Joe Walsh

1 hour ago, rravenwood said:

 

It's from Hero Games' Newsletter vol 1 no 2, which doesn't contain a publication date, but by taking clues from things mentioned within, can roughly be placed to late 1983 or early 1984.  (It mentions Gencon '83 in the past tense, and asks readers hold off on mailing in "orders for Champions III till June first.")

Aha! Very interesting. So that newsletter likely came out after Espionage!

I guess that makes sense.

More great advice:

Quote

Try to stay away from firefights. When firefights occur, try to defuse the situation if it's appropriate. The bad guys will occasionally surrender, you know. Remember, autofire is the great equalizer. If the players have really screwed up, even after every chance to correct their mistakes, don't hesitate to open up on them with automatic weapons.

Yeah, it needs work!

The casualness of a lot of the design (and especially the writing) outside of the main rules is pretty remarkable. Here's a paragraph from the GM advice section, for example(emphasis mine):

Quote

Remember the basic rule of role playing games: players react, they don't act (usually). If you depend on the players to think of something to do, you'll never get started. You've got to poke and prod the players into acting. If nothing else, shoot at them! You'll get their attention real quick. Have informers show up and talk to the characters. Whatever you do, don't frustrate all of the player's attempts to find information. If you do, the run won't go anywhere. Don't be afraid to give information to the players. Give them a chance to figure things out, but if they don't, tell them!

They casually interchange "players" and "characters" all the time. It's usually not much of a problem, but I sure hope no one took the advice above literally!

1 hour ago, Tech said:

If Espionage had rules for using polyhedral dice with HERO system, it most likely came from an Adventurer's Club newsletter, as shown below for you.

Wow, I'd forgotten about that newsletter! Such an interesting take on the idea.

Do you happen to know when that issue of the newsletter came out?

That makes it interesting that in Espionage! George came at it from a different angle, producing a chart that gave a damage dice progression from 1d3 on up:

The more closely I look at 2e and 3e, the better they appear.

Crooks thought they could trust the encrypted phones they were buying, but...

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/04/24/crooks-mistaken-bet-on-encrypted-phones

(This is a long read, but I found it interesting.)

In matrimonial news, Tucker Carlson and Fox News have agreed to go their separate ways.

https://deadline.com/2023/04/tucker-carlson-out-at-fox-news-1235334983/

I wish we could upload photos here, but at the moment AP's "Top Stories" headlines are an incredible look at America in a nutshell:
"Ex-officer who fatally shot Breonna Taylor hired as deputy"
"Officer who mistook her gun for taser and killed Duante Wright released"
"Jury selection begins over 2018 Pittsburgh synagogue attack"
"Foreigners airlifted out; Sudanese seek refuge from fighting"
"Probe ordered after shots fired at errant Instacart driver"
"Biden's 2024 campaign has been hiding in plain sight"
"For this Black mom, Ralph Yarl could have been her son"
"Did Ed Sheeran hit pilfer Marvin Gaye classic? Trial to tell"
"'Gender Queer' tops library group's list of challenged books"
"NFL Draft Guide: As usual, QBs are coveted in first round"

Yep, good article! The final paragraph is so key.

On 4/22/2023 at 6:42 PM, Grow-Arm-Hair Lad said:

I guess I want to know: did you ever use them in-game? I had a DM that used the Cardboard Heroes for Fantasy. It's just such a big part of the start of my rpg-ing.

Back in the day, I was a die-hard metal minis guy. Yeah, nothing like spending your formative years handling lead figures! 😂

I only owned a few cardboard figures -- the ones that came with the original GURPS Basic Set and the ones that came with the 4e Champions GM Screen. Didn't use any of 'em in play.

Oh, wait -- there were the ones in TSR's Marvel Super Heroes, too. Those we used for a while. And same for Indiana Jones, too, I believe.

Anyway, these days I've come around on the subject. Partly because I'm not able to paint figures like I used to, and partly because I don't want to have to keep a billion metal minis on hand just in case we might need them.

I think it was around the time Savage Worlds came out that I switched. I went back and bought all the Cardboard Heroes I could get in PDF format and printed what we needed, eventually supplementing with printables made available on DTRPG. All of a sudden I had a use for the pennies in the coin jar!

