Is this a thing?

[Christopher R Taylor]

I've been struggling with a concept for spells for quite a while now, even when working on the Codex.  Its a dual- or multiple-purpose spell.  Its not a multipower, but instead a spell that does different things depending on the target.

For instance, a power that can have one effect on one target or another on a different kind.  Or one that has multiple different effects on different people all at once.

 

     Examples

Holy Bolt

Effects: 6d6 blast or 3d6 Heal Body

Against friendly targets heals 3d6 Body, against undead, deals 6d6 damage

 

Chaos Bomb

Effects: varies in an 8m radius

Has 6 different effects that can take place, randomly, to each target in an area (all at once)

1) Flash 8d6 sight

2) Blast 5d6 double knockback only to throw upward, deals no damage

3) Cosmetic Transformation 10½d6 turns blue for 3d6 days (improved results: same as before, but blue)

4) Drain 2d6 Dexterity, recover per minute (drunk)

5) Entangle 4d6 4 PD 4 ED (wrapped in silly string)

6) Teleport as an attack 14 m random direction

 

Touch of Nature

Effects: Aid 2d6, recover per hour, are effect radius 4m

Increases a stat based on the character's needs (Strength for warriors, INT for mages, etc)

 

Ghost Bolt

Effects: 6d6 blast

Has no effect on -- passes through -- targets that aren't undead.

 

The concept is not really linked; you only get one power per target.  A linked would affect everyone with both effects, then have to be bought so it didn't, which would be needlessly expensive.  This instead has one effect per target, but it varies by who the target is.  All present build concepts require a huge active cost and fair expense for a moderate amount of flexibility.  This almost feels like it should be a power framework, or at least an advantage like variable special effect or variable advantage that changes the power based on the target.

[Toxxus]

Your final paragraph has the gist of it.

 

7 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

A linked would affect everyone with both effects, then have to be bought so it didn't, which would be needlessly expensive. 

 

You are most likely going to have to go down this painfully complicated and expensive path to model most abilities with this level of differentiation.

 

In some campaigns such as old school D&D you'd probably get to have your Healing 3d6 do 6d6 Blast or even 2d6 RKA based on the special effects of your ability and how the GM determines positive and negative energies interact in their universe.

 

Ghost Bolt you could do with the indirect advantage and a tiny matching disadvantage (-1/4) that the indirect is a pass-through that only works on living creatures.

 

As far as powers like Chaos Bomb or the classic Prismatic Spray  / Wall spells from D&D you are looking at Linking a bunch of effects.  Alternately you might have a VPP for that spell if the GM allows you to randomly roll the effects of equal active point costs.  There's no simple way to construct something like that.  D&D doesn't have a good model for it either.  They just use divine fiat and often ignore game balance using the Rule of Cool.

 

Hopefully someone has a better idea in mind on how to handle this than I do. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I mean I can BUILD them in the current rules, but its like some of the painful constructs you had to do in old school Champions to get something the rules just didn't cover.  WIth the toolkit in its current form, there's not much you can't do but every once in a while you run into something like this.

[Doc Democracy]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Holy Bolt

Effects: 6d6 blast or 3d6 Heal Body

Against friendly targets heals 3d6 Body, against undead, deals 6d6 damage

 

 

I think this is very much about setting up your campaign.  I think here undead come with a physical complication that they take an equivalent DC of Blast when healing is applied to them.

 

Quote

 

Chaos Bomb

Effects: varies in an 8m radius

Has 6 different effects that can take place, randomly, to each target in an area (all at once)

1) Flash 8d6 sight

2) Blast 5d6 double knockback only to throw upward, deals no damage

3) Cosmetic Transformation 10½d6 turns blue for 3d6 days (improved results: same as before, but blue)

4) Drain 2d6 Dexterity, recover per minute (drunk)

5) Entangle 4d6 4 PD 4 ED (wrapped in silly string)

6) Teleport as an attack 14 m random direction

 

 

This indeed is a multipower with NCC on the reserve.  

 

Quote

 

Touch of Nature

Effects: Aid 2d6, recover per hour, are effect radius 4m

Increases a stat based on the character's needs (Strength for warriors, INT for mages, etc)

 

 

Hmm, quite a powerful effect. I would probably cost a power that allowed me to provide 2D6 Aid, variable effect, area effect selective and usable by others.   I am using the usable by others in the extent that each person gets to choose what effect they want from the Aid.

 

 

Quote

 

Ghost Bolt

Effects: 6d6 blast

Has no effect on -- passes through -- targets that aren't undead.

