Old Player with Old Issue - Str plus HtH attacks plus Martial Arts

[Beast]

As the GM you just say no and set a max amount of damage

[NuSoardGraphite]

1: follow the equipment guidelines in Fantasy Hero. Those weapons are really well balanced. They are also balanced against the armor in the books. Stick to those values. They work.

 

2: stop letting players in heroic level games design their own attacks. STOP THAT! Unless they are a mage type character, in which case exert strict controls over how magic functions. Treat Fantasy Hero like D&D. Normal weapons and equipment for free. Use the stats out of the book. Observe the rules for Strength minimum. Observe the rules for maximum damage (no more than double base DC) that way your 1d6+1 long sword will not do more than 2 1/2d6k.

 

3: be careful which Talents/powers you introduce into the game and more importantly, how much of the ones you do allow. Deadly Blow and Combat Luck are big offenders in this arena. They can easily throw your damage and defense numbers into chaos. Allow only limited amounts of these into your game. (Especially combat luck)

 

4: make non combat skills important. Then the players cant spend all their points on combat optimization or else they will be inadequate in other important areas of the game.

 

These are my personal guidelines for observing some modicum of game balance learned over many years of playing Heroic level games trying to get the feel right.

[Richgee]

I could not agree more with the above. Balance is key.

[Pattern Ghost]

I only have 4th Edition Fantasy Hero handy, but I don't think the weapon and armor tables have actually changed, or at least haven't changed much. As a source of pre-written PCs, we have the Flashing Blades in that book. I know damage stacking rules have changed a bit, but let's see how they stack up against the 10DC quarterstaff martial artist in the OP:

 

Dannor. Dwarf Fighter. He's swinging a battle axe for 2d6, with +10 STR Min, and +4 Levels. I think by 4th Edition rules he can't use the 2 pt levels for boosting damage, so that's +2 levels. Max DC: 6 (base) + 2 (STR add) + 1 (2 levels) = 9.

 

Kandlin: Human Ranger. His best attack is his Falchion, max DC: 5 (base) + 1 (STR add) + 2 DC (MA: Offensive Strike) = 8. Note here that Kandlin has Martial Arts but no Skill Levels with the Falchion, and the reverse is true for Dannor. (He does have skill levels with the bow, which has higher base DC, but he can't add anything to it from levels or STR over the minima.)

 

Thelona: Elf Swashbuckler. Uses a broadsword (odd choice for buckling swashes, but w/e), max DC: 4 (base) + 2 DC (MA: Offensive Strike) = 6 DC. But she's not really a front line combatant, and has a lot of points sunk into being an Elf. Again, she has MA but no Skill levels.

 

Mikkal: Human  Bard. Mace, max DC: 4 (Base) +1 (STR over Min) + 2 (Offensive Strike) = 7. Again, MA but no Skill Levels.

 

Esterkan: Human Cutpurse: Short Sword, max DC: 3 (Base) + 1 (STR) + 1 (levels) = 5. Skill monkey. Skill Levels here, but no MA.

 

Zorra: Human Priestess: Halberd! Finally, a bigger weapon. (She's a priestess of a war god.) Max DC: 7 (base) + 1 (levels) = 8. Higher STR min for the Halberd kept her in check, along with a lack of skill levels.

 

Jalak: Half-Orc Ex-Witch Doctor: Long Spear, Max DC: 6 (base) + 2 (STR) + 1 (Skill Levels) = 9 DCs

 

It's late, so I'm going to skip the Mage and the Halfling Ex-Apprentice. They're at similarly low damage levels for melee to the Cutpurse.

 

The Sample Characters seem to fit in with the Western Shores sample campaign, but the book omits the Campaign Ground Rules Sheet for the Western Shores, but it does list some suggested Power Levels (p 121): Beginning Range: 2-6 DC, Max 9. 

 

Well, there you have it. Max 9. The three highest damage melee combatants are all DC 9 Max, if you don't count the possibility of Haymakers. (So, not sure if the intent is to ignore Standard Maneuvers with the limit or if Haymakers just aren't considered b/c of genre reasons or because of their slow speed.) None of them have martial arts and skill levels that can add to damage (3pt level and above). None of those with Martial Arts have added DCs.

