Wound/Stress Thresholds

[FeralFly]

Thanks again for all of the great comments, people!

 

 

I like the ideas from Mutants & Masterminds, but I don't like how they do it (basically, every wound is almost treated equally, being worth just 1 point – even though, yes, they do offer different conditions). 

 

Now, the following ideas are just some thought experiments going through my head, but please tell me what you think. Obviously, there will be some balancing issues (maybe a Minor wound is any BODY taken up to the serious level, for example), but the important thing to keep in mind is the main idea: wound levels and such instead of pools of points.

 

BODY:

There are four levels of injury: Minor, Serious, Critical, and Taken Out. These levels correspond to 0.25x, 0.50x, 1.00x, 2.00x BODY and are rounded at each level. For example: BODY 13 would be C = 13. Then 0.50x would give us 6.5, which is rounded to 7. And 0.50x of that would be 3.5, rounded to 4. Finally, 2.00x of BODY would be 26. So, the final setup would be M4, S7, C13, and T26.

 

Minor injuries are just that – minor. They provide a penalty to OCV that last for one Phase. This is similar to Shock in GURPS. A character can use a Half Phase Action and make an EGO roll to grind his teeth and ignore up to EGO/5 worth of penalty points. The amount of penalty points he ignores is one per every two points of Margin of Success he gets on the EGO roll. This kind of avoids the dreaded death spiral.

 

Serious injuries are also as their name applies – serious. Something has broken, or a tendon has been severed, or something else equally horrible that means function has been lost or seriously impaired. First, your Movement is reduced to half – it’s just painful to move. Second, you are at –1 to all rolls (this means OCV and skill rolls, not DCV; it also means characteristic rolls, too). Third, while serious injuries are not immediately life-threatening, they can get worse and degrade to critical (more on this later). Finally, when you take a serious injury, you have to make a “Shock” CON Roll (similar to the one in Blue Planet). Failure means you are deeply stunned and fall to the ground. You cannot wake up unless someone helps you with an appropriate skill roll modified by your Total Injury Penalty. If you fail by four or more, you succumb to shock and might eventually die (most likely out of combat). Someone can help you (as above), but success only renders you Knocked Out – you aren’t coming back into this fight. The Shock CON Roll could be modified, but I’m not sure about it yet.

 

Also, the penalties resulting from injuries could just be applied when relevant. I’m trying to think of a way to somehow avoid more of a death spiral here, but serious injuries should reduce some of your abilities.

 

Critical injuries are just that – critical. These are life-threatening injuries that will kill you – if not outright, then eventually. When you take a critical injury, you must roll a “Trauma” BOD Roll (possibly being modified by some penalty number, but I’m not sure yet). Failure means that you have gone into shock and are dying – you will need medical aid, and fast, to survive this. Failure by four or more means you have died – shot through the heart and all that. Success means that you have to make a Shock CON Roll and go from there.

 

Taken out injuries are just what the name implies – you’re taken out. The amount of damage you’ve suffered is just too much and you are shuffled loose from the mortal coil: you die. I’m not too wed to this idea; critical injuries could just have an ever-increasing Trauma BOD Roll attached to it, making death all the more certain.

 

Another thing that could be toyed with is what Silhouette Core does: System Shock. It is essentially Hit Points, but it doesn’t function in the same way as HP functions. It’s basically the maximum amount of penalty points you can take (Minor is 1pt, Serious 2pt, and Critical 3pt) before succumbing to shock. It might not really have a place in the system I’ve described above, but it could be tailored to fit. Imagine that the System Shock is the amount of penalty points you can take before the Shock and Trauma Rolls receive worse penalties. That’s just an idea, though!

 

As for stun… Well, that will have to be for another time!

 

Thanks for reading. Please remember: none of what I've said is set in stone — I'm just brainstorming!

[Steve]

Hmm...

 

My takeaway from your proposed damage mechanics is that it actually seems to me to be more complicated than the present one, what with adding various stat-based rolls to figure out how hurt your character is after taking damage and attempting to mitigate the effects.

 

In my experience, more rolls equals slower combat.