 

 

Hmm.  So, you could shoot an undead target through one or more non-undead.  I reckon I would purchase a blast with indirect on it and give it a +0 limitation of only vs undead.  That is +1/2 as far as I am cioncerned.  the path is always from character but can by-pass any number of non-undead before it hits an undead.  I presume barriers would stop it?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I think here undead come with a physical complication that they take an equivalent DC of Blast when healing is applied to them.

 

OK but now instead of a neat spell concept that burns undead or heals people, EVERY heal burns undead, and its not a spell concept any longer.

 

Quote

This indeed is a multipower with NCC on the reserve.  

 

Um well I guess you COULD build it as a multipower, with a pool gigantic enough that all of them can go off at once... then buy it as an area effect selective, with some kind of autofire so it hits each person differently but only once???  I mean, we're talking like 179 active points here.

OR, you could design a different, new construct that does what the spells intend without being so ridiculously expensive and complex...

[Doc Democracy]

41 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Um well I guess you COULD build it as a multipower, with a pool gigantic enough that all of them can go off at once... then buy it as an area effect selective, with some kind of autofire so it hits each person differently but only once???  I mean, we're talking like 179 active points here.

OR, you could design a different, new construct that does what the spells intend without being so ridiculously expensive and complex...

 

Dammit, missed the point that it could be any of them in the area effect...

 

I would therefore do it as no concious control, area effect, variable effect and usable by others.  It still comes to a chunk of points but then should it not, as you hit a whole bunch of people with a number of different effects over a period of time??

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I would therefore do it as no conscious control, area effect, variable effect and usable by others.  It still comes to a chunk of points but then should it not, as you hit a whole bunch of people with a number of different effects over a period of time??

 

Yeah but "variable effect" is the sort of animal I'm trying to get at here; a mechanic that simulates different effects to different targets from the same power.  And since you're hitting each one with a different power, but not the other, its not really the same as a buncha stuff going off at once.  That is, its not "6 powers linked together all going off at once" but "6 powers, each one randomly going off on one target at a time"  Which is a massively different power level.

[Lucius]

 

The closest thing we have to what you're looking for is the "Usable as ________" Advantage for movement powers that allows one kind of movement to be used as another.

 

If you want to expand the idea so that any one power can be used as any other power, I'm thinking that's a +1 Advantage - and if you have six different possible effects you're looking at applying the Advantage FIVE times.

 

Unless you use "Variable Advantage" I suppose.....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Variable Palindromedary Tagline

[Doc Democracy]

Good thinking Lucius.  It would have that +1 and area effect.  The random effect is possibly worth something but possibly no more than +1/4??  I guess it would depend on whether the options disadvantaged the person firing it off had significant duff possibilities.  As it is the power user cannot optimise the effect to the opponent but they are almost all potentially efficacious.

[Christopher]

21 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Effects: 6d6 blast or 3d6 Heal Body

Against friendly targets heals 3d6 Body, against undead, deals 6d6 damage 

What you try to model here is a campaign rule. D&D campaign rules say:
"Negative Energy hurts living and heals undead"

"Positive Energy hurts undead and heals living"

 

You do not model campaign rules with power builds. As a GM, you declare them. Same way you declare the Starting points and Attribute caps. You just say "X AP of Positive Energy Healing does Y DC of damage to undead".

 

21 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Chaos Bomb

Effects: varies in an 8m radius

Has 6 different effects that can take place, randomly, to each target in an area (all at once)

1) Flash 8d6 sight

2) Blast 5d6 double knockback only to throw upward, deals no damage

3) Cosmetic Transformation 10½d6 turns blue for 3d6 days (improved results: same as before, but blue)

4) Drain 2d6 Dexterity, recover per minute (drunk)

5) Entangle 4d6 4 PD 4 ED (wrapped in silly string)

6) Teleport as an attack 14 m random direction 

I can not even think of a D&D spell that has that spread of effects. Such a degree of Randomness is just not manageable.

 

The closest thing is Prismatic Spray:
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Prismatic Spray#h-Prismatic Spray

The first 5 results are the same damage with randomized special effects. Wich can trigger specialist defenses or weaknesses.

6 is Paralysis/turn to stone

7 is a banishment effect

8 is only there because we do not have D7's outside of Star Trek.

 

21 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Touch of Nature

Effects: Aid 2d6, recover per hour, are effect radius 4m

Increases a stat based on the character's needs (Strength for warriors, INT for mages, etc)

So multiple aided Characteristics and even picking hte right Characteristic automagically? Maybe a UBO Multipower of wich only one option can be picked?
Again, not a spell I know even D&D of having due to balancing issues.

