Making super sorcery and non-magic super powers feel different

[Christopher R Taylor]

In any traditional superhero universe, being inexplicable and surprising is not the sole domain of magic, that's for sure.

 

I agree, but I don't think that's a bad thing, so much.  I think writers got a bit carried away with "its a comic!" and "superpowers, whee!" because they often weren't taking the work very seriously.  The first guy that said "Superman flies so fast he goes back in time" wasn't thinking about a long-term permanent thing for the character or some established universe.  He just had a story to tell and went "what if??"

[assault]

As an experiment, try coming up with magical versions of well-known characters. Frex, imagine a version of Iron Man where the armor is enchanted rather than high-tech, the wearer alters its powers by switching out talismans, stuff like that. In Hero terms, the write ups of the character would be very similar (apart from character skills). But Tony Stark the magus likely operates in a very different setting than Tony Stark the brilliant industrialist, and he'll fight very different foes.

 

This has already been done for a whole bunch of characters. They often end up fighting versions of their traditional opponents who have gone through the same process.

 

Coincidentally, I was thinking this morning about a cyborg character who spends her time in between cases/missions in a virtual reality where she isn't a brain in a robot. She ends up as part Sleeping Beauty, part Once and Future King. It's the only way her team witch could stop her from going mad.

 

However, I'm also working on a list of characters that would fit into a weirder, less mainstream setting.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Tony Stark the magus likely operates in a very different setting than Tony Stark the brilliant industrialist, and he'll fight very different foes.

 

The interesting part is that The Mandarin was chosen as Tony's arch enemy specifically because he uses magical rings as his power source: magic vs technology. So in this world, Tony the magus would go up against some techno guy!

[steriaca]

The interesting part is that The Mandarin was chosen as Tony's arch enemy specifically because he uses magical rings as his power source: magic vs technology. So in this world, Tony the magus would go up against some techno guy!

The Mandarin is not a supermage. Instead, the rings he posses operate on science. Allen Science!

[massey]

Source material changes over time.

 

When Champions 1st edition and 2nd came out, it stated certain powers were supposed to be rare. The more it cost the rarer the power. The two on the very costly and rare list were Desolid(40 pts) and FTL(50pts).

Comics changed and that rule was diminished while Desolid is still 4o pts. it is more common across a variety of effects.

FTL actually got cheaper.

 

Also many people prefer the independents to the current hot mess that is both DC and Marvel where plot and story decisions are being made by bean counters. Sometimes bean counters in other divisions like toys or films, Young Justice anyone?

That got canceled not because of poor ratings but because the toyline it was supposed to sell did poorly.

The origins of the Maximoff Twins is being revised again due politics between rival studios. Though I've always been partial to the High Evolutionary version of their origin. 

 

Marvel and DC do not have coherent settings nor are they thinking in such terms.

 

Superman is supposed to vulnerable to Magick. Hell Black Adam mopped the street with him and he had to be saved by the original Capt. Marvel. But some animators forgot that on JLI. 

 

And those two franchises often conflict with themselves as different creative teams handle similar situations or  same characters differently. 

 

Point is the source material you cite is all over the map. And that without factoring in parallel worlds.

 

You've been making a lot of really harsh judgments in a thread where you came in asking for help.

 

None of us can read your mind, none of us know what kind of game world you want to have.  A lot of people have given you pretty helpful responses to your questions, provided you're looking for a normal superhero campaign world.  And sorry, but I think you've been kind of rude in your responses to people who are trying to help you.  You said earlier "some of us call it worldbuilding".  Well build your world then, but please don't ask anonymous people on a message board to create an entire campaign world for you with zero help.  Because right now you've told us nothing about what you want in your game, or what the background for the world is.  You've just said "I want magic to be special and I don't like normal superhero comics".  You've hinted that maybe you want a unified power structure for regular powers, but you haven't outright said it.  You have told us nothing about what your world is like at all.  And yet you expect us to tell you how magic is different in your undefined world?

[Ninja-Bear]

You've been making a lot of really harsh judgments in a thread where you came in asking for help.

 

None of us can read your mind, none of us know what kind of game world you want to have. A lot of people have given you pretty helpful responses to your questions, provided you're looking for a normal superhero campaign world. And sorry, but I think you've been kind of rude in your responses to people who are trying to help you. You said earlier "some of us call it worldbuilding". Well build your world then, but please don't ask anonymous people on a message board to create an entire campaign world for you with zero help. Because right now you've told us nothing about what you want in your game, or what the background for the world is. You've just said "I want magic to be special and I don't like normal superhero comics". You've hinted that maybe you want a unified power structure for regular powers, but you haven't outright said it. You have told us nothing about what your world is like at all. And yet you expect us to tell you how magic is different in your undefined world?

