Old Player with Old Issue - Str plus HtH attacks plus Martial Arts

[Hyper-Man]

Hyperman there is a rule whereas if you buy another martial art ks at 11- you can use any maneuver that overlaps with your original art at no extra cost.

I don't think that option allows weapon-only maneuvers to be used unarmed though.

 

HM

[Ninja-Bear]

I don't think that option allows weapon-only maneuvers to be used unarmed though.

 

HM

You can if you buy weapon element barehanded

 

Your right that if you stay strickly with the lists as written you probably can't however I don't know how many do so you should be aware of the possibility.

[Ninja-Bear]

Although is said ban weapon element since that is the easiest, in my own games, I would just highly restrict it to Masters and such.

[Hyper-Man]

Fencing and Kenjutsu have very specific restrictions on how their damage maneuvers can be used unarmed. 

 

Allowing a single puchase of a +4DC maneuver count as a 2-handed attack for 1 art and a kick for another just seems wrong.  I personally would require the same mechanical maneuver to be purchased twice in that case.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I would never require someone to purchase the same maneuver more than once. Purchasing the KS simulates the time and effort studying the new art and learning to apply its techniques.

[eepjr24]

I would never require someone to purchase the same maneuver more than once. Purchasing the KS simulates the time and effort studying the new art and learning to apply its techniques.

I can see going either way on this, depending on the campaign. To me it's kind of like knowing how to use a blast and then learning to add to it through a focus. 2 point KS just does not seem to cover it all. 

 

For example, if you know Jujutsu, learning to use it with a sword would involve using a sword with a sacrifice throw and a str+v/5 target falls, along with learning sword disarm techniques and sword blocks, at a minimum. That seems like a lot in a heroic setting. In a superhero setting? Totally possible.

 

- E

[Ninja-Bear]

Fencing and Kenjutsu have very specific restrictions on how their damage maneuvers can be used unarmed.

 

Allowing a single puchase of a +4DC maneuver count as a 2-handed attack for 1 art and a kick for another just seems wrong. I personally would require the same mechanical maneuver to be purchased twice in that case.

I never really liked how certain maneuvers can add to weapons by special effect but others don't.

[Hyper-Man]

Well Martial Arts, especially the real world ones, are special effect based. They assume a human shaped bipedal form.

 

 

HM

[Lucius]

Well Martial Arts, especially the real world ones, are special effect based. They assume a human shaped bipedal form.

 

 

HM

Really? That's funny. I've put Martial Arts on nonhumanoids.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

So you're saying a palindromedary can't have Martial Arts?

[Ninja-Bear]

So Lucius would a palindromenary doiing a back kick be a front kick? Or is the front kick a back kick?

 

Either way, do they have to pay for defense maneuver: no attacker considered behind?

[Beast]

You as GM can just say "No that is too much damage"

[Steve]

Perhaps maneuvers that do more than +2 DC could be disallowed in the campaign? That would also hold down the damage a bit.

[Nolgroth]

You know how it is with role playing games.   Any weapon with an East Asian origin will usually be at least a little bit better than its European counterpart.   

 

 

I would like this fifty times if I could.

 

Got him for you. Besides, there is truth to that statement. 

[Asperion]

In this case I would tell the player that either the Offensive Strike or Quarter Staff could be used but not both. That would reduce the damage some and is more fitting the role and feel of the martial artist, both of which have been mentioned by others.

[Ninja-Bear]

Always thought aboutnketting weapon damage be independant damage.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I think being able to add Martial Arts damage to weapons is one of the fundamentally cool aspects to Hero's combat system. In fact, it was one of the first games I saw that would allow this (Rolemaster as well) and to take it away diminishes the combat system, in my eyes.

 

How you make a barehanded Martial Artist perform uniquely is by allowing them to develop special techniques (i.e. write up some offensive martial arts powers) which they can then use with Martial Maneuvers to keep up with the weapon weilders.

 

Or you can rule that only barehanded Martial Artists can benefit from the Extra DC bonus in the Martial Arts rules.

[NuSoardGraphite]

The question here is: Is 10 DC too much for the campaign at hand?

