics, or even of special effects, as of the milieu in which they operate.

 

("Magical characters" is so broad a class that it's hard to find many commonalities of powers or other crunchy stuff. I mean, even limited to DC, Dr. Fate, Zatanna and John Constantine are all "magical characters" but their powers, the reasons why they can perform magic, and modes of operation are quite different.)

 

As an experiment, try coming up with magical versions of well-known characters. Frex, imagine a version of Iron Man where the armor is enchanted rather than high-tech, the wearer alters its powers by switching out talismans, stuff like that. In Hero terms, the write ups of the character would be very similar (apart from character skills). But Tony Stark the magus likely operates in a very different setting than Tony Stark the brilliant industrialist, and he'll fight very different foes.

 

Dean Shomshak