eepjr24

So just to put the rules I am looking at out there (6e):

"To use Incantations, a character must be able to speak freely and clearly — if he’s gagged or has his mouth full, he can’t activate and/or use the power. It’s also impossible to use the power while in a silence field (see Darkness). If he takes damage or is adversely affected by any power that requires an Attack Roll or MCV Attack Roll while he’s Incanting, the power doesn’t turn on or immediately turns off."

That said, I think what you want is the Choke maneuver:

"Besides being Grabbed, the victim of a Choke takes the listed NND damage and cannot speak or shout."

That would effectively prevent incantations as well as delivering a nice 2d6 NND if you want to keep doing it and can manage the attack roll.

There are some other ambiguous wording in Grab specifically about doing extra damage with hit locations, but they do in fact recommend using the called shot penalties. I think Choke is simpler.

- E

Edit: Somehow the Palindromedary snuck in an extra signature.

Please sir, can we have some more? 😃

- E

36 minutes ago, dsatow said:

We used to play 4e with the house rule, that levels less than 5 points couldn't be used for DCV and also assumes that the level was applicable for DCV (5 OCV only levels not withstanding).  The only exception to this is the 3 point level for martial arts which could be used to enhance martial arts DCV.

 

Given in 6th ed, I'd probably allow it even if they didn't have a sword in hand so long as the type of DCV (ranged vs. melee) matched.

In my games, I would (and do) not, since CSL's are already very useful for the points that are being spent. I actually agree with the cost increases in 6e, generally, since the skill levels at the overall level are basically an MP of skill levels and CSL's are adding to OCV or DCV directly for the weapons and types of attacks that the character is most likely to use or they would not be buying them.

- E

1 hour ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

"Allocate" and "Benefit from" are distinct.  I read that as meaning that a character cannot reassign where the bonus is going without appropriate weapon/power in use, not that they cannot benefit from it without appropriate weapon/power in active use. 

So wait, by your reading, I could have +2 with Swords. With sword in hand, I allocate my 2 levels to DCV. I switch to Bow and if someone attacks me hand to hand, I benefit from the DCV? 

That is also explicitly not legal. (6e1, pg 69):

Quote

A CSL (of any cost) applied to DCV is not Persistent (and cannot be made so except by buying the Skill Defense Maneuver at level IV; see 6E1 74); instead, the character must specify when he’s using the CSL (he cannot specify that he uses it “at all times”).

As a GM, you can read things however you want. But in the standard Hero rules environment, it's pretty clear.

- E

From a rules standpoint I think the book is pretty clear on this situation. 

First: (6e1, 69)

Quote

Unless the GM permits otherwise, a character can only allocate a CSL on a Phase when he uses an attack/power that CSL applies to. For example, if a character has a 3-point Combat Skill Level with his Blast, he can only assign that Level (for any purpose) on Phases when he uses his Blast.

So he is using a bow, he cannot assign sword levels at all that phase.

Second: (6e1, 69)

Quote

Characters can use one CSL costing 3 or more Character points against the same types of attacks (HTH or Ranged) for which the CSL could increase OCV. For example, a CSL with swordfighting could increase DCV in HTH Combat (against any type of HTH attack), but not in Ranged Combat.

So as far as using a sword CSL for DCV against a mace (or other HTH weapon), that is fine.

Edit: This is the same verbiage as 5e, in 4e the wording was more vague and could have been interpreted either way.

- E

1 hour ago, Tech said:

Christopher...  "The chaos power is added to whatever attack is used at an opponent." 

 

Chaos is a special effect so it doesn't matter, only giving reason for the power. The focus of my request: the power adds to whatever damage is done to an opponent. It is not a side effect causing damage to the user. It adds a little more damage to whomever gets hit by any attack made by the attacker, whether ranged or HTH. The additional damage is random whether it's a NND or Drain.

Sounds like UBO on a multipower to me. 

