Haymaker question...

[Chris Goodwin]

I brought it up only to underscore that perception of the target mind ... rather than position of the target mind... is what dictates whether a mental power can hit a target -- for ALL mental powers.  I believe it's important because the 4e artifact of movement of the target of a haymaker resulting in an auto-miss ... makes no sense with haymakering a mental power ... unless LOS is lost (i.e. unless the ability to perceive the target mind is lost.)

 

Only if you're already targeting them through Mind Scan, Mind Link, etc. If not, then you're targeting them in "meat space" and it's the meat that governs it.

 

Put another way:

Without GM fiat involved, how does plain Jane movement of the target of a mental blast haymaker by 1+ meters ... in an open field with no cover ... cause the mental blast haymaker to miss?  LOS, Mind Link, or a Mind Scan lock aren't lost from it, so the mind is still perceivable ... and thus should still be hittable.  But per haymaker RAW, the target moved 1m, so a miss occurs ... for a power where range mods and distances are irrelevant so long as the target mind can be perceived.

 

That makes sense how, exactly?  

 

I already said earlier: if you're using Haymaker with a Mental Power, you're so focused on the attack that you've got tunnel vision. If he moves one meter, he's literally out of your line of sight.  Unless you've got some other sense by which you're targeting him, you're targeting him with Normal Sight (and even if you are, if you're not targeting through Mind Link, Mind Scan, or Telepathy, you're SOL if he moves).  Same as if you're using Haymaker with a Blast, and the target moves by one meter.  Doesn't matter if you can still see him; doesn't matter if you could have targeted him in the new location from where you are.  He moves before the attack hits, then you miss.  It doesn't matter if you could be targeting him through Mind Link, Mind Scan, etc., unless you are targeting him that way.  

 

If and only if you're targeting him through Mind Link, Mind Scan, or Telepathy, then his position doesn't matter -- he literally can't move from where you're targeting him.  (N.B.  Mind Scan technically lets you hit someone with non-Mental Powers if you can't see them, but if you're Haymakering a Blast through that, and he moves?  Still a miss.)

 

I don't disagree with you that Haymaker was intended for use with punches, and generalizing it to other Powers, including Mental Powers, can cause problems, but I don't agree with you that this is one of the problems.  

[Surrealone]

 Only if you're already targeting them through Mind Scan, Mind Link, etc. If not, then you're targeting them in "meat space" and it's the meat that governs it.

 

...

 

If and only if you're targeting him through Mind Link, Mind Scan, or Telepathy, then his position doesn't matter -- he literally can't move from where you're targeting him.  (N.B.  Mind Scan technically lets you hit someone with non-Mental Powers if you can't see them, but if you're Haymakering a Blast through that, and he moves?  Still a miss.)

 

Your quoted words, here, help illustrate the point nicely -- which is also why I brought Mind Scan and Mind Link into the discussion.  Check this out (derived from an image provided by your quoted words ... which are references back to my text on Mind Scan, Mind Link, etc ... and which helps underscore why they were worth bringing up.)

 

​Scenario:

All GM fiat (like stating I'm focusing on something I'm actually not focusing on) aside, I have a Mind Link with the target.  As a result, no attack roll with my Mental Blast is required; it automatically hits per RAW on 6e1 pg 258.  I elect to haymaker my Mental Blast  ... and, on the segment it's supposed to land, my target happens to move 2m to the right; so it automatically misses per RAW on 6e2 pg 69.

 

How can I both automatically hit AND automatically miss???  And how would the above miss, per RAW, make any sense??? This kind of absurdity points squarely at a problem in the rules ... a problem I now argue rests entirely with haymaker's auto-miss artifact from 4e ... and a failure to improve the mechanic at the time haymaker was opened up to more than HTH attacks in 5e and later ... such that the mechanic works, behaves, and scales properly with ranged and mental attacks in addition to HTH attacks.

 

By the way:

​Under this microscope, my suggestion of a stiff OCV penalty instead of auto-miss ... fails the appropriate litmus test ... because such a penalty is irrelevant in an auto-hit scenario.  Some other penalty that properly accounts for powers that may have auto-hit scenarios would need to be used, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment on ideas.

 

​Surreal

 

P.S. If the above scenario doesn't strongly indicate to naysayers that there's a problem with the haymaker RAW; I don't know what will.  I've used mental powers to illustrate the concern mostly because they provided quick/easy ways to do so ... or so I thought.  However, I failed to account for the fact that some people would rather argue about how mental powers work than talk about the reason this thread was raised ... presumably in an effort to suggest there is no problem. I'm done trying to defend it because now I don't have to; it's darn tough to pretend there isn't a problem when rules directly conflict with one another, as above.

[Lucius]

 

A hypothetical Haymaker through a Mind Link isn't going to fail because the target moves. It will fail because the target will see it coming and break the Mind Link before it happens.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

When it comes to minds, the palindromedary is in a class by itself.