 

Lets say the average combatant has a resistant defense of 6 and a PD of 6, for a total defense of 12. 10 DC means on average they take 0 Body and 23 Stun. This means for a combatant with 30 or so Stun will be taken out in 2 strikes.

 

Lets put them up against a more powerful opponent with 8 res def, 8 PD and 40 stun. On average this opponent will take 0 Body and 19 Stun. It will take 2 to 3 strikes to take them out.

 

Lets go tougher. Next opponent is a dragon with a res def of 12 and a PD of 16! Total defense of 28. That means on average it takes 0 Body and 7 Stun. On a critical hit it takes 8 Body and 32 Stun. That would hurt it, but not kill it. It would take at least three of these crits to even kill the beast (more than that actually, to take the dragon to negative 20 or more Body and with no chance of Impairing or Disabling wounds outside of a head hit!) But considering most rolls in Hero skew toward the average, especially when throwing that many dice, this should be a fairly rare occurrance.

 

I would be okay with this in my game. I want the PCs to be able to take out normal opponents with only one or two well placed strikes (well placed meaning at least average damage or better)

 

For more dangerous opponents, the danger comes less from being able to survive multiple solid blows and comes more from being able to competently dodge or deflect the PCs blows. The PC will begin to miss from time to time, allowing this enemy a chance to counter attack, now forcing the PC to dodge or block and now the tactical aspects of the system comes into play.

 

The really dangerous opponents can both survive solid blows AND force the PCs to use tactics to defeat. That Dragon has a higher speed than the PCs (speed 5 vs 3 and 4), a higher natural OCV than the PCs, a wider variety of attacks than most PCs (including area of effect attacks to deal with those pesky high DCV rogues) and can survive even a critical hit or near max damage roll. Thats why they are so dangerous.

[Richgee]

To go back to your initial question there are no rules to prevent a heroic character from buying 20 str and as many dc as they like plus martial manoeuvres, except those you enforce on them through campaign character creation guidelines.

 

If your players are the type that push the limits in damage constantly their characters will lack in other areas. If no one pays for pre or ego stats have monsters intimidate with pre attacks and teach them the value of the other stats. A brick barbarian martial artist with a 12d6 hth attack is no good to anyone if he runs from tough talking pixies.

[Cantriped]

I am generally of the opinion that armor in Fantasy HERO doesn't provide nearly defense by default. The rules say that Full Gothic Platemail grants only 8 or 9 DEF, but history indicates that an opponent in full-plate only takes STUN from the majority of attacks against them. Most swords of the era were intended to be used as clubs against armored enemies, you beat them down and then stick a pointy end in-between the plates when they are too exhausted to stand.

 

If you feel like martial artists are able to dish out too much damage, I would start by doubling the value of armor across the board. If you don't mind the bloated write-ups I would also suggest that you make armor provide nonresistant defense equal to it's resistant defense (so that Gothic plate provides 8 PD plus 8 rPD, for a total a 16 PD against STUN and Normal BODY damage.

 

There are powers besides Attack powers can be increased by the proper type of combat skill levels. 3 to 5 point CSLs in Magic for example should be able to be used to improve a wizard's "Shield" spell (built as limited Resistant Protection or Barrier). Likewise, I don't see why a warrior couldn't purchase CSLs to improve their DCV, rPD, or rED while wearing particular types of armor.

[Wardsman]

I am generally of the opinion that armor in Fantasy HERO doesn't provide nearly defense by default. The rules say that Full Gothic Platemail grants only 8 or 9 DEF, but history indicates that an opponent in full-plate only takes STUN from the majority of attacks against them. Most swords of the era were intended to be used as clubs against armored enemies, you beat them down and then stick a pointy end in-between the plates when they are too exhausted to stand.

 

Does that include the padding underneath?

Maybe metal armor should have some nonresistant bonus to account for that?

[Cantriped]

If I remember correctly the fluff description includes padding.

As a GM, if you wanted to beef up the armors without replacing their existing builds; you could rule that armor listed in the book doesn't include padding, and that padding may can be bought separately from and improves upon or stacks with existing types of armor listed in the book. It would then be built like any other kind of armor, with limited coverage, or even special/limited defenses if they are magical or technological in nature (Acid resistant aprons, fire-retardant jumpsuit, drowish spider silk bullet-proof garments, etc).