 

I think that 10DCs probably isn't out of line considering it's only one DC higher, but it looks like the old sample characters were simply built as "Don't exceed X DCs." So. Tell your players the Max DC for the campaign, and tell them if they build something that can do over Max DC whether by design or by accident, you'll let them move some character points elsewhere, should it come up in play at a later date. It's perfectly fine, IMO to adjust characters a bit after the first few sessions to give people (GM included) a chance to get used to the system, and to iron out any differences in baseline assumptions (between players, GM, the rulebooks, the adventure) amicably.

[Outsider]

If your characters are generating "too many" DCs, partly by using skill levels to add damage, just up the DCV of their opponents.  Give the players a decision to make... Hit for 7 DC on a 12-, or hit for 9 DC on an 8-...

[Wardsman]

Reading this over, my first thought is "He forgot Deadly Blow."

5th edition. I assume it is a feat like power or maneuver?

Is it a haymaker with a sword?

[phydaux]

5th edition. I assume it is a feat like power or maneuver?

Is it a haymaker with a sword?

 

It's a Talent - 15 points, +3 DC with X.  Swords, Bows, Daggers, whatever you pick.  

 

IMO all this just exposes an inherent flaw in Hero System Martial Arts and their RIDICULOUS points efficiency.  For someone with low STR and no weapons, they're a great equalizer.  For a character with a high STR plus a weapon plus MA on top of that, it's Boxing Lessons for Superman - 100% rules exploitation, cheap DCs & CVs for a character that thematically doesn't need to have Martial Arts.  

 

That's explicitly why I built my Combat Monster the way I did - High STR, high DEX, Deadly Blow with Swords, and a stack of melee CVs.  In melee with a sword he's, well, a monster.  Take away his sword and he's still tough in melee, but not a monster anymore.  Shoot at him with arrows and, well, thank the gods for chainmail 'cause he's getting feathered.  But that's why there's another player whose stichk is The Archer.  He's there for counter battery fire while the combat monster hacks his way through the meatshield.  Just like the mage is there to shut down the OTHER team's mage while our team's Rogue sneaks around the flank to backstab her.  

 

But none of this is a problem so long as the players understand that what's good for the goose is good for the gander.  Yeah, no city watchman or mook goblin will have Combat Luck or Deadly Blow or know Sylvan War Lore (the much whispered about and possibly only mythical elven martial art).  But eventually the party will come across people who DO.  

[NuSoardGraphite]

In my opinion, Deadly Blow is more egregious than Martial Arts. Adding only +1 or +2 DC of additive damage classes isnt that bad in the scheme of things. Deadly Blow adding +3 Damage Classes of base damage is far more powerful. This is why I support 3 levels of Deadly Blow starting at +1 DC, with +3 DC being the max I allow and exceedingly rare.

[Wardsman]

It's a Talent - 15 points, +3 DC with X.  Swords, Bows, Daggers, whatever you pick.  

 

IMO all this just exposes an inherent flaw in Hero System Martial Arts and their RIDICULOUS points efficiency.  For someone with low STR and no weapons, they're a great equalizer.  For a character with a high STR plus a weapon plus MA on top of that, it's Boxing Lessons for Superman - 100% rules exploitation, cheap DCs & CVs for a character that thematically doesn't need to have Martial Arts.  

 

That's explicitly why I built my Combat Monster the way I did - High STR, high DEX, Deadly Blow with Swords, and a stack of melee CVs.  In melee with a sword he's, well, a monster.  Take away his sword and he's still tough in melee, but not a monster anymore.  Shoot at him with arrows and, well, thank the gods for chainmail 'cause he's getting feathered.  But that's why there's another player whose stichk is The Archer.  He's there for counter battery fire while the combat monster hacks his way through the meatshield.  Just like the mage is there to shut down the OTHER team's mage while our team's Rogue sneaks around the flank to backstab her.  

 

But none of this is a problem so long as the players understand that what's good for the goose is good for the gander.  Yeah, no city watchman or mook goblin will have Combat Luck or Deadly Blow or know Sylvan War Lore (the much whispered about and possibly only mythical elven martial art).  But eventually the party will come across people who DO.  

Sounds like issues with overall skill levels in general. 

I can recall various books pointing similar issues which tie into another threads issues of balance.

The fact 6th edition has a heroic level that is just 25 pts less of what we used to call beginning supers (200 pts) blows me away.