Massey talk about reading the same thing and getting a different impression. I think a bunch of people did not give anything helpful just the same rhetotic if you ask a question that takes people out of their predefined concepts. Its funny how people are deriding Wardsman for how he envison his world when he states on how he would like a super hero magic but still have it be flavored different from innate powers. He even said that some of ut would be fluff but also considered perhaps some mandatory limitations.

 

Sometimes we ask questions on how stuff works first to shape on our worldbuilding.

[steriaca]

Massey talk about reading the same thing and getting a different impression. I think a bunch of people did not give anything helpful just the same rhetotic if you ask a question that takes people out of their predefined concepts. Its funny how people are deriding Wardsman for how he envison his world when he states on how he would like a super hero magic but still have it be flavored different from innate powers. He even said that some of ut would be fluff but also considered perhaps some mandatory limitations.

 

Sometimes we ask questions on how stuff works first to shape on our worldbuilding.

We understand that, but without any information about what he invisions his gaming world, how can we answer in any helpful way without being shot down.

 

I understand that sometimes you can't put into words what you want. But to everyone else, it appears that the op doesn't exactly know what he wants beyond "magic=diffrent, magic=/superpower". (equal =, not equal =/)

[steriaca]

I apologize if it seems that I am picking on the op. I try to be helpful to the op, but it is hard to answer such an open ended question.

 

Magic can not truly 'feal' different than 'mental powers', 'martial arts powers' or anything else because all powers use the same build system. All superhero worlds have to support many possible orgins and powers as possible, and roleplaying games based on such superhero worlds also must do so.

 

The only superhero world which don't seems to operate like that are manga, but that is mostly because most manga are closed worlds (for example, the Sailor Senshi do not normally run into any other superheros in there world, with the exception of the Sailor Starlights, and they run on the same orgin as they are).

[Tholomyes]

I apologize if it seems that I am picking on the op. I try to be helpful to the op, but it is hard to answer such an open ended question.

 

Magic can not truly 'feal' different than 'mental powers', 'martial arts powers' or anything else because all powers use the same build system. All superhero worlds have to support many possible orgins and powers as possible, and roleplaying games based on such superhero worlds also must do so.

 

The only superhero world which don't seems to operate like that are manga, but that is mostly because most manga are closed worlds (for example, the Sailor Senshi do not normally run into any other superheros in there world, with the exception of the Sailor Starlights, and they run on the same orgin as they are).

 

While I agree in general, there are some "single-origin" universes (the Wild Cards example springs to mind, and also, I believe Gestalt, but I'm not too familiar with that), but even then you can have gadgeteers or magic users who, on the surface appear to be gadgeteers or magic users (albeit with certain aesthetic shifts to match the universe), but whose true power source is based in the setting's single-origin.

 

Though I do agree in general: The problem that I have with a question such as the OP's is that it's not really a mechanical choice, so much as an aesthetic or flavor one. True, there might be some concepts that the OP might think should be "Magic only" or "gadget only" or whatever, that doesn't mean much mechanically, in an effects based system like HERO (E.g. perhaps "phasing" is only the domain of magic, but Desolidification is so versatile it can be used for phasing, damage avoidance, squeezing through small spaces, ect, and many characters could use the Desolidification power without describing it as "phasing"). Perhaps if the OP described it as a worldbuilding brainstorming post, some of the initial confusion over the purpose of the post would have been resolved, but even so, when dealing with the aesthetic or flavor of the world, there really isn't much of a direction to go without knowing what the OP wants out of it.

[steriaca]

That is why I bumped my Grimour thread, to give the OP some ideals.

[Doc Democracy]

I do think that the way to make magic special is for it not to be affected by the things that should affect it.  So magical fire is not extinguished by the traditional methods of cooling and smothering.  Magical water does not disperse or necessarily flow downhill.  

 

These things might require specific issues at the time of build but they may simply be matters of in game description and special effects.

 

I think it would be easy to come up with a set of stuff where we expect things to happen if you do a specific thing.  With magic, that cannot be expected. Paper does not necessarily burn in a fire.

A ball thrown in the air does not necessarily fall to the ground.

