Can you create temporary weapons?

[massey]

And those weapons have strength minimums.  In a heroic game, Bob with a 13 Str picks up a greataxe.  Let's say it's a 2D6 HKA and has a Str minimum of 10.  Bob can't do any extra damage with it, he's just getting the 2D6 from the weapon.  Now Bob picks up my summoned greataxe.  It's a D6+1 HKA with no Str minimum.  Bob can now add his Str to it and when he swings, he does... 2D6 HKA.  It's functionally the same and it saves our wizard friend some points.

[Grailknight]

It's the difference between building with Heroic or Superheroic  campaign assumptions. Heroic is more complicated (as concerns weapons) because more conditions are placed on the powers/builds to emulate realism.

[Christopher]

20 hours ago, massey said:

And those weapons have strength minimums.  In a heroic game, Bob with a 13 Str picks up a greataxe.  Let's say it's a 2D6 HKA and has a Str minimum of 10.  Bob can't do any extra damage with it, he's just getting the 2D6 from the weapon.  Now Bob picks up my summoned greataxe.  It's a D6+1 HKA with no Str minimum.  Bob can now add his Str to it and when he swings, he does... 2D6 HKA.  It's functionally the same and it saves our wizard friend some points. 

Wich does not mater because paying points for Magic is still a huge expense for every Heroic Character and something way less then even 20 Base Points + UBO is needed.

 

Also, let me repeat:
"Of course the GM can allow you to break/bend the rules, by allowing you to use object creation or summon. Just the 1 minute time limit would be enough to avoid most of the Abuse potential inherent in weapon/object creation. Combing that with "Weapons are not that hard are to come by" would be okay-ish balance wise I think."

So I am not even certain what you disagree on.

[Hugh Neilson]

Just spitballing here, but as Christopher notes, weapons are pretty easy to come by in Heroic games.  They are typically purchased with money, not CP.  So let's reason from effect...

 

This character has unlimited wealth to arm his teammates, at least for temporary periods.  How much Wealth would it require to have plenty of weapons to hand out to your buddies?  His does not require finding a merchant, but does require all of the spellcasting limitations, and the weapons don't stick around long enough to be sold to make him wealthy for other purposes.  Make this a Magical Perk with a cost similar to the Wealth required to arm a fairly large group (say 20 or 30 people - they fade away in a minute) and we should have a cost commensurate with the benefits, reasoning from effect.

[Doc Democracy]

31 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Just spitballing here, but as Christopher notes, weapons are pretty easy to come by in Heroic games.  They are typically purchased with money, not CP.  So let's reason from effect...

 

This character has unlimited wealth to arm his teammates, at least for temporary periods.  How much Wealth would it require to have plenty of weapons to hand out to your buddies?  His does not require finding a merchant, but does require all of the spellcasting limitations, and the weapons don't stick around long enough to be sold to make him wealthy for other purposes.  Make this a Magical Perk with a cost similar to the Wealth required to arm a fairly large group (say 20 or 30 people - they fade away in a minute) and we should have a cost commensurate with the benefits, reasoning from effect.

 

The big difference here is that the GM has the ability to rein in any use of wealth by quoting the availability of materials, weaponsmiths or just permission to make such things and equip them to malcontents.  ?  A magical ability has no such limitations and should therefore be more costly.

 

Doc

[Christopher]

5 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Just spitballing here, but as Christopher notes, weapons are pretty easy to come by in Heroic games. 

Not my idea. I think Lucius came up with it.

But I found it a very good point. Weapons are certainly a lot less uncommon.

 

4 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

The big difference here is that the GM has the ability to rein in any use of wealth by quoting the availability of materials, weaponsmiths or just permission to make such things and equip them to malcontents.  ?  A magical ability has no such limitations and should therefore be more costly.

 

Doc

Well the Spell that is being duplicated had a duration of 1 minute. That duration alone kills about 95% of all abuse potential.

The system being copied included that. Maybe the next itteration of Object creation should include a limited duration?

 

I need to dive into the rules a bit to figure out the base cost of this power (asuming the GM allows weapon creation). Mostly matching the Defenses and Body of the Focus possible.

[Christopher]

The most AP intensive Melee weapon for Fanatasy settings I could find was the Great Axe, at 54 AP.

So PD/ED should be 11 (54/5 = 11)

There is no body defined, but Object Creation demands body to be bought within Defenses/2. With the lack of granularity, 8 is the target.

 

So here is my math on Object creation, 1 Minute Time Limit:

Object Creation: 20

Complexity: Most melee and Ranged Weapons are covered by the baseline. However Crossbows might require the +10 "Complex Object" Modifier

Buy Defenses from 2 to 11: 9x3 = +27

Buy Body from 2 to 8 to match Defenses: +6

Every Doubling (from 1 object): +5; However I doubt we need doublings nessesarily. You can just spend several half-phases creating weapons

 

For the Duration, Object Creation has a custom Limitation "Limited Lifespan". It happens to end at -2, same value as time 1 Minute Time Limit

Additional Limitation "Limited Objects" Might be applicable. But even just having the Option to Create Weapons with this power might negate that.

