How to build...

[unclevlad]

Weird, hopefully fun idea.  Efficient?  Heck no.  

 

A 2-for-1 richoceting blast.  To start:  Blast, Double KB, and Indirect.  Being able to shift the angle of attack is needed because having the bad guys line up for the attack is gonna be coincidental and rare.  Seems like the best start, but any other ideas are welcome.  My big question is, what skill and/or power, in a Combined Power approach, would fit, to get the poor sucker you're knocking around, to pile into the other poor sucker?  KS:  Geometry, with -5 penalty, and Absolute Direction Sense perhaps?  

[CptPatriot]

You could have PS: Billiards to represent being a Pool Shark and bounce people around that way.

[Greywind]

Apply one skill level to allow for the blast to be bounced, assuming the blast has no modifiers applied that make such impossible.

[Sveta]

If this would be core to a character's concept, I'd recommend trying to work out something akin to a Change Environments in. People in the area not only hit objects for the damage, but then bounce off a distance proportionate to what would be left. Shoot, if you get someone lenient, try and see if in the area Knockback goes further (for the purposes of distance and rebound. Not hitting-things damage.)

 

I could also see a +1/4 ad hoc'ed power advantage to shift the knockback direction on the blast. Probably would want to keep it within 30-60 degrees of the impact point. But given that and Indirect, could knock them around pretty good.

[unclevlad]

Bouncing isn't really right.  Bouncing uses a surface to redirect the blast.  That's not what I'm suggesting.  If knockback happens, the target's gonna be moving.  The point here is to capture being able to direct that movement in a useful manner.  Indirect and Double Knockback do a good job, I think, of saying it's *possible*...now it's not a matter of power but a matter of skill, to pull it off.  It is rather similar, I'll grant, to having the one CSL for a single-redirect Bounce, but it's also more flexible in that it would nominally work in any environment, as long as there's 2 opponents...or, just something sturdy to blast the target into.  Rather than knocking him 20m away and now just having to chase him...different angle, smash him into a heavy wall or somesuch.  Bounce requires a surface capable of reflecting the attack.

 

PS:  Billiards is not bad;  it might work better to capture the sense of translating and rotating the scene in your head to get things to line up.

 

 

[Funk Thompson]

PS: Billiards would be the excuse for this moreso than allowing it, though.

 

I think you are still just talking CSL's that give a bonus to your bounced attacks?

[patransom]

How about: Telekinesis, Only to Grab and Throw One Character into Another, Requires a PS: Billiards Roll

[unclevlad]

patransom, if doing that, then why the double knockback? The momentum doesn't come from any TK.  TK to just guide...possibly, but that still feels wrong.  Focus on hitting the target, then immediately refocus to aim at the next target?  Ehhh......

 

Funk:  bounce redirects the blast itself.  To me, that's fine if the intent is to have the blast hit target 1, then continue to target 2...with conditions.  To use the billiards analogy, I'd say that requires the initial attack to do knockback.  If it doesn't, the collision (attack on target) becomes inelastic and the angle of reflection off the target is IMO poorly defined.  

[massey]

The cheapest way to do it is to buy +xD6, only to spread.  You spread your attack and hit two people at once, the special effect being that one guy slammed into the other.  Then you just don't worry about specific distance measurements or positioning on a battle map.  It just works.  "Yeah, I blast this guy and he flies into that guy."

[Sveta]

Let me see if I am understanding this correctly:
You want a blast with good knockback to hit someone. They go tumbling.
You then want the blast to reflect off of them, and hit someone else. They probably also go tumbling.

The other way I'm seeing what you are saying, is...
You want a blast with good knockback to hit someone. They go tumbling.
You then want the person to be knocked back, and hit someone else. They probably also go tumbling.

 

I think you are meaning the first, so I'll write an example up from that perspective.