(I may go back to dimensional minis if I ever get around to getting a resin printer (and accessories...). I've had decent results with my FDM printer, but I'm not sure it's worth it.)

All the king's horses and all the kings men
Can't put your heart back together
What can you do
She's not a tattoo
Can't stay on your arm forever

What do they feed us if it's not a lie
All of the mice here are dying
What are we selling if it's not our souls
Don't wanna believe...but I'm buying

And I thank you for your time
but it's getting hard

Shooting at love in the dark
Beating it into the ground
If he goes then she goes
If they go we all go
We all go down down down

Superimpose me in your frame of mind
Am I still shallow and listless
Are we so far we can't come back around
I saw a sign say "forgiveness"

And I thank you for your time
But it's getting hard

Shooting at love in the dark
Beating it into the ground
If you go then I go
If we go they all go
We all go down down down

Down Down Down

Game over game over game over

Thank you for your time

Shooting at love in the dark
Beating it into the ground
If you go then I go
If we go they all go
We all go down down

Baby I already know
Tell them it's time to come home
If he goes then she goes, if they go we all go
We all go Down Down Down
Down Down Down
Down Down Down

That sounds like it might have been a success had it been released!

(I wonder how many not-quite-published RPGs gamers have made that 'coulda been a contenda' instead of a heartbreaker, back when publishing meant buying thousands of books in the hopes of selling them someday.)

Just taking a moment to celebrate that my Tables pass is complete up to page 48. Just 20 pages to go!

(And then I can go back and start double-checking that what's in my text file matches what's in the book exactly...)

13 hours ago, tkdguy said:

Another sticking point I've noticed is the players' dice preferences. One player didn't like sticking to only six-siders, being used to the other polyhedral dice. That can be another hurdle for some GMs.

12 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I gotta be honest, I miss the funny dice.  I have a beautiful collection, now including some metal dice I will probably never use in anger.

I wonder if anyone's tried using the polyhedral dice conversions in the back of Espionage! to work out a complete polyhedral damage dice system for HERO. The guidelines it gives are just for killing damage rolls and only for the various calibers of weapons in the book, but it would be possible to work from that to get a reasonable set of guidelines for using polyhedrals with HERO:

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

It was in the lineup for Espionage.  Publication was delayed for a numbrr of years (there is a very tragic explanation in the forward).

 

Mugshots 1 is perfectly usable for Espionage, as it is largely a collection of short (and very good) pulp-esque adventures.  No; the character write-how arent for Espionage, but if you have Mugshots 2 and Stormhaven, conversions are easy enough.  Even if you don't, conversions arent really necessary, either.  Just jot down some partial characters and you're ready to run.

Yeah, the cross-pollination between Hero, Steve Jackson, The Chaosium, and Flying Buffalo rocked! And I love that Espionage! even has translation info in the back of the core rulebook.

(On another subject, is Espionage! the only HERO product that includes rules for using polyhedral dice with HERO System? I'd bet Steve Long did that at some point, too, but I can't recall it.)

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

(Was Stormhaven on your list?)

Yup!

I've never used it, but when I last flipped through it my impression was that it's enough material to build a decent campaign on.

Have you ever had a chance to use it?

9 hours ago, Ternaugh said:

Johnny Dangerously: Spoof of the gangster film genre, this film's become a kind of a cult film. It's a fun watch. (HBO Max)

I think in the mid-80s about 20% of the time my friends and I opened our mouths out would pop a Johnny Dangerously quote.

On 4/17/2023 at 8:49 PM, Duke Bushido said:

I am very proud of you!

 

Most people forget Mugshots 2.

 

 

It wounds me that Mugshots 1 wasn't licensed for Espionage!. How can I have Mugshots 2 and not 1 on the shelf? But how can I have Mugshots 1 in the Espionage! lineup when it isn't for that system? Even worse, Mugshots 1 is saddle-stitched, while 2 is perfect bound. It's a nightmare no matter what I do! 🤣

The double-edged blade of having creative players.

Did you find a better term to use?