 

21 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Ghost Bolt

Effects: 6d6 blast

Has no effect on -- passes through -- targets that aren't undead.

An attack that treats certain kinds of barriers as transparent?

Indirect would work to hit a undead enemy behind an ally and got past most other cover/barriers.

"Only affects undead" is a clear limitation.

Maybe you could even combine them into a +0 advantage, similar to "only does STUN" attacks?

 

 

[Doc Democracy]

I do think having spell effects that are not in D&D is an actively good thing!!  ?

 

Christopher has already indicated that the generic energy element is not what he wanted, he wanted a cool spell effect rath r than something that affects all heal spells.  Personally that would not worry me, I might facilitate that only a heal spell from a certain deity would have that effect built into undead.  For example, it would make sense for clerics of St Cuthbert or Pholtus (in Greyhawk) to damage undead with healing spells but not other deities.

 

Doc

[Christopher]

 

22 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Chaos Bomb

Effects: varies in an 8m radius

Has 6 different effects that can take place, randomly, to each target in an area (all at once)

1) Flash 8d6 sight

2) Blast 5d6 double knockback only to throw upward, deals no damage

3) Cosmetic Transformation 10½d6 turns blue for 3d6 days (improved results: same as before, but blue)

4) Drain 2d6 Dexterity, recover per minute (drunk)

5) Entangle 4d6 4 PD 4 ED (wrapped in silly string)

6) Teleport as an attack 14 m random direction 

 

8 minutes ago, Christopher said:

I can not even think of a D&D spell that has that spread of effects. Such a degree of Randomness is just not manageable.

I want to stress this a bit more: This chaos bomb is propably unuseably swingy.

One the one hand, it turns the enemy blue.

On the other it teleports an enemy off the tower the final fight takes place in, instantly killing him/taking him out of the fight or nessisating a rescue.

Even the Teleport power itself is highly swingy, as the fight might happen on the ground, the teleport might move it more to the center or the enemy might have flight, wich would make it more like turning someone blue.

 

That delta of Randomness is the size of the Grand Canyon:

 

[Christopher]

8 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

I do think having spell effects that are not in D&D is an actively good thing!!  ?

D&D has some pretty extreme effects, that incldue stuff like "Instant Death". It already comes with a high delta of Randomness.

 

If D&D does not have a thing, it is likely too swingy to ever be used by a player or GM. It is too unpredictable for a game that has "you die, no saving throw" effects!

[Doc Democracy]

1 minute ago, Christopher said:

 

 

I want to stress this a bit more: This chaos bomb is propably unuseably swingy.

One the one hand, it turns the enemy blue.

On the other it teleports an enemy off the tower the final fight takes place in, instantly killing him/taking him out of the fight or nessisating a rescue.

Even the Teleport power itself is highly swingy, as the fight might happen on the ground, the teleport might move it more to the center or the enemy might have flight, wich would make it more like turning someone blue.

 

I think Christopher (the OP Christopher) would point out that they are the same AP.  If each of them individually would be OK, having them randomly occur should not be an issue for anyone but the spellcaster...

[Christopher]

11 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

I think Christopher (the OP Christopher) would point out that they are the same AP.  If each of them individually would be OK, having them randomly occur should not be an issue for anyone but the spellcaster...

As the spellcast is the person that has to Spend Character points to buy this power, it being unuseably swingy is very important.

There is no point in designing a power that breaks all design rules of Hero and will never be taken by a player or even NPC, because it is unuseably swingy.

 

Not everything that can be done, needs to be done

And with Hero games we in part have to think like Game Designers ourself.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

If you want to expand the idea so that any one power can be used as any other power, I'm thinking that's a +1 Advantage

 

See now we're getting into the realm of discussing the idea rather than trying to find a way to kludge an ugly paragraph describing a way to simulate the idea.  I agree that if you want a power that can have ANY other power as an alternative effect, that should be pretty spendy.  But I question whether its worth doubling the cost (more expensive than buying two powers and linking them in real cost) for something that still only takes effect once.  You aren't getting both effects at the same time with the heal/hurt blast.  You're just getting one effect, depending on which target you hit.  That's not worth double the price, in my book.  Maybe +½ or +¾ but it will take some 'splaining to get that high a price.

 

Seriously, compare to other existing structures.  I can have two different powers that I can choose between for 1.2 times the price (Multipower).  Roughly a +¼ advantage, to have them both go off, but at different times.  This is a power that goes off, two different powers, but automatically yet dependent on the target.  It looks like a ½ advantage from where I'm sitting.  Double the powers, but at half efficiency.

 

Quote

and if you have six different possible effects you're looking at applying the Advantage FIVE times.

