The HERO system syndrome

[zslane]

Because nobody gains by sitting around mumbling about how terrible the company is.

 

I pretty much agree.

 

However, questions like "What is Hero's future?" or "What does the HS need to grow and thrive?" or "Why isn't there a product like X for the HS?" come up frequently, and the real answers to all such questions revolve around one simple truth that the askers don't yet understand or appreciate: that there is nobody involved in advancing the system's future in a financially meaningful way. A lot of other ancillary reasons are also offered, but most of them are either byproducts of the lack of resources, or things that have far less impact on matters than said lack of resources. If there's ever going to be any hope of changing things--perhaps in the form of an investor or new owner stepping up to the plate--then I think it is important to keep the core issue front and center at all times whenever discussions stray in this direction.

[massey]

To be successful, you need strong financials and a solid creative vision for the game.

 

When DOJ had its run with 5th edition, it had strong enough financial backing.  It was producing a lot of books and getting them on shelves.  But it really lacked a solid creative vision.  I mean, they spent money making things like this:

 

 

The quality of artwork also went downhill really fast, and it was clear that the creative team didn't value strong visuals for the game.  Look at the cover of the 5th edition rulebook and you can see that.  Zero people in the entire universe saw that cover and were inspired pick up the game because of it.  People bought it despite the cover, not because of it.

 

And that's the problem, really.  DOJ tried to do too many things, branch out into too many genres.  And they didn't have a strong artistic vision to guide them.

[zslane]

I think there is something very old school and traditional about that scatter-shot approach to genres and products. I mean, look at the evolution of the brand through its first four editions. You had Champions, Espionage/Danger International, Justice Inc., Robotwarriors, Fantasy Hero, Autoduel Champions, Ninja Hero, Horror Hero, Western Hero, Cyber Hero, Star Hero, etc. Hero Games never lacked for unsupported genre books of dubious long-term value. But I think if everyone involved was being brutally honest about it, of all the genres that were thrown at the wall, the only one that has ever consistently stuck with any significant marketplace traction is Champions.

[Christopher R Taylor]

DOJ tried to do too many things, branch out into too many genres.  And they didn't have a strong artistic vision to guide them.

 

 

No, I don't think the spread was the problem it was the latter, a lack of unifying artistic vision and clear visual pull.  As much as I like the rulebooks, the covers since 4th edition leave a lot to be desired.  Too generic, not exciting and attractive enough.  As awful as it is, a book really does sell by its cover.

[Tasha]

To be successful, you need strong financials and a solid creative vision for the game.

 

When DOJ had its run with 5th edition, it had strong enough financial backing.  It was producing a lot of books and getting them on shelves.  But it really lacked a solid creative vision.  I mean, they spent money making things like this:

 

 

The quality of artwork also went downhill really fast, and it was clear that the creative team didn't value strong visuals for the game.  Look at the cover of the 5th edition rulebook and you can see that.  Zero people in the entire universe saw that cover and were inspired pick up the game because of it.  People bought it despite the cover, not because of it.

 

And that's the problem, really.  DOJ tried to do too many things, branch out into too many genres.  And they didn't have a strong artistic vision to guide them.

That's not really fair to point to one product that had a lot of support from some people here on the board. That Darren and Jason were very excited to write as being a symptom of problems with the DOJ period. If you take a look at the entire output during the period minus that book you will see that vision. Steve posted his vision at the beginning with a PDF document talking about the ages of "magic" which talked about the various game world books and where they fit in a grand history from the Fantasy Hero Worlds to Champions though the Star Hero era. Not everyone liked that direction, but it did detail what Steve was going to write about. 

[Tasha]

I think there is something very old school and traditional about that scatter-shot approach to genres and products. I mean, look at the evolution of the brand through its first four editions. You had Champions, Espionage/Danger International, Justice Inc., Robotwarriors, Fantasy Hero, Autoduel Champions, Ninja Hero, Horror Hero, Western Hero, Cyber Hero, Star Hero, etc. Hero Games never lacked for unsupported genre books of dubious long-term value. But I think if everyone involved was being brutally honest about it, of all the genres that were thrown at the wall, the only one that has ever consistently stuck with any significant marketplace traction is Champions.

Champions and Fantasy Hero were some of the best selling things that Hero put out. There were a TON Of FH related supplements for both 1st Edition FH and the later 4e FH. The other big seller was Steve Long's Dark Champions and Aaron Allston's Ninja Hero. Which were generically useful for multiple genres beyond the one detailed in the books.

[bigdamnhero]

There were I believe 3 or 4 Lucha Libre games at Genghis Con last weekend, all of which were full tables. The book may not have sold big - and I don't think they really expected it to - but it's a fun damn game.