 

First, figure how to get it to go from one person to the next. In this sort of thing, I'd say a Line works best (Let say +1/2 for a decent range). This would give you the ability to hit multiple people after the first, via a "rebound". Granted, right now it is a straight line. Also noteworthy, this has it start from you, which may hamper your range. Regardless, to get "true" multibounce powers, You would probably want Indirect. If you are fine with it starting from you, then it would just be +1/2, to have a non-direct Path to Target, and change with every use. This way you could ping-pong your line out against your foes as you wish. Granted, the angles here could be anything you wish, so any wanted limitations would apply.

Crunch wise, I'd probably throw together something like this:
Bouncy Blast: 5d6 (30), Line 32m (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2) Indirect (Alterable Path each time +1/2) Active 75 Skill Based Roll (Billiards -1/2) Major Side Effect (-1/2) Real 37

 

Little bit pricey in End to use, and with problems if it fails, but that's how I'd throw it together.

[unclevlad]

Sveta:  I mean the second.

[Sveta]

Oh bother. That's a lot more complicated. Alright... 

You're still looking at the same basic core. Some amount of blast, Double Knockback, and Indirect. In this situation, you're still at the +1/2 to change the path each time. And believe it or not, I believe that is where I'd call it quits for it. Then it's simply building what happens when it hits someone, what happens to them. 

So first off...
Break: 5d6 blast (30), Double Knockback (+1/2), Indirect (Any Path +1/2) Active: 60 Activation Roll (Billiards -1/2), Major Side Effect (-1/2) Real: 30

 

Now, you have what happens when someone is hit by another person because of break. Instead of making Break horribly complicated, let's make this a linked thing. The big issue here is that, if I am to hazard a guess, you want the harm and movement to be modified off of the damage that the knockback would do. This makes it all sorts of wonky, but let's see what we can do. 

 

First off, you are wanting to redirect the knockback of the other person I presume. So another Indirect +1/2 to whatever is designed. Or heck. If your GM is nice, try and buy a raw advantage for Knockback XX meters with Indirect +1/2, Only when caused by Break -1/4. If that works for you, then you're good. If you want to add force to the sequential hits, then you need an actual Linked Power. Something simple like below.

 

Bouncing: 2d6 Blast (10), Double Knockback (+1/2), Indirect (Different Source Point and Any Path +1) Active: 25 Activation roll (Billiards -1/2) Real: 17

 

Seems good, yeah? No. This would take your attack to use, and is considerably worse. So make it Linked you say! Works, yeah? No. Linked attacks have to work against the same target. So instead... We have to make this a Trigger Power.

 

So let's define this Trigger. When someone is knocked back into someone else via Break or Bouncing. +1/4 there. Then you need it to activate instantly when this goes. Action that takes no time +1/4. Then it's a question of how many times you want it to rebound per hit. If only once? Then this works. Will take a half phase to "reload" the bounce, but it works. If you want it to be able to hit more than once on a single Break? It needs to automatically rearm. Another +1/2.

 

So that boost Bouncing up to...

 

Bouncing: 2d6 Blast (10), Double Knockback (+1/2), Indirect (Different Source Point and Any Path +1) Trigger Power (Complicated +1) Active: 35 Activation roll (Billiards -1/2) Real: 23

 

Big note here! This still uses Endurance to activate! If you want to cut that down, you'd need...

 

Bouncing: 2d6 Blast (10), Double Knockback (+1/2), Indirect (Different Source Point and Any Path +1) Trigger Power (Complicated +1) No END (+1/2) Active: 40 Activation roll (Billiards -1/2) Real: 27

 

Summary:

If you want to be able to modify the knockback of the person that Break hits to redirect them, try and just go for a raw Advantage on Knockback for Break and being knocked back by the knockback for Break. If you want to do more harm than just the Knockback, and keep the chain going, you need to add in a complicated Bouncing Power with Triggers.

[dmjalund]

I wonder if you could use Sticky advantage on Telekinesis?

[massey]

Still easiest to just build the power so that you shoot two people.  Special effect is energy blast/flying body.

[unclevlad]

Sveta, I think you're overcomplicating. Why is any second blast needed?  KB itself defines a movement rate.  KB has a damage factor...1d6 normal for every 1" of KB.  Or, if you prefer, call the inches of KB a velocity, and the sucker hit by the blast is doing a Move Through with velocity == KB, while using 0 STR, on the secondary target.  No additional energy from the attacker is involved, so why is there a second Blast?