Sounds more like Fantasy super agents to me. But I'm an old grognard.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Sounds like issues with overall skill levels in general.

I can recall various books pointing similar issues which tie into another threads issues of balance.

The fact 6th edition has a heroic level that is just 25 pts less of what we used to call beginning supers (200 pts) blows me away.

Sounds more like Fantasy super agents to me. But I'm an old grognard.

The additional points are necessary because characteristics are more costly because of the separation of figureds. However with several characteristics that drop in cost, that evens out a little bit.

[Christopher R Taylor]

In my opinion, Deadly Blow is more egregious than Martial Arts. Adding only +1 or +2 DC of additive damage classes isnt that bad in the scheme of things. Deadly Blow adding +3 Damage Classes of base damage is far more powerful.

 

 

Its not available in any of my games.  I don't even know why its an option unless its just an attempt to simulate the D&D feat.

[Cantriped]

I generally dislike talents, so I almost never allow them in my campaigns (Lightning Reflexes is a common exception). I would always rather players built such abilities using legal power constructs.

 

It is worth noting however that with rare exception, all of the talents are legal power constructs. For brevity they simply omit the construct's write-up. Deadly Blow is just a stack of high point CSLs limited to being applied to damage for example.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Its not available in any of my games. I don't even know why its an option unless its just an attempt to simulate the D&D feat.

Yeah its just a feat like construct. Its there to help simulate extra damage like from a Backstab or a Slayer construct. It works well for these things when you apply it at low levels, but slapping a full D6 of killing damage per "level" is way too much, especially if players are allowed to buy more thab 1d6 of it.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I generally dislike talents, so I almost never allow them in my campaigns (Lightning Reflexes is a common exception). I would always rather players built such abilities using legal power constructs.

 

It is worth noting however that with rare exception, all of the talents are legal power constructs. For brevity they simply omit the construct's write-up. Deadly Blow is just a stack of high point CSLs limited to being applied to damage for example.

I like Talents when they are reasonably balanced. I encourage the purchase of Talents over full blown powers in Fantasy Hero. Keep in mind that Talents are just low level power constructs. I design a lot of these things to give players plenty of options. They can go a long way toward differentiating characters from one another even though they may have similar character templates.

[Ninja-Bear]

I only have 4th Edition Fantasy Hero handy, but I don't think the weapon and armor tables have actually changed, or at least haven't changed much. As a source of pre-written PCs, we have the Flashing Blades in that book. I know damage stacking rules have changed a bit, but let's see how they stack up against the 10DC quarterstaff martial artist in the OP:

 

Dannor. Dwarf Fighter. He's swinging a battle axe for 2d6, with +10 STR Min, and +4 Levels. I think by 4th Edition rules he can't use the 2 pt levels for boosting damage, so that's +2 levels. Max DC: 6 (base) + 2 (STR add) + 1 (2 levels) = 9.

 

Kandlin: Human Ranger. His best attack is his Falchion, max DC: 5 (base) + 1 (STR add) + 2 DC (MA: Offensive Strike) = 8. Note here that Kandlin has Martial Arts but no Skill Levels with the Falchion, and the reverse is true for Dannor. (He does have skill levels with the bow, which has higher base DC, but he can't add anything to it from levels or STR over the minima.)

 

Thelona: Elf Swashbuckler. Uses a broadsword (odd choice for buckling swashes, but w/e), max DC: 4 (base) + 2 DC (MA: Offensive Strike) = 6 DC. But she's not really a front line combatant, and has a lot of points sunk into being an Elf. Again, she has MA but no Skill levels.

 

Mikkal: Human Bard. Mace, max DC: 4 (Base) +1 (STR over Min) + 2 (Offensive Strike) = 7. Again, MA but no Skill Levels.

 

Esterkan: Human Cutpurse: Short Sword, max DC: 3 (Base) + 1 (STR) + 1 (levels) = 5. Skill monkey. Skill Levels here, but no MA.

 

Zorra: Human Priestess: Halberd! Finally, a bigger weapon. (She's a priestess of a war god.) Max DC: 7 (base) + 1 (levels) = 8. Higher STR min for the Halberd kept her in check, along with a lack of skill levels.