My intent with the Transport Skills category was to find a term that doesn't overlap with the ones used in the rulebook's Ground Vehicles category:

Construction equipment
Heavy Trucks (semis)
Hovercraft
Military equipment
Motorcycles
Off road Vehicles
Trains

I hadn't thought about it until you mentioned it, but it does seem that RVs, delivery vans, F-450s and the like would be covered by the book's "car" term, since none of the others above seem to cover them. Interesting!

As I go through Espionage! line by line, word by word, maybe I'm missing something that's more big picture, but so far it seems like a really good implementation of heroic-level HERO System. Mostly I'm finding consistency of presentation issues where, for example, something is mentioned in the middle of a paragraph in the Combat chapter that should have also been mentioned back in the Characters chapter. What I've found so far is below. Let me know if you know of other such items.

But like I said, at this point Espionage looks like a great core for heroic role-playing. I don't think it would be beneficial to integrate the superheroic stuff. Weird Talents and the Skills for Contact, Favor, Perks, etc? Sure. But in an Espionage II document that, like Champions II, offers additional material for when it's wanted. I like the idea of keeping the core simple and separate, with two cores (heroic and superheroic), each with its own slope for the decreasing effectiveness of additional similar Disadvantages taken, its own selection of Combat Maneuvers, etc. We'll see how things progress, though.

Here's what I've spotted that needs a touch-up so far:

Characteristics:
    Include basic Running (6") and Swimming (2") values and note that the Skills section explains how to improve them whle the Movement section explains how to use them.
    Also consider mentioning Presence Attack dice with a note that Presence Attacks are further explained in their own section.

Skills:
    Add Conversation and Persuasion to the Anyone skills (place an asterisk after them both in the table and in their entries).
    Provide a list of the Anyone Skills (Familiarities with Climbing, Concealment, Conversation, Deduction, Disguise, Paramedic, Persuasion, Shadowing, and Stealth; plus Transport Skills (Personal Automobiles), Weapon Familiarity (Clubs), and Language (Character's Primary Language)). Discuss their use.

    In the Languages skill, alter the list of more difficult languages to be: Arabic, Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese, and Korean.

    Page 16, Paragraph 1: Under Transport Skills, change "a car" to "personal automobiles".

    In Weapon Familiarity, include the fact that everyone is assumed to have Weapons Familiarity with Clubs (as mentioned in Combat) given that the default ability to drive a car is mentioned under Transport Skills.

Vehicle Combat:
    Page 50, Paragraph 1, sentence 2: Delete this sentence, then add a new one after the sentence on Combat Vehicle Operation: "Characters without Combat Vehicle Operation who have the appropriate Transport Skill have a Control Roll of 8-."

And here's what might make sense for a theoretical Espionage II supplement that provides options for running different kinds of heroic campaigns:

   Although most heroic characters begin with 50 points, the GM can decide to begin them with any number of free points that will fit the campaign (most frequently in the 25 to 75 range).
    Add description of how to make new Package Deals.
    Anything relevant from the Covert Action articles from Adventurers Club.
    Add Brawling skill (from JI p 36).
    Add Weird Talents from JI.
    Contact, Favor, and/or Perquisites Skills from Super Agents and/or Danger International.
    Money purchasing system from Danger International (?).
    Add cinematic vehicle chase rules from DI?
    Add the chase rules from JI?

On 4/17/2023 at 8:39 PM, Duke Bushido said:

There is also the chance with a recurring author or lead writer of editorial team that after having spent time with his previous rules, he found something lacking or superfluous, and took this new opportunity to make what he felt to be a much-needed correction this time around.  Given a third opportunity, he may devise that it was better the first time.

 

Now keep in mind that I have absolutely no facts to suggest that this was the case in the instances you  cite, but I am willing to bet that it has a large degree of accuracy.

You're right -- Who knows at this point what was going on with specific rules changes during 2e and 3e?

We know up until Justice Inc, the game design and development as expressed in the core rulebooks was by MacDonald and Peterson, with MacDonald taking lead on design and development, Peterson taking lead on writing, but both doing some of each. So we can be pretty sure who was making decisions about rules and how they were expressed up through Espionage!

But then we add Allston and Stackpole once we get to the very next game released (Justice Inc). It credits MacDonald and Peterson as well, and although it clearly uses their Espionage! rules as its basis, we don't know which of the four authors proposed each of the changes in that volume, which of them really thought deeply about each one before agreeing, etc.