 

Object Creation:

Base Cost: 53 Base

Advantages: None

Limitations: 1 Minute Duration or Limited Lifespan (1 Minute) (-2)

Real Cost: 18 Character Points

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

Hugh I believe the idea of the spell is to have a weapon NOW. YeH I could go to the local smithy and buy one but right now I’m in the middle of the dungeon in a fight.

[Ninja-Bear]

Christoper you do understand that you keep quoting weapons from the book as if those write ups are absolute. I have multiple books and there are variations in said write ups.  Why because those write ups are still samples and someone’s idea what a certain weapon should be but the caveat has always been adjust to how the GM sees fit. 

 

As a side note, I thought of using althose different stats as distinguishing between cultures/races. For example most swords from 4th ed have a +1 OCV. And what else would you expect from a Master Crsftsman dwarf made sword?

[Christopher]

16 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Christoper you do understand that you keep quoting weapons from the book as if those write ups are absolute.

I am actually quoting them because they are the only guideline I have.

 

Why do people keep claiming I am some kind of Rule Fanatic just becaue I dare to have a reference to what I say?

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

10 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Christoper you do understand that you keep quoting weapons from the book as if those write ups are absolute. I have multiple books and there are variations in said write ups.  Why because those write ups are still samples and someone’s idea what a certain weapon should be but the caveat has always been adjust to how the GM sees fit. 

Christoper's point was that if the power can make the most expensive weapon then you're good.  What exactly that price is is immaterial, so in the absence of the OP posting their GM's weapon table one book is as good as any. 

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, Christopher said:

I am actually quoting them because they are the only guideline I have.

 

Why do people keep claiming I am some kind of Rule Fanatic just becaue I dare to have a reference to what I say?

I don’t think your a rule fanatic for quoting what you have. It’s the insistence that the stats that you have are immutable.  And I know I can fall into the trap that is Hero system which is “here is a sample or example of a build therefore it is correct and must be this way”. Instead of what Hero has always been”Here is a sample/example of build use it as is or change it if you want to, how it works in your individual game is the correct way-even if one must break the rule”.

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Christoper's point was that if the power can make the most expensive weapon then you're good.  What exactly that price is is immaterial, so in the absence of the OP posting their GM's weapon table one book is as good as any. 

Not arguing with that. Just pointing out that like Massey, for the spell, you don’t need to build it exactly as it is listed in the book.

[Christopher]

13 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

It’s the insistence that the stats that you have are immutable.

I never said that. Please quote where you think I said that.

[Ninja-Bear]

On 1/12/2019 at 2:11 PM, Christopher said:

I guess you mean this System?
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/209297/OLD-The-Fantasy-Heroic-Roleplaying-Game

I could not find it on Wikipedia.

 

It will not be a simple, low level spell in Hero by Rules as Written. Bookwise it would have to be " 2D6 HKA (30 Base Cost/6 DC) with 0 END (+1/2), UBO (+1/2)", wich is 60 Active Points.

 

Of course the GM can allow you to break/bend the rules, by allowing you to use object creation or summon. Just the 1 minute time limit would be enough to avoid most of the Abuse potential inherent in weapon/object creation. Combing that with "Weapons are not that hard are to come by" would be okay-ish balance wise I think.

You mean the paragraph where you mentioned bookwise and then the next post

[Hugh Neilson]

On 1/14/2019 at 2:22 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

Hugh I believe the idea of the spell is to have a weapon NOW. YeH I could go to the local smithy and buy one but right now I’m in the middle of the dungeon in a fight.

 

Yup - and if you had Wealth instead of this ability you could use it to hire men at arms, buy items other than weaponry, or use it for a variety of other tasks rather than acquiring a weapon whenever it is needed.  I did not suggest "buying wealth instead". I suggested pricing the magical ability to conjure a weapon that fades away in a minute or so at a point level similar to the wealth that would be required to easily be able to purchase a number of weapons sufficient to always have those weapons available.

 

If the player wanted a spell that spins straw into gold, I would suggest Wealth, not Transform.  In a heroic campaign, wealth makes things like weapons more available, so basing the cost of always having access to a weapon exactly when it is needed on wealth seems reasonable to me. 

 

Rather than trying to build this with the "perfect mechanics for any genre or setting", I am trying to reason the cost from the effects in the typical heroic fantasy genre and setting, so that the player gets the ability he is looking for at a reasonable point cost - neither a cost which is ridiculously low nor one which is insanely high for the in-game benefits it can reasonably be expected to deliver.  Most characters going to a dungeon are expecting a fight and bring a weapon along, at least in my experience.