Milk in the fridge does not necessarily stay fresh.

 

As I talk I begin to think that there is a campaign rule whereby the casting of magic brings into being a magic field and in this field lots of these kids of things happen.  it is a change environment area effect that probably fades over time but may cause havoc for a while on anything that relies on the exploitation of physics to function...

 

The generation of these fields is a free by-blow of casting magic and the precise effects may be connected to the type of magic cast or may simply be a chaotic remnant that the GM rolls on a table for effects.  They could be good or bad for the caster, though you would imagine that the caster should be able to clean this up (at the cost of some time and energy) if they are properly trained.

 

Doc

 

 

PS: it would also mean that the normal impacts of gaming the special effects of a power would not work unless they were known to be magic.  So no getting a bonus on a sonic attack on underwater opponents etc.  :-)

[freakboy6117]

I think the fundamental difference between magic and other super powers is that magic always has a cost it needs fuel or knowledge or sacrifice or slowly kills or corrupts you.

 

You might need to make a deal with a being from another plane or give up some of your life force . you might need a focus or some sort of ingredient.

[massey]

I think the fundamental difference between magic and other super powers is that magic always has a cost it needs fuel or knowledge or sacrifice or slowly kills or corrupts you.

 

You might need to make a deal with a being from another plane or give up some of your life force . you might need a focus or some sort of ingredient.

 

Magic doesn't have to always have a cost.  I don't remember Mary Poppins stealing the kids' souls or anything.

[Ninja-Bear]

Other thoughts, characteristic are usually ( I assume) closer to "normal human" then a pure super hero. Of course EGO and INT should be high. I would think distingush features: aura would be appropriate. Also I think power wise magicians can aid/ grant powers to others easier than say a gadgeteer.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Magic doesn't have to always have a cost.  I don't remember Mary Poppins stealing the kids' souls or anything.

 

I would watch that movie.

[Hermit]

I would watch that movie.

[Hermit]

One thing I've done in some campaigns is have magic make an impression... a spiritual impression that is. After all, HERO Rules require attacks that can be senses by more than one sense . Usually this is visual, sound, etc.

But for a good third... if the GM is cool with it, a nice effect is to have emotion carried through the working.  The target isn't necessarily infected or anything (That would be a linked power) but it is a really nice special effect. When a Viper agent endangers the son of Mister Mystic, Mr. Mystic doesn't just hit him with an 8d6 Blast that hurts, that VIPER agent isn't just seeing a spiraling stream of light... he feels a father's rage in every stun point taken. He can almost taste the ferocity woven in the fabric of the spell itself

 

But if the magic doesn't come from within (as if often the case) and an outside power is linked to the spell? It still works. Frex: Mr. Mystic has an entangle, but in his case the effect is he evokes the power of an other dimensional entity casting "The Tranquil Embrace of Tothial the Still" ... a VIPER  agent hit by this may have visions of a great serene field of cloudy white holding him and whispering in his ear to be calm. He may sense impressions of stillness, of inaction. Now, that's a sensory FX, not a power, so it's still up to our target if he wants to panic, struggle etc.... but it doesn't stop the slightly creepy/calming magic from shush shush shushing in his ear as if he were an unruly child not wanting to go to bed.

 

 

Not sure if that helps the OP or not, and it's hardly original but it isn't always an option folks use, and it can be a lot of fun if the GM allows

[freakboy6117]

Mary Poppins is an entity with God like powers much like a djinn.

 

How she was summoned is not explained but my view is she was given form by the incantation of the banks children listing their nannies essential character.

 

In my UK heroes magic system there is an entire class of entities that either visit Britain to grant wishes or give one off magical devices to children.

 

Something to do with weak dimensional barriers and the strength of children's imagination.

 

It's a popular trope in English children's books Other examples include Five children and it, alphonso bonzo and Mr Majeika. What higher dimensional creatures get out of it is the question probably it's partly the unique experiences and entertainment value just ask Mr Myxlplyx batmite or the great gazoo .

[Kesedrith]

Mary Poppins is an entity with God like powers much like a djinn.

 

How she was summoned is not explained but my view is she was given form by the incantation of the banks children listing their nannies essential character.

 

In my UK heroes magic system there is an entire class of entities that either visit Britain to grant wishes or give one off magical devices to children.

 

Something to do with weak dimensional barriers and the strength of children's imagination.