[massey]

That's not really fair to point to one product that had a lot of support from some people here on the board. That Darren and Jason were very excited to write as being a symptom of problems with the DOJ period. If you take a look at the entire output during the period minus that book you will see that vision. Steve posted his vision at the beginning with a PDF document talking about the ages of "magic" which talked about the various game world books and where they fit in a grand history from the Fantasy Hero Worlds to Champions though the Star Hero era. Not everyone liked that direction, but it did detail what Steve was going to write about.

It's a perfectly fair criticism. The "ages of magic" idea is not the type of vision that I'm talking about. We had book after book of random stuff that didn't tie together that well. Did we really need 3 different Fantasy Hero campaign settings? 2 different Star Hero campaign settings? No we didn't.

 

No offense to the other people on the board, but we are a weird group of people and our preferences are definitely not indicative of the general gaming population. Look at all the arguments that take place over in the thread about a "Champions Begins" supplement, where every other person drops in to say that if they can't build their special character in it, then it's not really Champions. And we are talking about a proposed beginner pamphlet of maybe 50 pages just to teach people the basics. Again, you and I and the other people here are not a representative sample of the potential customers out there.

 

And the DOJ guys should have known that.

[Chris Goodwin]

It's a perfectly fair criticism. The "ages of magic" idea is not the type of vision that I'm talking about. We had book after book of random stuff that didn't tie together that well. Did we really need 3 different Fantasy Hero campaign settings? 2 different Star Hero campaign settings? No we didn't.

 

No offense to the other people on the board, but we are a weird group of people and our preferences are definitely not indicative of the general gaming population. Look at all the arguments that take place over in the thread about a "Champions Begins" supplement, where every other person drops in to say that if they can't build their special character in it, then it's not really Champions. And we are talking about a proposed beginner pamphlet of maybe 50 pages just to teach people the basics. Again, you and I and the other people here are not a representative sample of the potential customers out there.

 

And the DOJ guys should have known that.

 

In fairness to the DOJ guys, they took over in 2001.  They were sort of breaking ground with what they were doing; they didn't exactly have a central database of online discussions among the fanbase to do research from, nor 15+ years of knowing what the fanbase would and wouldn't buy.  The Hero Universe was in development from around 1997-ish (from Steve Long and Steve Peterson), and it was still a pretty new and exciting idea in 2001.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

It's a perfectly fair criticism. The "ages of magic" idea is not the type of vision that I'm talking about. We had book after book of random stuff that didn't tie together that well. Did we really need 3 different Fantasy Hero campaign settings? 2 different Star Hero campaign settings? No we didn't.

 

Sure we did.  We need everything we can get in print.  There's a reason when you go to the toothpaste aisle in the grocery store, there are 11 different variations of Colgate.  Look at the most successful game system of our times, D&D 3.5, that had 80,000 different books out, including dozens of fantasy settings and more.  AD&D had several different settings as well.  Why?  Because people like variety, choices, and options.  Not everyone likes the same kind of setting, some like a barbaric desert setting, some a more typical medieval campaign, etc.  And shelf space is key: the more shelf space you can capture at a store, the better your sales.

[bigdamnhero]

I think DOJ clearly had a strong creative vision: core rules => genre books => setting books => rules supplements (Ultimates, etc) & NPC books => reinforce what sells. If anything I think they had a little too much central control, and were less willing to experiment with different styles & ideas.

 

Massey does have a point that those of us here are not representative of the hobby at large. I feel like one of DOJ's mistakes was to tailor everything too much at the existing fan base without really trying to attract new players. There's a difference between playing to your strengths/niche vs pigeonholing your way into irrelevance.

[Tasha]

Massey does have a point that those of us here are not representative of the hobby at large. I feel like one of DOJ's mistakes was to tailor everything too much at the existing fan base without really trying to attract new players. There's a difference between playing to your strengths/niche vs pigeonholing your way into irrelevance.

 

Now that is a Fair criticism. Hero System esp since 5e has existed to stimulate sales to the fanbase. It has done little to try to attract new players to the fold. Existing players have always been prioritized. Which has lead to pretty generic supplements, because the majority of Hero players are vehemently against specific campaigns and things that they can't tweak. Voice any idea of creating a product that includes all abilities written up and somewhat black boxed and the community loses its mind with revulsion. It also isn't helped by game designers who want to quantify every little thing in the system and make sure that people pay for every shred of power they get from things.

[Tasha]

Here's something that would be cool for hero. A comic illustrating play that shifts from PC to Player view. This one is for Savage Worlds.

http://www.uptofourplayers.com/comic/wild-heart-page-2/?utm_source=sbn_feed&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=savage_bloggers_network

[Christopher R Taylor]

That is a great idea, easy enough to do, too.