Still, in this specific instance, we have two games in a row (Espionage! and Justice Inc) with exactly the same wording for exactly the same set of Combat Maneuvers. Both refer to 'tripping' being covered by the existing Combat Maneuvers. But none of the Combat Maneuver descriptions mention tripping. So we're left to wonder how they were using those maneuvers and which one they felt covered tripping.

But I'm guessing in whatever discussions they had, Peterson was less convinced, given that he added a specific Trip maneuver for FH 1e. And then when the reins were handed back to someone else, that went away, so I'm guessing it either didn't work out as expected or the change didn't convince the other principals of its necessity. But it's just a guess since that's about all we can do at this point.

On 4/18/2023 at 4:25 AM, Ninja-Bear said:

GM joe, I might be misremembering but when Trip was reintroduced (or to me introduced) and the argument was why do I need to upgrade to 6th, a point was made that you could already Trip, its just a renamed Throw.

Interesting! Especially since Espionage's only Throw maneuver is Martial Throw. It would make sense if that's what they were referring to. I wish MacDonald and Peterson had been a bit more rigorous about things like that, but oh well! It's only interesting to us Hero grognards, who increasingly resemble medieval monks poring over ancient manuscripts.

Continuing my Espionage! project, I noticed that under "Hand-to-Hand Combat" in Espionage (p 31) and Pulp Hero (p 58), the third paragraph reads:

Quote

Some of these Combat Maneuvers allow the character to do other things besides cause damage, such as grabbing something or tripping someone. Whenever a character is trying to perform an action not specifically listed, the GM should try to fit the action into one of the Combat Maneuvers already listed. The GM should apply different OCV and/or DCV modifiers based on the exact situation.

(Emphasis mine.)

Unlike grabbing, unfortunately there is no further mention of tripping anywhere in either text.

Given that the combat maneuvers are Punch, Killing Blow, Block, Dodge, Hold, Disarm, Grab, and Flying Tackle, my reading of the bolded sentence above is that the HERO crew used Grab for tripping, since they are saying that tripping is already covered by the existing combat maneuvers.

Then they must have decided to revisit the idea in Fantasy HERO 1e when, despite still having the separate Hold and Grab maneuvers, they decided to add a Trip maneuver. And then decided against it for Danger International, published just 5 months later.

And then we didn't see Trip again until 6e.

I just found it interesting and thought I'd mention it in case anyone has any thoughts or insight to share.

I'm trying to keep in mind what support was around for Espionage! at the time, what Champions was doing at the time, and the progression of the HERO System throughout the 1e to 3e era. Here's what I've put together after going through my HERO library last weekend (note that I'm not trying to include every HERO publication here; just everything related to Espionage! and then the key products for the rest of the HERO System):

Key Publication Dates:
    - Daisy wheel layout era begins
    - Saddle-stitched core rules era begins

    Champions 1e: July 1981 (San Mateo, CA Origins Game Fair)
    Island of Dr. Destroyer: 1981 (This and the following three were produced because game distributors wouldn't take Hero Games seriously until they had more products.)
    Escape from Stronghold: 1981
    Enemies: 1981
    Champions GM Screen: 1981
    
    - Boxed game era begins (game distributors upped the ante and required core games to come in boxes)

    - 2e era begins

    Champions 2e: 1982
    Champions II: 1982
    Espionage: 1983
    Border Crossing (Espionage! and MSPE): 1983
    Adventurers Club #1: Fall 1983 (Covert Action column by Steve Peterson w/ Police Academy Package Deals)
    Adventurers Club #2: Winter 1983 (Covert Action column by Doug Garrett w/ advice, archetypes, surveillance skill, and a Military Package Deal)
    
    The Armory, Volume 1 (Firebird for Espionage! and MSPE): 1983
    The Adventure of the Jade Jaguar (Blade for MSPE and Espionage!) April 1983
    Stormhaven (Blade for MSPE and Espionage!): November 1983
    

    - 2e era ends

    - Daisy wheel layout era ends
    - Professional layout and typesetting era begins

    - 3e era begins

    Justice, Inc (Espionage! rules re-themed to pulp, with a couple of new Skills and separate Skills for different forms of transportation; Psychic Powers; Weird Talents; Monsters; Wild Animals): May 1984
    Champions III: 1984
    Adventurers Club #3: Spring 1984 (Covert Action column by Doug Garrett w/ advice, Reffing the Disadvantages 1, Private Investigator Package Deal)
    Adventurers Club #4: Summer 1984 (Covert Action column by Doug Garrett w/ mission security, Reffing the Disadvantages 2, rules for non-combat movement, END and weapons, lifting).
 