- E

I generally use Dispel for these types of powers, but it does depend on how you define them. I require paralyzation spells (and most other lingering effects) to take the "Can Be Dispelled" limitation unless they are very special or cast by beings of god like power. That helps with the conundrum on lingering instant powers. Same with transform on most transform spells, dispel must be one of the conditions that allow it to be reversed (now you may not have a Dispel with enough dice, but that is a different problem).

So this would be some sort of dispel with expanded effects (Blast, RKA, Flash, Transform, Entangle) for +1 1/4 would be 6.75 AP per die. You might have to switch out Drain for Entangle if you define paralysis that way. So basically it is going to be some flavor of that. If you want something that is absolute, take the campaign AP max for attack powers and divide by 3, make the dispel Standard Effect and give it that number of dice (so 100 AP would be 33 d6). Or if you go the "Transform to person without negative conditions", just use the max Body allowed. Either of these is going to be expensive, which is a problem that I often run into converting D&D spells to FH in a level appropriate point range.

- E

41 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

Why not do a Drain that does Stun and Body simultaneously?  It is slightly more lethal than the OP power suggestion but is the simplest way by RAW.

I like this better than my original alternatives. Like so:

3d6 Stun Drain (30 AP) Plus Naked Expanded Effect (+1/2) on 2d6 to add Body (10 AP), 40 AP total. Again, I would hand wave the minor differences in the way they work (technically this would always do 1 Body minimum unlike the original request which would do 3 stun and 0 body if you roll three ones).

- E

3d6 Blast AVAD (Power Defense)? Alternatively you could add a -1/2 limitation that the Body portion is all or nothing if the taking Body part is supposed to work that way for this power.

Or if you are specifically looking to use the return mechanics of Drain, then do a Stun Drain with a linked Body Drain. As a GM I would probably tell you to buy it at 2d6 Body for every 3d6 of Stun drain and then just count the Body dice of the Stun Drain (math is not exact but it is close enough for me for the utility).

Or link a AVAD Blast, Body Only (-1/2) for the same dice as the Drain. I think the price works out close to the 3/2 scheme above. 

- E

Nice story line.

23 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

I agree completely, which is why I will continue to fuss and gripe until "luck," which plays _zero_ part in this power, is removed completely.  Call it "invisible armor" or "big girl panties" or "I want the stylish and rugged charm of not needing or wanting armor,  but I also definitely want me some armor." 

 

"oh, but it so perfectly models not getting hit in spite of your opponent flat-out hitting you." 

 

Well so does any other armor, if that's how you want to define it.   Granted, I have issues with that definition (make Combat Luck a DCV boost, for Pete's sake: then you can actually model" well how about that! You didn't actually hit me" without sticking in the craw of the guy who vey clearly hit you.), but it'd be a Hell if a lot easier to ignore if it wasn't being called "Luck (a thing that actually exists in the game)" without remotely _being_ Luck. 

<shrug> I think you are quibbling over word usage a little bit here. The actual power is:

Quote

Combat Luck: Resistant Protection (3 PD/3 ED), Hardened (+¼), Impenetrable (+¼) (13 Active Points); Luck-Based (encompasses all the restrictions described in the text; -¾), Nonpersistent (-¼). Total cost: 6 points.

So, it is based on luck explicitly in the power. It does not work if you are not aware (asleep, surprised, etc.), purposefully accepting taking damage (not taking an action that would prevent harm, taking an action that will be reasonably likely to cause harm, move by, move through), etc. 

The players that take it in my experience (mostly in dark champions type settings) are the ones who can't or don't wear complete armor for other reasons. Sometimes it is movement related, sometimes it does not fit the characters theme, etc. I don't find it to be abused, although I do let players know if they get into areas I consider invulnerable that this will mean that others on their team could be in danger from collateral damage as bigger guns are brought to try to stop you...

But if the name bothers you that much, just call it something else. Combat Fortune or Fate Armor or Chance Bulwark.

- E

I like him. But he seems so unaffected by the ghouls and such that I would have either bought him a higher PRE or some presence defense.