 

Jalak: Half-Orc Ex-Witch Doctor: Long Spear, Max DC: 6 (base) + 2 (STR) + 1 (Skill Levels) = 9 DCs

 

It's late, so I'm going to skip the Mage and the Halfling Ex-Apprentice. They're at similarly low damage levels for melee to the Cutpurse.

 

The Sample Characters seem to fit in with the Western Shores sample campaign, but the book omits the Campaign Ground Rules Sheet for the Western Shores, but it does list some suggested Power Levels (p 121): Beginning Range: 2-6 DC, Max 9.

 

Well, there you have it. Max 9. The three highest damage melee combatants are all DC 9 Max, if you don't count the possibility of Haymakers. (So, not sure if the intent is to ignore Standard Maneuvers with the limit or if Haymakers just aren't considered b/c of genre reasons or because of their slow speed.) None of them have martial arts and skill levels that can add to damage (3pt level and above). None of those with Martial Arts have added DCs.

 

I think that 10DCs probably isn't out of line considering it's only one DC higher, but it looks like the old sample characters were simply built as "Don't exceed X DCs." So. Tell your players the Max DC for the campaign, and tell them if they build something that can do over Max DC whether by design or by accident, you'll let them move some character points elsewhere, should it come up in play at a later date. It's perfectly fine, IMO to adjust characters a bit after the first few sessions to give people (GM included) a chance to get used to the system, and to iron out any differences in baseline assumptions (between players, GM, the rulebooks, the adventure) amicably.

Fwiw the campaign ground sheet is filled out on pg 149

[Hyper-Man]

I generally dislike talents, so I almost never allow them in my campaigns (Lightning Reflexes is a common exception). I would always rather players built such abilities using legal power constructs.

 

It is worth noting however that with rare exception, all of the talents are legal power constructs. For brevity they simply omit the construct's write-up. Deadly Blow is just a stack of high point CSLs limited to being applied to damage for example.

 

This is very similar to how I usually use "Talents".  I've never agreed with their special status of a separate category equal to but different than Skills and Powers.  This is overly complicated when what they effectively are is just a default list of Powers and Skills that are available for purchase by ALL characters (Heroic and SuperHeroic).  In hindsight, their presentation should have reflected this by using a similar format to that of Champions Powers (6e) or USPD (5e) with the 'how to build' bits included up front instead of being buried in an appendix.  An additional line or two could have been added stating that GMs could always 'standardize' the costs of the "Talents" as currently presented.  All of that was likely even considered and then dropped to the current format for the sake of dropping word count.

 

HM

[Pattern Ghost]

Fwiw the campaign ground sheet is filled out on pg 149

 

Page 149 of 4th Edition Fantasy Hero is blank.

[Hugh Neilson]

This is very similar to how I usually use "Talents".  I've never agreed with their special status of a separate category equal to but different than Skills and Powers.  This is overly complicated when what they effectively are is just a default list of Powers and Skills that are available for purchase by ALL characters (Heroic and SuperHeroic).  In hindsight, their presentation should have reflected this by using a similar format to that of Champions Powers (6e) or USPD (5e) with the 'how to build' bits included up front instead of being buried in an appendix.  An additional line or two could have been added stating that GMs could always 'standardize' the costs of the "Talents" as currently presented.  All of that was likely even considered and then dropped to the current format for the sake of dropping word count.

I think there was a considered decision made to present Talents in a "mechanics-light" fashion, and even adding the builds to the Appendix only done to satisfy those who just HAD to see how they were built, with some considerations to leaving that out of the book but making it available online.

 

I think Talents fit best in a "powered by Hero" model, a game where you don't design your own abilities, but which has the Hero engine driving it behind the scenes (that is, a game, rather than a game system). Presented as examples of a game operated on those principals, where the players must choose the available (feats, spells, class abilities, race abilities, etc.) without being permitted to revise or redesign them, I think talents would be a much better fit.

[Ninja-Bear]

Page 149 of 4th Edition Fantasy Hero is blank.

Not mine. On the other side is the map of the Western Shores though i'll double check the page number again.

[Pattern Ghost]

Ah, never mind. Found it. Weird.

[Ninja-Bear]

Well I was going to suggest using a spell to reveal it.

[Pattern Ghost]

Catch-22, without the campaign guidelines I didn't know what point limits for the spell.

[Ninja-Bear]

I like feats too and like to write up the relevant ones for Hero system.