 

Again, one target at a time.  I understand buying them all at once if you had them all go off at once, but really?  +5 for a power that still only affects each target differently, once?  If I bought variable advantage on this it would be +2 max, then I could put a limit on it that made it randomly affect each target.  And that would let me have literally any advantage up to +1 take effect on the targets.  No matter how many people you hit, its the same advantage.  You pay for area effect to hit multiple targets, you don't buy multiple advantages.  If I have armor piercing on my blast I don't buy it six times to hit six people in an AE.

[Toxxus]

I'd say the advantage on this power would be based on utility.

 

If I have an Omni Grenade and I can choose which of the various powers effects each target in the explosion that is VERY powerful.  Definitely some stacking advantage based on how many equivalent powers you get to choose from.

 

On the other hand if I have a Technicolor Spew ability and each target in the cone is affected by a random power from the list that would actually be a disadvantage since you have no control over what happens.  Now that I've thought about it I might just declare this part of the "Prismatic" special effect and call it a wash.

[eepjr24]

7 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Seriously, compare to other existing structures.  I can have two different powers that I can choose between for 1.2 times the price (Multipower).  Roughly a +¼ advantage, to have them both go off, but at different times.  This is a power that goes off, two different powers, but automatically yet dependent on the target.  It looks like a ½ advantage from where I'm sitting.  Double the powers, but at half efficiency.

Okay. Existing structure there is a way to do what you want. It's called Multiple Attack. Simply pay the -2 OCV per attack after the first and you have your power built. If you want it to be random, I'd throw in some limitations around that, based on the amount of variation in effect with a baseline of -1/4 (worst case you still have a 1 in 6 chance of getting the effect you want). You probably would add -1/2 Unified Power to the whole set of powers. Another -1/2 if you added that each target could only be affected by a single power. 

 

So for each 10 points of effect (assuming 6 powers) you would pay 60/2.25 = 27 or less real points. Sounds like a bargain for me given the potential usefulness. I would recommend some OCV levels with the unified powers, though.

 

To me, what you have is a clear way to do things in the system that you see as over priced for the result. If this is your game, build the structure you want, balance the points and move on. 

 

- E

[Lord Liaden]

I'm thinking Multipower with the different Powers you want to apply to the spell, with No Conscious Control on the whole thing to model the result depending on circumstances beyond the caster's control.

[Ninja-Bear]

11 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

I'm thinking Multipower with the different Powers you want to apply to the spell, with No Conscious Control on the whole thing to model the result depending on circumstances beyond the caster's control.

Wouldn’t it be easier to use a VPP instead of the MP and still include everything else you said.

[Lucius]

On 2/4/2019 at 1:21 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Chaos Bomb

Effects: varies in an 8m radius

Has 6 different effects that can take place, randomly, to each target in an area (all at once)

1) Flash 8d6 sight

2) Blast 5d6 double knockback only to throw upward, deals no damage

3) Cosmetic Transformation 10½d6 turns blue for 3d6 days (improved results: same as before, but blue)

4) Drain 2d6 Dexterity, recover per minute (drunk)

5) Entangle 4d6 4 PD 4 ED (wrapped in silly string)

6) Teleport as an attack 14 m random direction

 

 

1 - Figure out which among these are most useful/desireable from the point of a view of the chaos bomb thrower. I'm thinking probably the Flash, Blast, and Entangle.

2 - Calculate the costs of these.

3 - Take the two most expensive of useful powers and buy them, Linked, with Area Effect

4 - Apply a Limitation (Lockout?) to both linked powers that any given target in the area only gets hit with one ability at most

5 - Apply No Conscious Control to both linked powers at the -1 level

6 - Apply a Major Side Effects Limitation to both linked powers, with the alternate effects defined as Side Effects ("effect the environment" modifier)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Side Effects: may see palindromedaries

[Christopher R Taylor]

This is the kind of dicussion I imagine in 2nd edition with people talking about how to transform people.  Um, use stretching, with shrinking!  Buy it in a Multipower!
 

Or... come up with Transform as a power.

 

Sometimes the solutions people come up with are a demonstration that something else should be done or something new might be useful for the toolkit.