[steriaca]

If it is more complicated than basic math, I don't see a need for it. Hero got along for decades with Stun, Rec, Body, ect. We don't need Wound Levels.

 

Also, more rolling and longer combat is never a good thing.

[FeralFly]

Thank you for your comments!

 

But... please read my original post and the subsequent ones I have made. This thread is just about a thought experiment — I don't honestly expect anyone else to use these mechanics, especially not people who already love the system as it is. I am not fixing anything, since nothing is broken or needs tweaking; I am tweaking the system because I enjoy tweaking and because HERO specifically encourages this in the last few pages.

 

If it helps, imagine I'm asking a question about how to build a certain power rather than tweak the rules.

 

In my opinion, and I mean this in the nicest, friendliest way possible, saying things like "It would be more complex, require more rolling, and make combats longer" is not constructive criticism (for me, at least) and not grounds for dismissal. Anyone who plays HERO can add, subtract, multiply, and divide, or has someone in their group who can. This is an assumption based on the math involved in character creation. Also, if someone uses certain powers (damage reduction, I believe?), they will have to have a calculator handy to calculate 25%, 50%, or 75% damage reduction (or be good at doing math in their heads).

 

Everything looks more complex than it is the first time you read about it. Part of that is on me, as maybe I could have been clearer just how easy it is to calculate this stuff ahead of time before you actually go into combat and how you wouldn't have to recalculate it during an exciting scene. It's also a bit more convoluted than it will be just because it is in its brainstorming stage — once I can work out the potential kinks, it will be much easier to use, I swear!

 

It wouldn't really require more rolling if I tweaked other options (imagine that the knock-back roll was just BODY damage caused minus the Standard Effect Rule of the dice; the standard being 2d6, that would usually be 6 SER, I think). And there are many rules in the book for making combats shorter. I could eliminate the SPD chart, for example (not that I would want to!) or not use hit locations. Also, since each character would be in bad shape after just one serious injury, let alone a critical injury, combats might even be shorter than expected.

 

It is fine to have your own opinion, but outright dismissing my thought experiment is not a good, constructive way to help me. I understand that having REC, BODY, STUN, and END give a certain flavor to certain genres. I love the way they work, believe me! I just want to see what would have to happen to change how they work within the framework of HERO.

 

 

 

So, that being said, thanks again!

[Steve]

In my opinion, and I mean this in the nicest, friendliest way possible, saying things like "It would be more complex, require more rolling, and make combats longer" is not constructive criticism (for me, at least) and not grounds for dismissal. Anyone who plays HERO can add, subtract, multiply, and divide, or has someone in their group who can. This is an assumption based on the math involved in character creation. Also, if someone uses certain powers (damage reduction, I believe?), they will have to have a calculator handy to calculate 25%, 50%, or 75% damage reduction (or be good at doing math in their heads).

 

...

 

It is fine to have your own opinion, but outright dismissing my thought experiment is not a good, constructive way to help me. I understand that having REC, BODY, STUN, and END give a certain flavor to certain genres. I love the way they work, believe me! I just want to see what would have to happen to change how they work within the framework of HERO.

 

Okay, I'm going to start by saying I wasn't dismissing your basic concept of trying to resolve combat and damage differently than the standard rules. It's an intriguing notion.

 

However, you're coming across as being way too defensive of even mild critiques. I think I'll bow out of the commentary at this time.

[steriaca]

I agree. Your too emotionally attached to this "thought experment".

Because of that, your lossing focus on the true questions. What makes This system better than the old system? Is it quicker? What about this new system would be worth the complexity and extendant combat?

[Hyper-Man]

I keep re-reading all the posts and I can't help but think that removing/combining STUN with BODY to determine the effect of 'wounds' is removing a key feature of HERO (the ability to bring down an opponent via non-permanent damage).  That just seems like creating Hit Points by another name (and even systems with Hit Points usually have some type of non-lethal 'stunning' rule bolted on to them).

 

HERO is a game with a foundation of mechanics that get overlaid with special effect descriptions.  It sounds like you are attempting to combine the two with no real purpose.  I also have yet to see an answer to a question that has been asked multiple times so far....

