Ninja-Bear Posted May 26, 2016 Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 Sure, magic powers built along those lines feel distinctly like magic until someone makes a character whose concept is inherently non-magical but whose powers just happen to be best built with the same combinations of advantages and limitations as the "magic powers". Unless the GM is prepared to tell the player they can't play that character concept, these artificial distinctions are going to erode and become meaningless over time (just as they have in the larger comic book universes that have been around a long time). No not really. You can have mechanical simularities and still have distinct characters. Its no different than running a martial arts themed game and everyone being distinct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardsman Posted May 26, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 Zlane you've just hit clarkes 3rd law and it's corollary's Clarke's third law Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (Gehm's corollary Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science! Any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic to those who don't understand it. "Any sufficiently ancient recovered wisdom or artifact is also indistinguishable from magic." Yes and no. Clarke's law talks about extraordinary actions would seem like magic to a pre technological level. We are talking about about fuzzy super science (itself iffy) and fictional magic that fits a certain theme from a story point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted May 26, 2016 Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 Well to be a smart donkey, according to Clarkes Law wouldn't super science set off any magical special effect if they are indistigushable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted May 26, 2016 Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 At the heart of it, I think that with science and knowledge, Man is in control and is the master of natural forces. With magic however even with knowledge, it is an outside force which isn't natural. And Man only deludes himself when he thinks he is its master. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted May 26, 2016 Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 Charles Law #1 - (Original) Clarke is full of it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted May 26, 2016 Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 Well to be a smart donkey, according to Clarkes Law wouldn't super science set off any magical special effect if they are indistigushable? His law wasn't that they're identical, just that to outside perception they seem the same. For the medieval peasant, a flashlight is witchcraft, but that doesn't actually make it magical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted May 26, 2016 Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 Normally in Champions, a character with "Magic Bolt" as a power is firing an Energy Blast with the Special Effect "magical energy", which makes it different from a character with "Plasma Bolt" defined as Energy Blast with the Special Effect "superheated matter". Characters with a x2 STUN Vulnerability to "magic" will take extra damage from Magic Bolt but not Plasma Bolt, purely on the basis of Special Effect. Just because a character has powers with certain limitations (Gestures, Incantations, Extra Time), or has them arranged in certain frameworks, doesn't mean those powers are "magical" in nature, regardless of whether or not the campaign world description says, "All spells require one or more of these limitations". The Special Effect has to be "magic", otherwise canonical Vulnerabilities and Susceptibilities won't trigger. And, in fact, all it takes to trigger those Disadvantages is to define a power as having the Special Effect "magic"; the existance of various flavor-inducing limitations is largely irrelevent. It takes a lot of extra, unnecessary effort to construct a superhero world in which "magic" is no longer just a Special Effect tag-word, but a series of characteristics that, if conformed to, confer "magic" status upon the conformant powers. Yet for a GM or group for which the Special Effect concept is insufficient to convey the "feel" of magic in their game, that extra effort becomes necessary. I'm just glad I'm not the one trying to run that campaign world... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister E Posted May 26, 2016 Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 Equating magic w/ nothing: Magic is indistinguishable from anything else because magic has no elements with which to make a distinction. Magic exists at the end of eternity. Magic contains everything. Magic ever changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steriaca Posted May 26, 2016 Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 Magic is a meta-special effect. It can contain all other special effects, and is a special effect in itself. A fireball spell is both the fire special effect (effect) and the magic special effect (source). A mutants fireball is only the fire special effect (othoe it can also be broken down to the mutant power special effect, and could also be the mental power special effect if it is defined as an effect of pryokinises). So, basically Magic is one of the many meta-special effects of a superheri world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 Normally in Champions, a character with "Magic Bolt" as a power is firing an Energy Blast with the Special Effect "magical energy", which makes it different from a character with "Plasma Bolt" defined as Energy Blast with the Special Effect "superheated matter". Characters with a x2 STUN Vulnerability to "magic" will take extra damage from Magic Bolt but not Plasma Bolt, purely on the basis of Special Effect. Just because a character has powers with certain limitations (Gestures, Incantations, Extra Time), or has them arranged in certain frameworks, doesn't mean those powers are "magical" in nature, regardless of whether or not the campaign world description says, "All spells require one or more of these limitations". The Special Effect has to be "magic", otherwise canonical Vulnerabilities and Susceptibilities won't trigger. And, in fact, all it takes to trigger those Disadvantages is to define a power as having the Special Effect "magic"; the existance of various flavor-inducing limitations is largely irrelevent. It takes a lot of extra, unnecessary effort to construct a superhero world in which "magic" is no longer just a Special Effect tag-word, but a series of characteristics that, if conformed to, confer "magic" status upon the conformant powers. Yet for a GM or group for which the Special Effect concept is insufficient to convey the "feel" of magic in their game, that extra effort becomes necessary. I'm just glad I'm not the one trying to run that campaign world... Ok you don't think its feasible to change magic. Thats fine. What confounds me is the amount of time you spent on this thread saying how the OP shouldn't change how magic works in a Supers game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcibiades Posted May 29, 2016 Report Share Posted May 29, 2016 I'm going to make a side note that Clarke's Law is actually meaningless, since for people who have historically believed in magic (which is most people throughout human history), it is a means of manipulating the world according to rational laws (you say the right things, for instance) in order to achieve desired results, which is to say that it is a kind of technology, Anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShomshak Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 Sorry this is so late; I haven't had time untilo now to dig it out of my archives and post it. It's for a different game, White Wolf's Mage: the Ascension, but it deals with magic and superheroes so it might be relevant. Waaaay back in my alt.games.white-wolf days, I was inspired to see how much of the superhero genre I could represent using the rules of Mage: the Ascension -- powers, character types, and story tropes. I could do quite a lot, as it turned out. It's sort of the reverse of the Op's question: How to start with magic and make it *not* distinct from super-powers. I thought it was amusing, and so did a number of other people. I hope it amuses people here, too. I'm not sure *how* it contributes to the discussion, except to look at the question from a different angle. So here it is. Dean Shomshak Cabal-of-Flamboyant-Justice.pdf Cabal-of-Flamboyant-Justice.pdf Chris Goodwin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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