 

It's a popular trope in English children's books Other examples include Five children and it, alphonso bonzo and Mr Majeika. What higher dimensional creatures get out of it is the question probably it's partly the unique experiences and entertainment value just ask Mr Myxlplyx batmite or the great gazoo .

Nanny McPhee is another story/movie along this line.  The movie has one of my favorite quotes, and to me is indicative of the "cost" of magic - there are rules.

 

There is something you should understand about the way I work. When you need me but do not want me, then I must stay. When you want me but no longer need me, then I have to go. It's rather sad, really, but there it is.

[DShomshak]

As far as "Magic Is Mysterious/Not Rationally Comprehensible" goes, that depends on the styles of the magic and the type of world you want to build. For instance, Hermetic magic (the half of European grimoire magic that isn't demon-summoning) has a strong internal logic, once you accept its initial premises. It's truly an "occult science."

 

Patrick Rothfuss' Kingkiller series has an interesting take on this question by including two distinct forms of magic. Arcanism is a precise science based on sympathy, contagion and a few other principles its practitioners regard as known. The results can be impressive to the ignorant but a practitioner can explain in detail how they performed each feat and why it works. But there's also Naming, which produces storybook effects such as destroying a wall by speaking the true name of stone and commanding the wall to collapse. But there's nothing to memorize; you perform Naming through a direct, intuitive perception of the hidden reality of things. When you speak the name of the wind, you say something different every time. It's utterly mystical. There are rules, but apparently they cannot be expressed in words.

 

Dean Shomshak

[zslane]

I'm not sure this is really a matter of trying different magic "systems", or making them detailed in the way you would for, say, a Fantasy HERO campaign. I rather think that for the OP, it is a matter of constraining non-magic superpowers so their effects don't overlap magic.

 

Otherwise, you can have Naming magic that destroys a wall by speaking its true name, but then Daisy Johnson can walk up, hold her hand out, concentrate, and get the same result. Will Naming Magick really feel like magic in that scenario? Where a non-mage can do the same exact thing with nothing more than a slight difference in Special Effects?

 

I feel the answer is yes, but the standard Champions notion of Special Effects appears to be insufficient for the OP.

[Old Man]

In my opinion*, the main thing that distinguishes magic from other superpowers is certain limitations, with some optional advantages.  Compared to web-shooters or boot jets or optic blasts, magic nearly always takes longer, is more difficult, and often has costs or risks associated with it.  Doctor Strange is always doing weird things with his fingers while he calls on strangely named entities from other dimensions.  Zatanna talks backwards.  At minimum I'd put Incantations and/or Gestures on magic powers, and I'd give Extra Time and Requires Skill Roll a long look.

 

On the advantages side, magic often looks and acts differently from other powers.  Advantages like Invisible Power Effects, Indirect, and Trigger are especially fitting. 

 

Even the powers themselves matter.  Straight up EBs almost never feel like magic unless there's something very distinctive about them.  Sorcerers should be looking at Transforms, Summons, Telekinesis, and other powers to distinguish themselves from run-of-the mill energy projectors.

 

This would probably not be enough detail for a Fantasy Hero campaign, especially one with multiple 'types' of magic.  But for a Champions campaign it's plenty.

[zslane]

Sure, magic powers built along those lines feel distinctly like magic until someone makes a character whose concept is inherently non-magical but whose powers just happen to be best built with the same combinations of advantages and limitations as the "magic powers". Unless the GM is prepared to tell the player they can't play that character concept, these artificial distinctions are going to erode and become meaningless over time (just as they have in the larger comic book universes that have been around a long time).

[freakboy6117]

Zlane you've just hit clarkes 3rd law and it's corollary's

 

Clarke's third law

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

 

Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (Gehm's corollary

 

Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!

 

Any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic to those who don't understand it.

 

"Any sufficiently ancient recovered wisdom or artifact is also indistinguishable from magic."

[freakboy6117]

Actually one of the best examples of the difference is the venture brothers episode "powerless in the face of death " Dr venture an immoral super scientist and Dr orpheus a powerful necromancer discuss their differing approaches as they both try to resurrect the titular venture brothers.

 

Dr. Venture: C'mon, you do this stuff every day!

Dr. Byron Orpheus: But that's different!

Dr. Venture: Why? Because you call it by a different name? Church, lab. Soul, synapses. Purgatory, computer. Get over yourself!

 

 

I wish I could find the clip but here's a great example of Dr orpheus showing how magic feels diffrent.

 

https://youtu.be/CE-iPkGF3pA