 

Have you looked at the Automaton Rules (Specifically, Takes No Stun)? Your efforts seem to be trying to recreate its effects.

 

Also, have you given any thought as to how characters would increase their resistance to taking damage (via spending XP) in your thought experiment?

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

There was a recent thread about trying to re-build Martial Art Maneuvers as Powers and I believe that one question provided an 'aha moment' to the original poster.  The question was, "how would they re-build the Basic Combat Maneuvers like Block?" There really isn't a way to do that.  It's a core assumption of the system. 

 

Another recent conversation on the Facebook Hero Fan Page confirmed that many GM's encounter the following situation.  After a new player sees the 'toolkit' blurb on the back of the rulebook they react with "Challenge Accepted!" and attempt to build some of the most hideously complex characters (like Rogue from the X-Men). 

 

I am pretty sure I am not alone in thinking that STUN is one of those mechanics like the Basic Combat Maneuvers in HERO that can't really be changed without the result no longer being HERO.  It's not using the Toolkit, rather, it's like trying to make a better wrench.

 

HM

[Beast]

you could impose  a -1 ocv at greater than 1/3 stun taken ,-2 ocv at greater than 2/3 stun taken
you could also use the impairing rules

Hello all,

 

 

Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to my post. Although I do appreciate the effort you have put into your comments, my question hasn't really be touched upon:

 

Is there any way to model BODY and STUN damage with thresholds (or something else that I haven't though of) instead of a pool of points?

 

I am not trying to change HERO or the underlying system. I am wondering if there is a way to model BODY and STUN (and yes, eventually END) differently than as per the base rules? Just like it says you can add MANA or SANS characteristics to model magic and sanity loss, I am wondering if there is a way to change how BODY and STUN are used in the game (or just take them away)? Obviously doing so will have great repercussions, but I'm not worried about those — I'm just looking for ideas. 

 

Let me make something clear: I am not saying there is anything is wrong with HERO as written. I love the game, I really do. I like the way BODY, STUN, and END work. I have no issues with the SPD chart and using an Excel spreadsheet to create a character and run combats effectively. I love that part. However, I also want to try something a bit different. I have toyed around with the optional rules, especially the Injury rules on Breaking Limbs (6E2 107) and the Impairing and Disabling rules (6E2 111), but they just left me wondering if HERO could do a little more.

 

I am not interesting in changing the entire system or creating a new one. I am just wondering if someone has ever tried to change the way BODY, STUN, and END work in the game using the recommendations in the book on how to tweak the system, and what results they got from it (I'm also interested in any thought experiments on the subject people have had). The rule book states that we can change it as we wish, so I am trying to do just that. I am not trying to say that there is a "problem" with HERO; quite the contrary, I'm trying to see just how far the rules can go!

 

And if you've got other ideas that don't involve thresholds, I'd love to hear them.

 

 

 

Thanks!

[Hugh Neilson]

It seems like there are three different objectives being bandied about.

 

One is "only killing, no stunning" leading to "have you tried the automaton rules?" I don't think that is the question - it seems like the intent is to keep knockout and death separate.

 

The second is whether we could use a model where we compare the STUN and BOD damage to thresholds to determine the impact of that hit, rather than use the "hit point" model of a pool which is reduced by each successive hit. This is where the Mutants and Masterminds comparison comes in.

 

The third is whether we could impose some form of penalty, over and above progress towards knockout and/or death, from a hit, with the penalty growing as the hits get harder. That, to me, is risks the death spiral - getting hit early on makes it tougher to retaliate, reducing the ability to come back from an early disadvantage and snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Whether that is a pro or a con depends on the genre and desired tone of the game.

[Lucius]

 

Try this one for size:

 

Keep the BOD score but don't roll BOD damage for attacks - only use the STUN totals.

 

You could still use Killing Attacks but only roll BOD as a basis to calculate STUN. Or you could kill off Killing Attacks and use a Normal Attack with Attack vs Limited Defense: Resistant DEF for lethal weapons etc.

 

Stunning works as standard, if STUN damage past defenses overcomes CON, character loses a phase.