 

massey:  the conditions on the secondary attack are very complex, and there's no fixed damage per se.

 

This is really a skill-based power stunt.  So I'm thinking...yeah, ok, a CSL has to be used.  It's not bouncing the power per se but it's similar enough, so in order to have a chance to hit the *second* target, treat that attack like the bounce.  THEN, it needs a skill roll to aim.  Anything representing that kind of sense of direction (and absolute direction sense might help).  The roll has a range mod based on the entire distance...you to target A, then target A to target B.  Last, perhaps an ad hoc -1 or -2 penalty on the roll because target A is hardly a precision missile weapon.

 

THEN...if target A's body hits target B, the damage is as if A did a Move Through on B, as noted above.  With full effects on both A and B...which probably means nothing serious, since A's velocity-based damage is not going to be high.  Realistically, the hope wouldn't be to do a lot more damage...just to knock B down too.

 

[Ninja-Bear]

17 hours ago, massey said:

Still easiest to just build the power so that you shoot two people.  Special effect is energy blast/flying body.

Where were you when I was trying to build my 7-10 split power for my Bowler villain? ?

[Ninja-Bear]

Ok using Massey’s kids method, here is my thoughts. Buy the Blast regularly with DKB then buy Indirect as a naked Advatage and put a RSR on it. If you make your skill roll, then you place your Blast in the proper place to cause the KB of the affected target a chance to hit another. Also perhaps buy CSLs only to hit second target.

[unclevlad]

First, I loathe limiting an advantage.  It might be right on *rare* occasions but it's something that should almost never be used, IMO.

 

Second, RSR on the indirect is ill-timed in a granular breakdown.  That's saying I need to make my geometry roll, or the attack follows the usual path.  Indirect has value against a single foe, or when I only care about hitting the primary target and the ricochet aspect isn't anything I care about.  

 

The granular breakdown that makes sense to me:

 

1.  Pick primary and secondary targets.

2.  Mentally attempt to determine the angle of approach when the attack arrives at the primary target, so there's a chance the KB slams primary into secondary, and a simple, short path to do that. The implicit skill roll is here, but it's not a part of whether the power activates or hits.

3.  Execute attack, see if hits.  There's no reason to say the indirect doesn't happen;  the attack roll covers getting the path of my attack to intersect my target.

4.  Now it's determine where the KB actually goes, assuming there is any.  In the mechanical process of making the attack, the skill roll should get rolled here;  there's no point in rolling if the attack misses or if it does no KB.  

 

Hmm.  A nasty part here is, if the attack hits and does good KB, but I mess up the KB angle...where does he go?  Something to ponder......

[Sveta]

Rather belatedly, the second blast isn't needed. I was simply uncertain whether you were wanting to do only the knockback damage of the first character flying back, or more. 

 

So, If I am understanding this right, what you want is to:

1. Define Targets
2. Determine angle needed to cause  Primary to harm Secondary
3. Attack to cause harm to Primary.
4. Roll the check on how well you met the angles you figured to harm Secondary.

At this point, I am confused on what you are asking.

 

If I am understanding you right, you want to designate, determine, attack, and then roll to see if they fly off and hit the secondary. Determining target is part of the Attack normally. Indirect allows you to grasp general angle of approach for your attack, which translates to allowing you to direct the blow, and knockback where you wish. The weird point is that you want the Indirect to go, but the post-attack effect of Indirect to be based on the skill roll.

 

This is weird because it is placing a limitation on something that could otherwise be presumed to happen as normal. Except that something isn't the attack, it's the knockback. The results of the attack. As far as I know however, you can't place raw limitations on abstract non-player base effects, like knockback or falling speed. So, the exact specifications of how it mechanically would work would likely be something determined on a GM to GM basis, if you were to directly to modify that knockback.