[Hugh Neilson]

On 2/4/2019 at 11:21 AM, Christopher R Taylor said:

     Examples

Holy Bolt

Effects: 6d6 blast or 3d6 Heal Body

Against friendly targets heals 3d6 Body, against undead, deals 6d6 damage

 

Chaos Bomb

Effects: varies in an 8m radius

Has 6 different effects that can take place, randomly, to each target in an area (all at once)

1) Flash 8d6 sight

2) Blast 5d6 double knockback only to throw upward, deals no damage

3) Cosmetic Transformation 10½d6 turns blue for 3d6 days (improved results: same as before, but blue)

4) Drain 2d6 Dexterity, recover per minute (drunk)

5) Entangle 4d6 4 PD 4 ED (wrapped in silly string)

6) Teleport as an attack 14 m random direction

 

Touch of Nature

Effects: Aid 2d6, recover per hour, are effect radius 4m

Increases a stat based on the character's needs (Strength for warriors, INT for mages, etc)

 

Ghost Bolt

Effects: 6d6 blast

Has no effect on -- passes through -- targets that aren't undead.

 

 

I find these are very different effects, not examples of similar constructs.

 

Holy Bolt seems like two linked powers, a Blast which only affects the Undead, and a Heal that does not affect the Undead.  Given how often you would want to heal the undead, it does not seem unreasonable to buy these as two Linked powers - and I note this also includes the not-incidental side benefit of identifying an undead creature that can pass for human.

 

Touch of Nature seems like a simple variable effect on the Aid.  Perhaps we need a modifier for the ability to have a different effect apply to each target.  Here, that different effect is beneficial, so that is an advantage over and above the ability to change the stat affected for each usage.  Maybe an extra +1/4 or +1/2?

 

Ghost Blast seems like Indirect if it bypasses barriers, and only affects Undead targets.  Once again, with the possible advantage of identifying undead who are not otherwise obvious.

 

Chaos Bomb seems like the tough one.  Six different effects.  OK, I am going to say "buy all six as Linked powers", which I know is the exact opposite of what you want to hear.  However, that is what you have here.  But only one will activate - each one has one chance in 6 of activating.  A 7- comes up on 3d6 16.2% of the time, which is pretty close to 1 chance in 6.  So I would allow each power the same limitation of "Activate 7-" with the handwave that you don't roll for each one - one of them, and only one, activates against each target.  That's RSR (11-; -1/2), Roll each use (-1/2), 7- (1 more limitation) so -2.

 

That seems like a reasonably RAW solution.  Adding that -2 limitation to Linking all of the powers is going to reduce the cost considerably, although I think it may still come out pretty expensive for the effect.  I could see an extra NCC limitation, over and above the Activation and Linked limitations, given the complete lack of control over the effect, but RAW, I think the normal limitation for a single power that only works 1 time in 6 is -2, so unless we think that is not the right cost, I think -2 is the right limitation.

 

Outside the costing, it seems like this would be a really annoying power in play (OK, I roll to hit the hex, now I roll for the effect it has on each person in the area, now I roll the damage//effect for each of those effects - that will tie the game up in a really long action every time the Chaos Bomb is used). 

[Christopher]

11 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I'm thinking Multipower with the different Powers you want to apply to the spell, with No Conscious Control on the whole thing to model the result depending on circumstances beyond the caster's control.

The thing is that with Multipowers you can ot use all teh powers at the same time. That is why they are cheaper.

 

That being said, I once did something thinking about how to put Multipowers into VPP's and vice versa, by treating the whole Multipower like a single power.

It could at least be generalized. You build a Multipower that has a monolythic cost. Then apply Area of Effect to it.

 

6 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

This is the kind of dicussion I imagine in 2nd edition with people talking about how to transform people.  Um, use stretching, with shrinking!  Buy it in a Multipower!
 

Or... come up with Transform as a power.

 

Sometimes the solutions people come up with are a demonstration that something else should be done or something new might be useful for the toolkit.

I am still not certain that this is a build/power that can be balanced. It is just too swingy.

And even if you could make it, I doubt anybody would use it. Because again: Too swingy.

Any Randomess would have to be a limitation. But how much, depends on the "time lost" formula . Wich will be different in a game where turning blue has you killed by the gods vs. a normal game where turning blue just makes you fell a bit ... blue.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Actually an idea occurred to me.

 

What if this was an advantage on Multipower.  Bear with me here.

 

What if you bought an advantage on multipower that let it automatically swap slots when used based on the target?  That way you're paying not only for the power but each slot it can swap to on its own, and the more slots you have, the more expensive it can get (since you would buy it on each slot that applies). 

 

So you buy your Multipower as usual

 

50 MULTIPOWER (various effects) + advantage that makes it autochoose when used

5f  5 damage class killing attack (only affects undead) +advantage

5f  5d6 heal body +advantage

 

I'm not sure how much it should be, probably not a huge amount since autoswapping isn't an enormous advantage, sort of a really dedicated trigger.  I'm thinking +¼?