 

If STUN damage exceeds the STUN score, character is unconscious; make a CON roll to recover consciousness at each stage of the Time Chart, like breakout rolls for Mental Powers. Also like breakout rolls, for each 5 pts over STUN the attack did, subtract 1 from the required roll.

 

If stunned while already stunned, roll CON or be knocked out.

 

As for wounds, still following the Mental Power model, compare to BOD and see how much the STUN damage exceeded the BOD by.

 

BOD +20 wounded: make an EGO roll or next phase can only act defensively.

 

BOD +30 impaired: roll Hit Location and consult the charts the game already uses for impairing wounds.

 

BOD +40 disabled: roll HIt Location and consult the charts the game already uses etc.

 

BOD +50 potential mortal wound: Make a BOD roll each Turn during post segment 12, or perish. Add +1 each turn and if you ever make it by 5 you are "stabilized" as you are also of course if someone makes a First Aid roll or uses a healing ability etc. If stable, only roll at each step of the time chart for survival, until getting medical treatment or similar intervention.

 

 

Now, you will still have to figure out how to change Healing and Regeneration which obviously don't work as written if STUN and BOD are no long a pool of points that are lost to damage...

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if shibbydibby is just pursuing complexity for its own sake

[bigdamnhero]

Hurt. A -1 penalty to STR, DEX, and CON rolls. Occurs when down more than 1/5th BODY. 

Injured. A -1 penalty to all characteristic rolls and movement is at -4m (full and half moves affected). Occurs when down more than 2/5th BODY.

Wounded. A -1 penalty to all characteristic, perception and associated skill rolls and movement is at -6m (full and half moves affected). Occurs when down more than half BODY.

Mauled. A -2 penalty to all characteristic, perception and associated skill rolls and movement is at -6m (full and half moves affected). NCM is no longer permitted. Occurs when down more than 3/5th BODY.

Crippled. A -3 penalty to all characteristic, perception and associated skill rolls and movement is at -8m (full and half moves affected). NCM is no longer permitted. Occurs when down more than 4/5th BODY.

We played with something along these lines once. (Details lost to the mists of time.) It certainly added a fair amount of grittiness to combat, which could be appropriate for certain games/genres, but IIRC we didn't feel the benefits were worth the added complexity, so we dropped it.

 

BODY:

There are four levels of injury: Minor, Serious, Critical, and Taken Out. These levels correspond to 0.25x, 0.50x, 1.00x, 2.00x BODY and are rounded at each level.

It sounds like you're trying to get away from D&D-style "death from a thousand cuts" where the effects of minor wounds are cumulative and pile up until the target is eventually overcome (ie runs out of HP) and dies from the last paper cut. Personally, I sympathize - that's always been one of my least-favorite parts of the D&D combat system, and others derived from it. And Hero already goes a long way towards getting away from that by lowering average BODY totals compared to average weapon damages. (Tho what's "average" varies by game & genre, natch.)

 

So I think I get what you're trying to do, but I think your proposal goes too far in the opposite direction.

• Essentially you've turned Minor wounds into something that sounds a lot like Stunning? By splitting BODY & STUN, Hero already has a mechanism for shrugging off non-lethal injuries that don't add up to fatal damage - no need to duplicate that within the BODY damage rules.
• There's a huge step increase from Minor to Serious Injuries. Minor I can basically shrug off, whereas Serious can take me completely out of the fight with one bad CON Roll?
• So a character with 3 Serious wounds (or 30?) is no worse off than a character with one Serious wound? At some level, that sort of damage is cumulative. Even minor wounds can add up.
• From a game balance standpoint, if I know my players are going to be able to ignore a lot of Minor Wounds, then the only way I can effectively challenge them is to up the bad guys' attacks until they are likely to cause Serious or better wounds. That's going to seriously increase the lethality of the game - your PCs will either be able to completely ignore armies of mooks, or go down quickly from One Lucky Roll. So make sue that's the game you want to play.
• One of your tags says "Make Hero Faster" - I can't see how any of this is going to speed up play. Quite the opposite in fact.