 

Now, presuming that your GM allows, I'd try to get an ad hoc... Trait? Power? Adder? Honestly, this is bullet-hitting-sword-edge sort of edge case. Simply listed as targets that you inflict harm upon you may, with a skill roll, direct their knockback. Whether you'd include it as a part of the Character as a whole (such to the point all attacks would do this) or as a modifier/adder to attacks, that would be between you two.

 

But, presuming they don't let you do that, You have a few options. Placing the ideal limitations Requires a Skill roll on the attack, as you said, doesn't make sense because the attack goes off regardless. If you are adverse to applying a limitation to the Advantage Indirect (as what this is trying to do is a limitation of Indirect's bonus), then trying to apply a -0 Requires a Skill Roll with the fact that it only causes changes after the attack's result is determined... That's the closest I can imagine.

 

In Short

Modifying how knockback is directed is under the Dramatic/Common Sense of Indirect's implications. Requiring a skill roll for that would either be modifying Indirect, or be an inherent part of the power. 

If you are asking about something else, I've not the foggiest.

[Deadman]

I didn't read all of the replies so if my idea mirrors anyone else it is unintentional.  Why not use AoE: Line?  You could then make it Non-Selective which would show that you have to make an actual attack roll on each person that it hits.  With Indirect this would mean that you could start the line anywhere and have it go in any direction.  You could also incorporate Explosion to show that the first character loses velocity over the course of his travel.  A Limited Power Limitation could state that if the first character takes no Knockback (or not enough to reach the next in the line) that there is no damage.

 

My $.02,

[Ninja-Bear]

5 hours ago, unclevlad said:

First, I loathe limiting an advantage.  It might be right on *rare* occasions but it's something that should almost never be used, IMO.

 

Second, RSR on the indirect is ill-timed in a granular breakdown.  That's saying I need to make my geometry roll, or the attack follows the usual path.  Indirect has value against a single foe, or when I only care about hitting the primary target and the ricochet aspect isn't anything I care about.  

 

The granular breakdown that makes sense to me:

 

1.  Pick primary and secondary targets.

2.  Mentally attempt to determine the angle of approach when the attack arrives at the primary target, so there's a chance the KB slams primary into secondary, and a simple, short path to do that. The implicit skill roll is here, but it's not a part of whether the power activates or hits.

3.  Execute attack, see if hits.  There's no reason to say the indirect doesn't happen;  the attack roll covers getting the path of my attack to intersect my target.

4.  Now it's determine where the KB actually goes, assuming there is any.  In the mechanical process of making the attack, the skill roll should get rolled here;  there's no point in rolling if the attack misses or if it does no KB.  

 

Hmm.  A nasty part here is, if the attack hits and does good KB, but I mess up the KB angle...where does he go?  Something to ponder......

I got you up to point 4. So a little clarification please. Are you saying about hitting the angles a separate skill roll? Or is if make your attack roll against the second target, you made the correct angles? In which case I would suggest buying extra levels vs KB attack.

[unclevlad]

Yeah, ok, not real well said was it.

 

4.  Assume attack hits, and does KB.  Now make the skill roll, with a penalty based on total range and possibly more, to see if you the angle of attack you want.  IF YOU DO, then the primary target travels in the direction you want...here, that's at the second target.  If not, then the angle's a bit off and you need some mechanism to determine the actual angle.  

 

If your angle's wrong, the primary target can't hit the secondary target.  And at this point, you have no control or influence, so another roll seems uncalled-for.  The primary target is most likely 2m, so it's a hex-sized attack.  Ergo, given the correct angle to the secondary target, AND of course assuming there is *enough* KB to reach the secondary...then the primary target hits the hex of the secondary target, and therefore the secondary target.  The secondary target *can* dive for cover but can't dodge.

 

 

[dsatow]

We just did this as a maneuver.  If you want to hit someone into another, IIRC you used how much you hit the person by as your OCV to hit the second target (suffering range penalties).  Whether you have enough velocity from knockback or not is a different concern.  When the second target is hit, both take damage as if they did a move through using the knockback as velocity.  Needless to say, it didn't happen very often.  Bouncing off a wall using knockback wasn't allowed unless circumstances dictated it (i.e. a person hitting a brick wall isn't going to bounce).