    Champions 3e: November 1984
    Adventurers Club #5: Fall 1984 (Covert Action column by Doug Garrett w/ how to infiltrate, Reffing the Disadvantages 3)
    Adventurers Club #6: Winter 1984 (Covert Action column by Doug Garrett w/ performing illegal acts, Reffing the Disadvantages 4)
    
    Lands of Mystery: May 1985

    -Saddle-stitched core rules era ends
    -Boxed rulebook era ends

    Fantasy Hero: June 1985
    Danger International: November 1985
    
    -ICE 10-year Contract Begins January 1986

    Here There Be Tigers (Firebird for Danger International and Espionage!): 1986
    
    Adventurers Club #7: Summer 1986 (Covert Action column by Doug Garrett; post-Danger International publication; covers obtaining equipment)
    Champions 3e (Perfect-Bound): August 1986
    Super Agents: August 1986
    Robot Warriors: October 1986
    Adventurers Club #8: Fall 1986
    Adventurers Club #9: Spring 1987 (Covert Action column by Doug Garrett provides his thoughts on Package Deals from a Danger International perspective)
    Adventurers Club #10: Summer 1987
    Adventurers Club #11: Fall 1987
    Adventurers Club #12: 1988
    Adventurers Club #13: 1989
    Star Hero: February 1989

    - 3e Era Ends

    - 4e Era Begins

    Champions 4e: 1989

    
    Mugshots 2: Taking Care of Business (Flying Buffalo for MSPE and Espionage!): 1992

Progress as of today:

- Full text dumped from the official PDF to a text file.

- Full text (less tables, images, etc.) has been given one pass to fix the many, many OCR errors ("L" substituted for "1" and vice-versa, bits of text moved around randomly on pages with tables or images, random spaces and garbage characters inserted or substituted, etc.).

- All the tables from the first 26 pages of the original book have been recreated in semicolon-delimited format so they can be turned into tables as desired (most word processors can go from this format to tables with a couple of mouse clicks).

- Made a few random notes for later, such as that the final paragraph under the Languages skill should list Arabic, Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese, and Korean as the more difficult-to-learn languages (per multiple sources, including Rosetta Stone).

- I'm sort of dreading recreating the table on page 34, but I did choose this task after all!

Lots to go, but that's where I am on this right now. My free time is limited, but I'm hoping to make more progress next week.

As mentioned in this thread, I decided to try going back to the earliest non-Champions HERO System game, Espionage!, and work from there to find something that will work for how my group uses HERO System and which is easier for newbies to learn.

To avoid derailing that Champions 3e thread, I'll post updates here for those interested.

I'm just at the start of the process, but here's a basic overview of my plan so far:

1. Get Espionage! into a usable text format, with a stopover at the complete text which I plan to send to Jason in case he ever has a use for it.
2. Remove the flavor text, CIA info, and such that's specific to the spy genre, leaving behind a more generic RPG. (Espionage was clearly meant to be a generic modern heroic RPG that defaults to espionage, so that won't be too hard.)
3. Determine what (if anything) needs to be added from contemporary HERO publications.
4. Determine what (if anything) needs to be added from 3e publications.
5. Determine what (if anything) needs to be added from later HERO publications.
6. Integrate everything, editing and/or rewriting as needed.
7. Add any illustrations that may be needed (grenade scatter diagram, etc.)
8. Playtest.

My goal is to end up with a complete but minimalist RPG along the lines of Classic Traveller, B/X D&D, etc. I'll share my journey here for those interested.

(For those not interested, I'm sorry for cluttering up the board. This seemed the best place to put this.)

One of the views that carried over from my conservative years is my admiration of Teddy Roosevelt. Sure, he's not unproblematic (which president is?) but he did have his moments.