[FeralFly]

Hello all,

 

 

Thanks again for the great comments. If I could figure out how to quote with this, I'd do it. I know it's probably really easy, but until then, we'll go old school.

 

Conceptually, I am borrowing heavily from HERO System, Synergy System (Blue Planet), and Silhouette Core (SilCore). To some extend, Mutants and Masterminds is in there, but I haven't actually flipped through those pages for quite some time. Both the Synergy System and SilCore have wound levels - though they handle them differently. In neither case does tracking wounds bog down game-play - at least in my experience - YMMV.

 

I've reread some parts of HERO System... I did read (and reread) the automaton rules. They are very interesting, but not exactly what I'm looking for. I do like the idea about whenever an automaton takes BODY damage, its effectiveness is reduced. I also reread the rules for breaking limbs, impairing, and disabling. I am also conceding the fact that STUN does do a pretty nice job of representing non-lethal wounds. In terms of SilCore, it would be the bashing damage.

 

Mixing all of that in my head, here goes.

 

Taking the idea of adding a characteristic to do what needs to be done, let's invent one and call it Durability (DUR). DUR starts at 5 and can be bought for 5 CP (but that number is really up for grabs). This is the amount of Injury Levels your character can sustain before succumbing to shock, no rolls necessary. bigdamnhero, this addresses the million minor wounds bit. Even if you're not suffering a penalty from your minor injuries because your character rolled a successful EGO Roll, the pain's still there somewhere and will take you out. Yes, this is a bit of a concession and acts like a pool of points, but since the maximum number you're keeping track of is 5 to 10 (in rare cases), it shouldn't add to much to the process (I've used a die before that I place next to units in skirmishes and it seems to run smoothly - you can even change the color if you suffer a serious wound so you can easily see that the character can only move half his normal distance).

 

Okay, so... imagine we roll damage as normal. Now we apply defenses. What's left is then compared to the BODY and STUN stats, and the following thresholds are used:

• Less than 1/3 BODY: This is a Minor Injury. It counts as 1 point against DUR. The GM may rule that you can shrug off the damage (to prevent "death by a thousand paper cuts". Basically, the GM might allow a few 1-2 BODY injuries before making them Minor Injuries, at least for PCs and important NPCs).
• Equal to or greater than 1/3 BODY: This is a Serious Injury. Since "breaking limbs" occurs at 1/3 BODY, and since I consider breaking bones and severing arms to be quite serious injuries, I figured this should be the threshold for serious injuries. Serious Injuries count as 2 points against DUR.
  • ​Make a Shock CON Roll. Read previous posts to see what this entails. I'm still not sure about modifiers here - should more total pain increase the chance of Shock? Passing the Shock Roll means you're at -1 to OCV, at half Movement, and are generally in a lot of pain.
• Greater Than BODY: This is basically Taken Out. If you make the roll to survive this, it counts as a "Critical Injury," which is simply treated as two Serious Injuries (basically 4 points against DUR). Your movement is at a quarter if you can still move.

 

Now, with STUN, I'll still have to take a rain check. I think it could be handled in a similar fashion, but be handled as Temporary Minor Injuries that can be recovered during combat. 

[Lucius]

 

You're on your own.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I have a palindromedary

[FeralFly]

Well, Lucius, thanks for the input!

 

I just had a couple of questions on what you had posted back there. The idea is to just roll Normal dice for everything, right? I thought about that for awhile, and do like the notion. 

 

As for the thresholds being BOD+20, +30, etc., how can we attain those high numbers? I think someone posted something a while back about having issues with the PRE Attack thresholds (or was it Mind Control?) and how it was difficult to reach the upper thresholds. And if I need to roll BOD+20, won't that always be above CON?

 

Say I'm running a (I don't have the PDF with me at the moment, so I don't remember the exact term) low-heroic game where the highest characteristics are around 18, maybe 20. How can they reach those higher levels?

 

Again, I really like the ideas your putting out there. Keep up the good work!

[whitekeys]

Hey OP,

 

Firstly, I feel a little embarrassed that the community is having such a hard time understanding what you're asking. I'm off to work, I plan on posting more on this later, but such comments as the following ...