[massey]

Sure we did.  We need everything we can get in print.  There's a reason when you go to the toothpaste aisle in the grocery store, there are 11 different variations of Colgate.  Look at the most successful game system of our times, D&D 3.5, that had 80,000 different books out, including dozens of fantasy settings and more.  AD&D had several different settings as well.  Why?  Because people like variety, choices, and options.  Not everyone likes the same kind of setting, some like a barbaric desert setting, some a more typical medieval campaign, etc.  And shelf space is key: the more shelf space you can capture at a store, the better your sales.

 

Just putting random stuff on the shelves doesn't help.  Otherwise they wouldn't have had to sell the rights to the game universe to get the money to fund 6th edition.

 

Having a bunch of different setting books, and very little to support any of them, is the wrong direction.  You need to focus on a few areas that really sell.  Even AD&D spread themselves too thin, which is why they cancelled most of those product lines when they went to 3rd edition.  How many Dark Sun materials did they really sell?  Or Planescape?

 

[zslane]

Attempting to reach consensus on how to resuscitate the Hero System brand is both futile and unnecessary.

[Cantriped]

That is a great idea, easy enough to do, too.

There isn't a lot of money in web comics though. It takes about a year to get one off the ground, and even then it is little better than working a full-time minimum-wage job. Although to be fair my research on the subject is over ten years old now, and the web-comic industry might have improved since then with the existence of services like Patreon (which almost every Web-Comic uses now).

 

Ignoring that issue for a moment though. A web-comic that blatantly used Hero System mechanics (such as by using the "out of game" aside shown above), and/or provided character sheets of its cast written in Hero System would be a huge boon in terms of advertising. Popular web-comics tend to have audiences of tens of thousands of people. Depending upon how well written the story itself is, it could draw a lot of people who have an interest in gaming, but have never heard of Hero to spend $30 to $40 on one of the Complete books instead of whatever Paizo's latest $50 Pathfinder hardcover is at the time.

[Christopher R Taylor]

There isn't a lot of money in web comics though. It takes about a year to get one off the ground, and even then it is little better than working a full-time minimum-wage job.

 

 

Yeah I wouldn't do a web comic.  I'd do a comic as an ad, something to post on social media, email around, etc.

[Cantriped]

Doing a webcomic has long been one of my eventual goals, but I won't do one just to advertise Hero System. Although I have thought of doing one as a way of advertising a published Hero System campaign setting... First I would have to have a finished campaign setting I own the IP for and can tell compelling stories within.

[Tasha]

Just putting random stuff on the shelves doesn't help.  Otherwise they wouldn't have had to sell the rights to the game universe to get the money to fund 6th edition.

 

Having a bunch of different setting books, and very little to support any of them, is the wrong direction.  You need to focus on a few areas that really sell.  Even AD&D spread themselves too thin, which is why they cancelled most of those product lines when they went to 3rd edition.  How many Dark Sun materials did they really sell?  Or Planescape?

 

They didn't just put random stuff on the shelf. It was pretty clear that there was a direction and a roadmap. A roadmap that was publically available. Also, how can you call over 30 books supporting the Champions Universe not supporting their best selling product. For Fantasy Hero there is like 8 books. That doesn't count generic books like the Equipment guide, the Players book, Ultimate Skill, Ultimate base, Ultimate Vehicle. Star Hero has 5 books all published by Hero Games. Now there's not a single adventure in the lot. Because Adventures are expensive to make and don't sell in anywhere near the same numbers as Supplement books do. Perhaps that was a mistake, but remember that their target audience was us their established base. We created a revenue stream that lasted about a decade or so IIRC. Enough revenue to keep people on full time, and not on a piecework basis.

 

IMHO you should abandon your no vision Hypothesis, the overwhelming evidence doesn't support it at all.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I just think that having almost every thread on here turn into "why Hero sucks" or "why the company let me down and gave me the sadz" doesn't help.  Further, I think that someone coming to the forum new might be a bit dismayed with having the topic come up over and over, which is harmful to the hobby and our personal favorite system.  Maybe we could give the topic a rest??

[Joe Walsh]

I just think that having almost every thread on here turn into "why Hero sucks" or "why the company let me down and gave me the sadz" doesn't help.  Further, I think that someone coming to the forum new might be a bit dismayed with having the topic come up over and over, which is harmful to the hobby and our personal favorite system.  Maybe we could give the topic a rest??

 

I agree.

 

But first, we should talk about how Hero ruined my life and everything I hold dear.

[steriaca]

I agree.

 

But first, we should talk about how Hero ruined my life and everything I hold dear.

You mean that Hero Games killed your father and sensei, kidnapped your sister and girlfriend, got you fired from your job and evicted from your home, and to top things off, kicked your dog for no reason at all? Pitty.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah but it made for a really great revenge flick

[aylwin13]

[Milton voice]

 

HERO took my stapler.

 

[/Milton voice]