[Christopher]

21 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

You mean the paragraph where you mentioned bookwise and then the next post 

How does that say those stats are inmutable? Stop making a guideline I pulled out of the books into a "You are a fanatic" argument.

 

I do not like to argue against peoples imagination. It is tiresome.

[Ninja-Bear]

12 hours ago, Christopher said:

How does that say those stats are inmutable? Stop making a guideline I pulled out of the books into a "You are a fanatic" argument.

 

I do not like to argue against peoples imagination. It is tiresome.

Because you kept referring to those stats as how the Longsword had to be built.  When Massey wrote an aleternative you were no it had to have STR min etc...

[Duke Bushido]

On January 14, 2019 at 4:30 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

 

As a side note, I thought of using althose different stats as distinguishing between cultures/races. For example most swords from 4th ed have a +1 OCV. And what else would you expect from a Master Crsftsman dwarf made sword?

 

 

That, Sir, is a _wonderful_ idea!  Instant detail, and instant depth to your world.  Very elegant.  

 

[Christopher]

On 1/16/2019 at 11:53 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

Because you kept referring to those stats as how the Longsword had to be built.  When Massey wrote an aleternative you were no it had to have STR min etc...

 

Please read it slowly so you actually understand it this time:

a) I picked the values so we have anything to talk about. "Something times something" is just not a good basis for a rules discussion

 

b) I picked them as upper bound. Wich is something I actually wrote:

On 1/13/2019 at 12:54 AM, Christopher said:

So yeah, 2D6/6DC is a pretty common figure for Heroic weapons. Certainly the upper bound you have to aim too.

Gnome BODY got that:

On 1/14/2019 at 10:50 PM, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Christoper's point was that if the power can make the most expensive weapon then you're good.  What exactly that price is is immaterial, so in the absence of the OP posting their GM's weapon table one book is as good as any. 

 

c) I had no other values to go by. Wich is something I actually wrote:

On 1/14/2019 at 10:48 PM, Christopher said:

I am actually quoting them because they are the only guideline I have. 

 

d) I said it is the GM prerogative to waive any rule - including the one that Object Creation can not make weapons - if he chooses so. Here, let me repeat it for a 3rd time:

On 1/12/2019 at 8:11 PM, Christopher said:

Of course the GM can allow you to break/bend the rules, by allowing you to use object creation or summon. Just the 1 minute time limit would be enough to avoid most of the Abuse potential inherent in weapon/object creation. Combing that with "Weapons are not that hard are to come by" would be okay-ish balance wise I think. 

Indeed I defended that with 1 minute duration, Object Creation and Weapon Creation in any build would propably be okay anyway:

On 1/12/2019 at 8:11 PM, Christopher said:

Just the 1 minute time limit would be enough to avoid most of the Abuse potential inherent in weapon/object creation. Combing that with "Weapons are not that hard are to come by" would be okay-ish balance wise I think. 

 

On 1/14/2019 at 8:53 PM, Christopher said:

Well the Spell that is being duplicated had a duration of 1 minute. That duration alone kills about 95% of all abuse potential.

The system being copied included that. Maybe the next itteration of Object creation should include a limited duration?

 

I need to dive into the rules a bit to figure out the base cost of this power (asuming the GM allows weapon creation). Mostly matching the Defenses and Body of the Focus possible.

 

Suprisingly that applies to wich value weapons have to begin with. So your argument that I am some rules fanatic does not exist outside your head. Please keep it in there. Or get it out there, now that I have debunked it 3 times.

 

[massey]

On 1/16/2019 at 4:40 AM, Christopher said:

How does that say those stats are inmutable? Stop making a guideline I pulled out of the books into a "You are a fanatic" argument.

 

I do not like to argue against peoples imagination. It is tiresome.

 

Don't worry.  The rest of us know all about tiresome arguments with people. 

[Beast]

For me I would go with buying multi-power with HKA(sword) RKA (javalin) and an HA(club or staff)
then I would put restrainable on it
then maybe flavor it with incantations, extra time to turn on
as it has no focus it would just be weapons that only you can use
add usable with others and and outfit a squad of friends
 

[Ninja-Bear]

5 hours ago, Beast said:

For me I would go with buying multi-power with HKA(sword) RKA (javalin) and an HA(club or staff)
then I would put restrainable on it
then maybe flavor it with incantations, extra time to turn on
as it has no focus it would just be weapons that only you can use
add usable with others and and outfit a squad of friends
 

Nice though I would use Physical manifestation to act as a focus. I.e the summoned sword can still be attacked/disarmed.

[Beast]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Nice though I would use Physical manifestation to act as a focus. I.e the summoned sword can still be attacked/disarmed.

I would consider that restrainable would include this as a disarm,weapon bind,etc

[Ninja-Bear]

Beast that’s a point that I missed. I can see that too.