- E

On 2/17/2019 at 3:09 PM, RDU Neil said:

 

I wasn't thinking any kind of particular level, but this did make me think... just like you can buy a CSL with only one maneuver... and if MA is considered a maneuver... is this a work around? I mean, I just read the rules again, and it seems that they (the rules) bend over backward to allow Multiple Attacks, but require all kinds of unique caveats (like, MA is a maneuver, but unlike other maneuvers, you can't buy CSLs with this maneuver). Kind of maddening.

And granted, I think most of these are intended to ameliorate most of the abuses of a super with lots of different attack powers. In Heroic games, where this grew out of "Double Shot" and applied only to firing guns (and only specific guns) multiple times... it hardly seems a concern. A character could have +3 w/Pistols (9pts) only when doing a Multiple Attack... worth reducing it down to 2 points apiece... and now we are back to PSL level cost to offset negative OCV modifier. Heck... just buy flat out 2 pt CLS with your automatic pistol, get +3 OCV for six points at all times which just helps out with Mult Att as well. 

 

All those pre-emptive "you can't do a normal thing in this particular case" really bug me. Mult Att is either a maneuver that plays by the baseline rules for maneuvers, or it isn't. Especially in this case where the pages of unique rulings don't really do much in the end.

Buying CSL's with maneuvers is allowed, buying them with Multiple Attack is not. That does not seem difficult to me. I think the reasoning here is to prevent both what you mention (supers with tons of powers) and people buying generic levels with multiple attack and then using them to boost everything they do in a round (shoot a couple people with a pistol, toss a grenade at a hardened position, grab a convenient bystander for a hostage and kick through the door they are standing next to so they can duck in next phase). Remember, CSL's at the 3 point level can do OCV, DCV or Damage. Personally, I think the limitation is fine, there is an easy way to achieve the results you seem to be craving, you just have to pay more points for the versatility. YMMV, and you can always house rule whatever you like in your games.

- E

On 2/17/2019 at 12:10 PM, Christopher said:

Then you just buy CSL/OC, possibly with Limitations. I am pretty confident I could do the math to derive PSL from OCV.

 

The details vary a bit, but the base idea is the same.

I was not trying to say that you we could not figure out how to do it. I meant that the original poster had said OCV with guns has a hard limit, I assumed that limit applied to CSL's that raise OCV as well, otherwise he would just buy those. Especially since he specifically called out the campaign guidance that bullets traveled at a set speed and thus could not exceed the cap.

- E

Duke:

I agree with just about everything you said in the two posts above. The minor exceptions are that I have met more than one of the min-maxers in my 30+ years of Hero play (maybe 4?) and I have met more than one person who actually enjoys the math (sometimes, that's even me). I don't waste play time figuring stuff out, though, I just am not always able to play or even have a campaign to design for, so I do numbers exercises. Usually not KA versus blast kind of stuff, though, more "how many doublings of range would it take me to hit the moon" or "just exactly how fast is a SR-71 Blackbird in Hero terms" or "let me solve whatever math dilemma has been posted on the boards". ?

- E

On 2/15/2019 at 11:05 AM, RDU Neil said:

Multiple attacks, especially if you buy levels to offset the MA penalties.  Quick, clean, interpreting maneuvers already in the game to cover various combat maneuvers you see in the source material.

I think levels are in the same boat as other OCV increasing things, correct? Unless you meant PSL's, which can't be use for maneuvers (of which multiple attack is one).

6e1, 84:

Quote

Nor can he buy OPSLs to counteract the standard OCV penalty imposed by a Combat Maneuver (such as the -3 OCV for a Grab By)

I was going to bring up the point that the setting has a good bit to do with how "off the shelf" weaponry matters or does not. For example, in Killer Shrikes Here There Be Monsters setting, pretty much anyone can buy standard handguns, rifles, shotguns, etc. Truly special weapons require a special pool that costs more than an standard equipment pool. So if you want a Desert Eagle, you can certainly get one whether you are a Faith healer, an ex-Seal or a ex-junkie who sees ghosts. If you want something fully automatic that is going to cost points since it is military grade. It levels the playing field somewhat without taking away the "punch" from the mercenary who has an under-mount grenade launcher. 