 

I agree. Your too emotionally attached to this "thought experment".
Because of that, your lossing focus on the true questions. What makes This system better than the old system? Is it quicker? What about this new system would be worth the complexity and extendant combat?

 

 

... are unfortunate to say the least. I believe that the true questions can only be defined by the person asking them.What right do we have to tell the OP what they should be basing their decisions on? And the OP has written quite a bit to get their point across.

 

Until later when I have time...

 

To quote, find the post of the person you want to quote, and then click the Quote button on the lower right hand corner. This will open up the Reply dialogue with the entire post in "quotes". You can edit the quote if need be.

[steriaca]

Hey OP,

 

Firstly, I feel a little embarrassed that the community is having such a hard time understanding what you're asking. I'm off to work, I plan on posting more on this later, but such comments as the following ...

 

 

 

... are unfortunate to say the least. I believe that the true questions can only be defined by the person asking them.What right do we have to tell the OP what they should be basing their decisions on? And the OP has written quite a bit to get their point across.

 

Until later when I have time...

 

To quote, find the post of the person you want to quote, and then click the Quote button on the lower right hand corner. This will open up the Reply dialogue with the entire post in "quotes". You can edit the quote if need be.

I'm trying to convince the OP the fact "If it is not broke, don't fix it." I don't believe the system Hero has now is broken. In fact, it seems central to Hero itself. If you somehow take away the way Hero deals with damage, Hero stops being Hero. You might as well play thoes other games the OP posted about with Wound/Stress Thresholds.

 

As for "how dair I judge", the OP opened himself to it by creating this post. Note: I am not judging the OP himself. I'm sure he is a nice person. And it is nice to see him passionate about a subject. It is just that, I am scratching my head and asking myself "why? Why change what works so well?" And others are asking the same thing.

[bigdamnhero]

The line between "I don't see the point of that" and "that's a stupid idea" can be thin and sometimes subjective, particularly online. A lot of comments here have intended the former, but I agree a few may perhaps have shaded into the latter without meaning to. Apologies if mine was one of them.

 

That said, I'm afraid I still really don't see the point of what you're doing. That is, I get what you're trying to do but not why? What is the outcome you're trying to achieve that is different than what you're getting with the current rules? Without understanding the reasoning behind it, it's hard to offer constructive advice.

[FeralFly]

I'm trying to convince the OP the fact "If it is not broke, don't fix it." I don't believe the system Hero has now is broken. In fact, it seems central to Hero itself. If you somehow take away the way Hero deals with damage, Hero stops being Hero. You might as well play thoes other games the OP posted about with Wound/Stress Thresholds.

 

 

Steriaca, I understand your concerns with changing some of how HERO functions. However, I would like you to consider that changing how HERO deals with damage does not stop HERO from being HERO; rather, it might stop HERO from being Champions. I'm not saying that is what I am going for, but I am ceding that point. HERO is a toolbox for many different kinds of genres; changing some of the mechanics might give a different flavor to different genres - that's kind of why I'm doing this  .

[bigdamnhero]

I'm trying to convince the OP the fact "If it is not broke, don't fix it." I don't believe the system Hero has now is broken. In fact, it seems central to Hero itself. If you somehow take away the way Hero deals with damage, Hero stops being Hero. You might as well play thoes other games the OP posted about with Wound/Stress Thresholds.

In shibbydibby9's defense, he's hardly the first person on these boards to suggest toolkitting RAW to get a different type of game. And we don't normally stone those who suggest doing so and call them heretics. The ability to change Hero is part of what makes Hero great IMO. So it's not about whether or not something is broken - it's about changing a specific part of the rules to get a different type of game experience.

 

I think the problem is we're all still a little hazy on what type of different experience the OP is dialing for.

[FeralFly]

So now that I know how to quote people (thanks whitekeys!), this thread should be much easier to respond to...

 

The line between "I don't see the point of that" and "that's a stupid idea" can be thin and sometimes subjective, particularly online. A lot of comments here have intended the former, but I agree a few may perhaps have shaded into the latter without meaning to. Apologies if mine was one of them.