[Hugh Neilson]

Please invest your next xp in basic literacy.

 

Only AFTER you hit it ... and only IF you get an EGO+20 effect roll.  Funny how you can hit a mind before you know its location, its rough distance from you, or even the generation direction it's in relative to you, isn't it?  So if you're hanging your hat on the precise location, you're hanging it on something that just let your hat hit the floor, sir.

If the MCV Attack Roll succeeds, the character knows the general location and presence of the target.

Just making the Mind Scan attack roll narrows your knowledge of where the mind in question is from "somewhere in the area I scanned" (otherwise you can't find it) to "general location".

 

First, you pick an area - a physical space - to scan for the target mind. Then, you sift through all the minds in that area trying to locate the specific one you are looking for. If that mind is in that physical, geographic area, and you succeed with your roll, you locate that mind, and now have a sense of its general physical location. If you also get +20, you have a precise physical location.

 

None of that can actually function without the mind occupying a point in physical space.

 

You appear to be ignoring the fact that without knowing the precise location (EGO+20 on Mind Scan effect roll), you can still communicate with the target mind via Telepathy (EGO+0 effect roll) ... or attack it with other Mental Powers (EGO +10 effect roll.)  Isn't it interesting that you can use telepathy on a mind whose absolute/precise location you don't know ... as long as you can perceive it? (That perception ... meaning successful scan ... is, after all, what your successful 'hit' represented...) Downright informative is what I call that...

Mind Scan is a power which permits you to locate a mind without a direct line of sight to the owner of that mind. That is all it does, so of course it overrides the usual rule that you must be able to see the precise physical location of the mind in question. It is an alternative targeting sense for mental powers. But using it still requires you to guess the physical location of the mind in question - which, in and of itself, indicates that minds occupy a point in space.

 

That geographical area of the scan, of course, is the area in which you happen to be trying to find/perceive the mind ... by scanning for it ... using an aptly named power 'Mind Scan'.  So yes, we're agreed, here. Note that scanning a specific area carries no implication that you know the mind is within it.  In fact, it is only after you 'hit' the mind that you learn anything useful about its location.

So, how can I search an area for a mind, if the mind does not occupy a physical location within that area? If the mind occupies no physical location, my ability to scan for it cannot rationally be limited by my choice of possible physical locations to scan.

 

Frankly, it feels like you are either not reading what is being communicated, or are deliberately being obtuse. Your own post repeatedly refers to the geographic area in which the mind is situated while continuing to assert that the mind does not occupy a geographic location. It's...well...surreal.

[Grailknight]

Okay Surrealone, answer these scenarios for me:

 

Attacker A is about to Haymaker a punch when Target T is moved back 9" down a well-lit tunnel. What happens?

 

Same scenario, but A is using Haymaker with a ranged attack?

 

And final scenario, has A using Haymaker with a mental power?

 

What are the modifiers that apply?

[TheDarkness]

I can agree that the haymaker rules are problematic, I kind of think that of all the absolute effects and how they interact with the rules at large.

[Doc Democracy]

Providing examples to highlight an issue with the rules has good and bad sides. Good, it provides an opportunity to see how the rule might play out in real gaming, Bad, it opens the possibility of an argument about the example used rather than the rule under the spotlight. :-)

I can understand why you looked to mental powers to highlight your issue with haymaker, it is ranged attack issues on steroids. However, mental powers have their own peccadilloes and that has confused things.

I think the rules imply minds have a physical geographic location. That is almost irrelevant to the question at hand.

When you have two rules with absolutes it is not necessarily a conflict but where precedence might lie. Personally, from a gamist perspective, I think it is fair that, if I seek to exploit an automatic hit, by throwing additional power/damage down it, that the automatic fail rules for doing so should take precedence over the automatic hit. I chose to put the hit at risk, I should accept the consequences of that.

Fundamentally, you are (in my mind) making the classic HERO mistake of presuming a particular SFX of a core rule/manoeuvre etc. The haymaker manoeuvre provides a character with the opportunity to squeeze free damage/effect in combat by accepting some risks. One risk is that someone takes advantage of your focus to attack you more easily, one is that if the target moves, it spoils your focus and you miss, the final risk is that the attack takes enough game time that others will notice and can exploit those risks relatively easily. You are applying the visual of the original use, a big brawler winding up a huge punch. I think the description is reasonable and, if the action being attempted does not meet the criteria then application of the manoeuvre is not appropriate.

Now. You want others to provide a description of haymakering a mental blast that you will accept meets the criteria. You have not (that I have noticed) commented on the examples thrown out and so I presume you did not think they worked for you. That is fine, in your game you might rule that haymakers are not an appropriate manoeuvre for mental powers.

You might want to create a better generic manoeuvre that works for all attacks, with a similar kind of balancing pros and cons. That is fine too.

What might be useful is to either stick to SFX issues (can you describe how this might look in gameplay) or stick to actual game mechanic issues (is the rule fair and reasonable) because conflating them does not seem to be serving your purpose.

