haymaker for sneak attack

[steph]

How you manage the damage for surprise attacks. I have never been a fan of the deadly blow that I find close to dnd or pathfinder. A friend suggested that I use Haymaker. What seems to me a good use of the maneuver. The damage is not Limited. A rogue with a dagger, 1d6 Will do 2d6+1 with is haymaker.

 

What do you Think ?

 

Steph

 

 

 

[ScottishFox]

Deadly Blow does a better job for this type of thing.

 

Is there any particular reason you don't like Deadly Blow?

Or is there a reason you want the rogue to have to take an extra segment and a 5 point DCV penalty to do enough damage to matter in combat?

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

Another concern with using haymaker to model "sneak attack" is that it means everyone has "sneak attack". 

Out of combat Surprise Attacks already get a damage multiplier.  In combat, I don't see why an unsuspecting target would be hit harder instead of just more easily. 

[pawsplay]

Skill levels, only to negate penalties for aiming at the vitals.

Haymaker is fine, though. And there is nothing wrong with "everyone having sneak attack."

[mallet]

I think you have to decide what a "sneak attack" is in your game. 

 

A) Is a sneak attack a "mystical" ability that only Thieves can do because D&D said so, so many years ago? 

B ) Is a sneak attack a "skill" that anyone can learn?

C) Is sneak attack a maneuver that anyone can attempt?

 

Then it is also important to breakdown what exactly a sneak attack is and does. How does it work in your game? Is it just "magical" bonus damage for attacking someone from behind when they don't expect it? Or is it taking the time to skillfully attack someone to avoid their armor? Is it being skilled at making "called shots" to vital places on their body when they don't expect it? 

 

Depending on the answer to both of those questions will help you decide what type of Sneak Attack build is best for your game. 

 

One build might be a simple "Deadly Blow" 

Another might be a Naked Advantage (Armor Piercing) 

Another might be Skill Levels to hit vital body parts on the hit location chart

Another might be a Haymaker 

Another might be a Naked Advantage (AVAD (regular PD), Does Body) 

Another might be a Martial Arts maneuver for a type of offensive strike or something 

 

There a dozens of ways to build a sneak attack ability in Hero, you just need to decide how it works in your game, and who can attempt it. Once you know those two things, a logical build should follow.

 

[Spence]

2 hours ago, mallet said:

Depending on the answer to both of those questions will help you decide what type of Sneak Attack build is best for your game. 

 

One build might be a simple "Deadly Blow" 

Another might be a Naked Advantage (Armor Piercing) 

Another might be Skill Levels to hit vital body parts on the hit location chart

Another might be a Haymaker 

Another might be a Naked Advantage (AVAD (regular PD), Does Body) 

Another might be a Martial Arts maneuver for a type of offensive strike or something 

 

Or is it simply "surprise"?

[mallet]

50 minutes ago, Spence said:

 

Or is it simply "surprise"?

 

Exactly! Although since a whole thread was started on the subject I assumed they wanted other/alternate ideas on how it might be built/work.

[LoneWolf]

Do you use hit locations in your campaign?  The reason I ask is that if a character is surprised out of combat the penalty for a called shot is halved.  That means that a head shot is a -4 OCV instead of -8.  Add this to the fact that a character that is out of combat takes x2 stun means that someone who get the drop on a character can easily take them out with relatively low damage.  Since the character is at ½ DCV and most maneuvers and skill levels will not apply it is quite easy to take even a strong foe down when they are not expecting it.   If you are using an attack that does normal damage and hit locations you are doing x4 stun.  If it is a killing attack you are doing a x10 stun multiplier. 

[CptPatriot]

I don't usually chime in on Fantasy Hero, but here's my two cents.

Hero has a mechanic for handling Surprise Attacks for the everyman. Using Deadly Blow for Sneak Attacks is about characters who are good at attacking under those conditions. Using Haymaker is supposed to the all out effort and I would not use it as a surprise attack, but I would use it to lay the smackdown on an enemy that they expect would be a challenge to defeat. A rogish character would use Haymaker combined with the Surprise Attack is situations where their superior Dexterity and Speed would allow them to act before the enemy's reprisal.

 

 

[pawsplay]

I think D&D 5e style sneak attack is best represented by 4 PSLs vs. Hit Location penalties (12 points). Limit it to "Daggers and light blades" for 8 points. That lets you aim for the Vitals without penalty when you have surprise.

[ScottishFox]

17 hours ago, pawsplay said:

I think D&D 5e style sneak attack is best represented by 4 PSLs vs. Hit Location penalties (12 points). Limit it to "Daggers and light blades" for 8 points. That lets you aim for the Vitals without penalty when you have surprise.

 

An attack to the Vitals is a penalty of -8 OCV.  You would need 8 PSLs to cover that.

 

Deadly blow is the most direct solution to this problem, imo, and allows the rogue to still be useful against armored targets.

[pawsplay]

Not when you have surprise.

[Killer Shrike]

If you are going that route, you might use a custom variant of Offensive Strike, adding a must follow element ("must follow stealth roll"). Slap a couple of other maneuvers together into a "Backstabber" martial art package (etc) and you are fine.