 

That said, I'm afraid I still really don't see the point of what you're doing. That is, I get what you're trying to do but not why? What is the outcome you're trying to achieve that is different than what you're getting with the current rules? Without understanding the reasoning behind it, it's hard to offer constructive advice.

 

The why is also a difficult thing to communicate, especially online, and especially when it is thinking outside of the gigantic box that is HERO. I like HERO and how it works, but that doesn't mean I don't like toying with it some from time to time. Some people like making powers (I believe there's currently another thread about statting out smart phones?), some people like making crazy characters (a character who uses mind control via cheesy one-liners), and others who like different things. I like making and tweaking rules.

 

The desired outcome is also difficult to imagine since adding something like damage thresholds hasn't really been done before. How can I know what will happen? Take the horror genre, for example. HERO says it can be done by using some of the alternate rules and even suggests using a SAN characteristic. The way in which SAN is described seems to borrow from BRP's Call of Cthulhu, unless it is just a happy coincidence. I mean, with Complications and an entire book of powers, creating SAN is not so necessary. So, if SAN is integral to Horror Hero, why can't changing how BODY and STUN work and adding in damage thresholds be integral to some Other Hero?

 

I guess my desired outcome is to have another flavor of combat for those HERO games when the players just don't want to use HP so much. Basically, I just want to have some fun in a different way. 

[eepjr24]

The why is also a difficult thing to communicate, especially online, and especially when it is thinking outside of the gigantic box that is HERO. I like HERO and how it works, but that doesn't mean I don't like toying with it some from time to time. Some people like making powers (I believe there's currently another thread about statting out smart phones?), some people like making crazy characters (a character who uses mind control via cheesy one-liners), and others who like different things. I like making and tweaking rules.

Just giving you how this sounds from behind my keyboard... "I don't really have a why other than tinkering for tinkering's sake". Which is fine, but not something most of us engage in much. We like to have a reason.

 

The desired outcome is also difficult to imagine since adding something like damage thresholds hasn't really been done before. How can I know what will happen? Take the horror genre, for example. HERO says it can be done by using some of the alternate rules and even suggests using a SAN characteristic. The way in which SAN is described seems to borrow from BRP's Call of Cthulhu, unless it is just a happy coincidence. I mean, with Complications and an entire book of powers, creating SAN is not so necessary. So, if SAN is integral to Horror Hero, why can't changing how BODY and STUN work and adding in damage thresholds be integral to some Other Hero?

You have given a very specific example that is almost exactly what everyone here wants. What are you trying to solve that makes the normal usage of Body and Stun not the integral solution for "Other Hero". Many of us here are not mainly Champions or exclusively Champions players. I most play/gm low to mid level Heroic in Fantasy, Urban Fantasy and Pulp / Agent genre. Body and Stun work fine for me in all of those as well as my occasional Champs game. So it's not "why can't we change this" as much as "what is to be gained from changing this".

 

 

I guess my desired outcome is to have another flavor of combat for those HERO games when the players just don't want to use HP so much. Basically, I just want to have some fun in a different way. 

It is interesting that you equate Body / Stun with HP. Most players from HP style systems do not. Maybe you are trying to replicate a particular feel from another game (you mention several that you like) and there is nothing wrong with that. But you should understand that Body / Stun is a fairly ingrained concept in Hero so changing it is going to have wide reaching effects. For that to be worth the time and effort, generally people want more than "Let's tinker and see what happens".

 

- E

[bigdamnhero]

Nothing wrong with tinkering for the sake of tinkering. But the changes you're proposing are going to have significant "ripple effects" throughout the game because it changes a lot of fundamental assumptions about how damage works in Hero. From a gamist standpoint, the major impact is going to be to make attacks very all-or-nothing - characters ether shrug off minor attacks or are quickly incapacitated by one decent die roll. That doesn't give the GM a lot of leeway to challenge the players without taking them out of the game, so Use With Caution. In fact, the comparison with Mental Powers is apt: Mental Powers have often been criticized because they tend to be all-or-nothing attacks, which doesn't make for fun gaming.