Doc

[Mister E]

WOTD: "graminidogenic"

[Mister E]

I Multiform myself into a Computer.

[Doc Democracy]

WOTD: "graminidogenic"

 

Well, I would be happy to use it if I had a clue what it means!!  :-)

 

EDIT: explanation and comment crossed.  Not a word I have ever seen....not even in the odd SF and comics that I have been known to peruse!!!

[Mister E]

Well, I would be happy to use it if I had a clue what it means!! :-)

 

EDIT: explanation and comment crossed. Not a word I have ever seen....not even in the odd SF and comics that I have been known to peruse!!!

I don't have a clue either. =)

[Doc Democracy]

I don't have a clue either. =)

 

C'mon Lucius!!  Is this one of your words or the Palindromedary's??  Do either of you know what it means??

 

Doc

[Lucius]

I Multiform myself into a Computer.

I have a higher plane to catch.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary climbs to a plateau where a number of employers have set up recruiting stations. Thus ascending to a hire plain.

[TheDarkness]

Why do I feel like I've been mentally haymakered?

[Ninja-Bear]

More I think about this about this, I think I got a better explaination. Ok lets compare mental energy to light. More specific mental blast is like a laser pointer, especially a haymakered one. Now the problem seems to be with the rule that movement spoils the shot and say well I still have LOS. Now consider Sight in game terms is an AOE 180° I believe. A Laser pointer is not (unless of course you pay the points.) What happens if you have a laser pointer on an object and it moves? You move the pointer to adjust the new position. Samething here.

[steriaca]

More I think about this about this, I think I got a better explaination. Ok lets compare mental energy to light. More specific mental blast is like a laser pointer, especially a haymakered one. Now the problem seems to be with the rule that movement spoils the shot and say well I still have LOS. Now consider Sight in game terms is an AOE 180° I believe. A Laser pointer is not (unless of course you pay the points.) What happens if you have a laser pointer on an object and it moves? You move the pointer to adjust the new position. Samething here.

You have it, Ninja Bear. But the original poster clames that he doesn't need to move the pointer from the target at all.

[Deadman]

I honestly think that Surrealone has a valid point.  Unfortunately we could argue about it for hours (I think we have already) and not get anywhere.  The reason is that frankly the maneuver was shoehorned into a place it had no business being.  I think that many of us are trying to justify it based on what the rule says and therefore come up with a way to have it make sense.  The fact is that it won't actually make sense because it was designed for a HTH attack.  If they had introduced another maneuver specifically for Ranged and Mental powers we wouldn't be having this discussion.  The question becomes how do we limit such a maneuver in a way that it balances the massive increase in Damage Classes? 

 

I am going to try the series of maneuvers that I came up with in my game and I will let everyone know how it goes.  My initial thought is that it does address the main problem but I am sure there are those that would argue that it punishes Mentalists unnecessarily.  If you think this then maybe you should control my mind and make me think differently.  I warn you, you will probably need EGO+30 though.

 

Deadman

[Ninja-Bear]

You have it, Ninja Bear. But the original poster clames that he doesn't need to move the pointer from the target at all.

3rd shift brain thinking. What advantage would.allow the the lock on to be kept?

[steriaca]

3rd shift brain thinking. What advantage would.allow the the lock on to be kept?

Indirect?

[Ninja-Bear]

Indirect?

Thats what I was thinking and.maybe constant on the power itself?

[Lucius]

WOTD: "graminidogenic"

 

 

Well, I would be happy to use it if I had a clue what it means!!  :-)

 

EDIT: explanation and comment crossed.  Not a word I have ever seen....not even in the odd SF and comics that I have been known to peruse!!!

From the context it would seem to reference a state of consciousness available to the psionically active that enhances psychic ability by means of a sort of mesmeric focus on the intended subject of the psychic exertion.

 

As for the word's derivation, I'm really hoping someone else will figure it out although I may be underestimating the difficulty.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary and I like to be obscure and mysterious sometimes I suppose.

[Doc Democracy]

3rd shift brain thinking. What advantage would.allow the the lock on to be kept?

You can't advantage manoeuvres, can you?

 

It is easy to build a power that is a better haymaker than the manoeuvre. That power would not need the balance of risks and rewards the manoeuvre has.

[Doc Democracy]

As for the word's derivation, I'm really hoping someone else will figure it out although I may be underestimating the difficulty.Lucius AlexanderThe palindromedary and I like to be obscure and mysterious sometimes I suppose.

Is this weed related?

[Grailknight]

You can't advantage manoeuvres, can you?

 

It is easy to build a power that is a better haymaker than the manoeuvre. That power would not need the balance of risks and rewards the manoeuvre has.

 

That would cost Points. He wants an improved version of the free maneuver. 

[Doc Democracy]

That would cost Points. He wants an improved version of the free maneuver.

And why is that not like me asking for an improved version of strike that gives me armour piercing?