[Richgee]

The question is not is armour good enough it is how much damage is too much.

 

If you take your knight in full plate armour pd 6 rpd 8, the average peasant will do 1d6hkd against him. Which on average is absolutely nothing. Which is what you would expect. If he's up against a man at arms then allow 2d6 which is an average of 0 body and 7 stun which represents your knight getting beat down.

 

First though he has to get hit. Your average knight will have been trained in the use of armour from the age of 10, the notion of knights getting hoisted on to horses is a fallacy. In the same way archers deformed their bodies from constant practice so did knights. The armour was built to perfectly fit and the knight would have suffered very little encumberance from the armour. Slap a 60 pound pack on your back and jog 10 miles as an average guy and you will regret it. But even with a few months training you start to miss the weight when you take the pack off. It was the same for the knights.

 

The real issue is if your highly skilled knight is going up against a Dragon he needs magic armour. There is a reason that the entrance to the dragons lair is littered with the bodies of other knights.

 

If your pc's are in the 75point region they are in the top 5% of their profession. They are the elite.

 

Also remember the damage roll is only the climax of a hit roll. You still need to actually hit the knight to affect the damage. The peasant will have an ocv of 3 the man at arms maybe 5 your 75 point knight will have a dcv of 7+ so the chance to score a hit is slim.

 

In a low fantasy setting your knight is a battle field God. In a high fantasy setting magic armour is not that uncommon, so his survival rate should be reasonable even against mythic beasts.

 

Balance is key. You cannot impose the same limits across the board. Increasing base armour values is not the answer build them into magic items for high fantasy.

 

That's how I handle it but obviously it's not the only way.

[phydaux]

It has been years since I've been looking at Hero, but I'm running a game again and coming back to an old problem. At Heroic Level, it is too easy for a martial artist type, with weapon element, and something like a quarter staff, to very quickly be doing superhero levels of damage.

 

There was always a nice control on KAs, where adding STR can't more than double a KA damage. ON Hand Attacks (adding normal dice) the ability to stack to crazy levels was always a quick way to break a game.

 

Question... are there newer rules around this I should reference? Is it logical to say "Of all the things being stacked, the largest value is the base, and that base can't be more than doubled." ??

Example... 20 STR/4d6 (crazy high for Heroic level, but happens)... plus Offensive Strike (another 4d6)... plus Quarter Staff (another 4d6)... and suddenly you have a martial artist hitting at super-Brick levels.  TOTALLY fine for Superheroic... but for Heroic, how about this maxing out at 8d6, no more than doubling the highest base value?

Thanks for any thoughts on this.

 

 

Reading this over, my first thought is "He forgot Deadly Blow."

[phydaux]

Seriously though, my go-to fantasy character has 18 STR, a bastard sword, and Deadly Blow with swords.  Add in a few skill levels and he routinely swings 3d6 HtHKA.  That's only 5 active points less than your "problem child" player.

 

But take away his sword and he's, well, not exactly a GIMP, but he's FAR less effective.  

 

Plus, he's "the combat monster."  That's his stichk.  So I don't have him do anything else.  Somebody else can be the guy with the Longbow and Deadly Blow with Bows.  And somebody ELSE can be the Scout/Rogue.  And somebody needs to be the Face.  My gaming group has an unwritten rule that players don't step on each other's stichk.

[Richgee]

I don't think that is excessive for a fantasy campaign. I'm assuming your characters are "hero" level and regularly combat fantasy monsters.

 

For fantasy higher dc's 9-10 is not too high if that is balanced by the enemies you face.

 

Where the problems arise is when a gm is talking about realistic damage when running a fantasy campaign, but is unwilling to set limits. Hero is an open system with little limits on character creation and open to abuse if a gm allows players to build as they see fit rather than set limits that fit the campaign. I have only ever had issues around this while playing as a pc, with gms who would rather try to please everyone than enforce some basic world rules.

 

The bottom line has to be if you don't want 75 point pc's to have 12dc attacks don't let them. But if it balances your game what is the issue.