 

So, if the goal is just to make combat feel grittier and less superhero-ey:

• Use more Killing Attacks and keep Resistant Defenses low
• Try using Wounding, Impairing/Disabling, Bleeding, etc.
• Restrict Healing powers.

If you want to go further, you can try adding thresholds within the existing BODY/STUN framework, with penalties when a character is at 50%, 25% or whatever, as has been suggested. That will make things feel much grittier without undercutting core game mechanics.

[whitekeys]

Not quite getting to the point where I feel I can afford some suggestions, because there have been a few things that haven't yet been addressed or asked. Although if I'm wrong about that, let me know.

 

Firstly, in whatever system you are envisioning or attempting to create, how are you going to deal with being knocked out or being killed? I ask because Hit Point systems and the HERO Damage system are pretty clear cut regarding death or unconsciousness. 

 

Secondly, in one of your earlier posts, you said you have read the rules on Disabling, bleeding wounds, etc., and something about them left you wanting more. Where exactly did they fall short in your opinion?

 

Third, in one of your earlier posts, you had a system with Minor, Severe, Critical and Taken Out wounds. I assume that you're still rolling attack Damage as regular? They're linked, so I'm just wondering if you're thinking of also changing the way attacks work.

[FeralFly]

Firstly, in whatever system you are envisioning or attempting to create, how are you going to deal with being knocked out or being killed? I ask because Hit Point systems and the HERO Damage system are pretty clear cut regarding death or unconsciousness. 

 

Secondly, in one of your earlier posts, you said you have read the rules on Disabling, bleeding wounds, etc., and something about them left you wanting more. Where exactly did they fall short in your opinion?

 

Third, in one of your earlier posts, you had a system with Minor, Severe, Critical and Taken Out wounds. I assume that you're still rolling attack Damage as regular? They're linked, so I'm just wondering if you're thinking of also changing the way attacks work.

 

I've been trying to somehow incorporate both killing and normal damage into the new system. I've been trying it out by rolling damage as normal, applying defenses, and then comparing the damage done to the respective BODY and STUN thresholds. 

 

So, taking any BODY will cause a Minor Injury (which can be "resisted" at the GMs discretion, as mentioned before). I'm trying to figure out out STUN damage will tie into this, too. One idea is to have damage up to 1/3 STUN cause a Temporary Minor Injury that will go away as soon as you can recover (it's just a little STUN, after all). Damage above 1/3 STUN causes a Temporary Serious Injury. The effects of this could either be the same as a killing Serious Injury or be worth "two" Temporary Minor Injuries (which could be recovered in the same fashion mentioned before, but with twice the effort). STUN injuries could count toward Durability or not - I'm not really sure yet. Also, if STUN damage is equal to or greater than CON, the character is stunned (as RAW).

 

As far as dying is concerned, while it is possible to slip into shock after a Serious Injury, not receive any medical attention, and then die, it will not be the norm. That's just not dramatic. When the penalty of your injuries equals or passes your Durability rating, you succumb to shock (so that's the 1000 paper cuts effect).

 

Whenever you take damage over your BODY rating, you suffer a Taken Out Injury. Make a Trauma CON Roll (maybe modified by your total injuries, or just -2 or -3, I'm not really sure yet). If you pass it, you take the equivalent of two Serious Injuries (penalty -2), but can still function. You still have to make your Shock Roll (at -2 or -3 or something). 

 

I think that pretty much sums up where I'm at. I feel like there's a way to integrate STUN into things a bit more smoothly, but who knows? Basically, STUN causes temporary damage as it does in HERO, but in a different way - STUN injuries are much faster to recover from.

 

The impairing and disabling rules are very good. Looking at them again, I think my biggest qualm with the thresholds they have (half and full BODY). I also didn't like the lose of characteristics - I'd prefer it to be a general penalty. So, thinking about them now, I could just rename some things and try and bring it closer in line to those. Instead of a Serious Injury, it could just be an Impairing Injury, and instead of a Taken Out Injury, it could just be a Disabling Injury. I'd have to check it out again, but this is a possible way to do things, too. The only issue would be the hit locations, which might bog things down with another roll (although another set of 3 dice, of a different color, could be thrown along with the to-hit roll).