Another example for me is that mages can often use the "free" foci of others to damage or otherwise hinder them. An entangle spell who SFX is melding the metal joints of armor. NND fire spells based on heating metal weapons and armor. You can also get more nuanced in the real powers of some things like armor. Plate Armor is very good PD, but honestly not that great for preventing energy transfers of the non-kinetic variety. Leather is better, but still not so good against all. 

I think you just need to decide how things are going to work in your setting and then design it to work that way. If wizards are of equal power, figure out why that is. If supers carry guns or don't figure out why that is. Laws? Past events? (guns have been taken from supers and used against normals?)  Or just that they are too variable in outcome, if someone has proper defenses they do little to nothing but if they don't, it kills them. (bad result in some campaigns)

- E

In the forum topic below, someone is wondering if there is a list of specific effects you can force with an ability roll affecting power. I don't believe there is (I looked in 6e 1 and 2 and APG 1 and 2 but easily could have missed something). The ones I came up with were pretty common and basic.

https://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/97881-shooting-with-intent-to-miss/?tab=comments#comment-2697009

So if there is a more comprehensive list, where might we find it? And if not, this might be something to add to your growing list of things you can cover in the ever elusive APG 3. =P

- E

10 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

Right.  I understand the idea of penalties to rolls that Change Environment generates.  What is less clearly defined is what type of additional effects you can inflict.  Such as DEX roll or fall down or STR roll or get pushed back.

 

There doesn't seem to be a defined list.  Would obfuscating fog be just a -4 PER roll or would it be -4 PER roll or you're unable to see until your next phase?

There is not a comprehensive list that I know of. APG 1 has some interesting effects, but only related to ability rolls for EGO, otherwise they are not related to ability rolls specifically.

I'll post something in the Rules forum, Steve might be interested in adding this type of examples to his ongoing list of things to write about if there ever is an APG 3.

- E

I am not going to offer a specific way to handle this, other than saying it is probably a +0 or -1/4 limitation. But the way I would work into the value is to more carefully define what you mean when you say "a chance to burn out but pretty rare". Is this a equal probability no matter what? Or is it more likely if the caster uses it 2 or more times in a day? Or if all three moons are in the sky? Or if they are lower on mana? Are there other factors that can reduce the chance of burnout (take an extra phase to cast, use rarer ingredients, expend 2x end, voluntarily take a side effect, location, ceremonial dress, fasting, etc.). As you work through the various ins and outs you will get a feel for how to model it and cost it, in my experience. 

- E

4 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

Despite the pretty lengthy write-up of Change Environment I was never very clear on exactly what you could do with those stat roll penalties other than knocking someone down.  Are there other options?

Sure. In the Fantasy setting, confusion and fear type spells are common, those affect INT and PRE rolls, respectively. Anything that requires those rolls (INT: magic, deduction, many knowledge skills, PRE: resisting presence attacks) is affected. I have seen it used by mentalists to knock down resistance to suggestions and there are certainly applications with CON for poisons, mental attacks based on CON, etc. Dex and Perception are probably the two most common things I see affected by CE, second would be those designed specifically to trigger a PC or NPC vulnerability or other complication. 

- E

7 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Seriously, compare to other existing structures.  I can have two different powers that I can choose between for 1.2 times the price (Multipower).  Roughly a +¼ advantage, to have them both go off, but at different times.  This is a power that goes off, two different powers, but automatically yet dependent on the target.  It looks like a ½ advantage from where I'm sitting.  Double the powers, but at half efficiency.

Okay. Existing structure there is a way to do what you want. It's called Multiple Attack. Simply pay the -2 OCV per attack after the first and you have your power built. If you want it to be random, I'd throw in some limitations around that, based on the amount of variation in effect with a baseline of -1/4 (worst case you still have a 1 in 6 chance of getting the effect you want). You probably would add -1/2 Unified Power to the whole set of powers. Another -1/2 if you added that each target could only be affected by a single power. 

So for each 10 points of effect (assuming 6 powers) you would pay 60/2.25 = 27 or less real points. Sounds like a bargain for me given the potential usefulness. I would recommend some OCV levels with the unified powers, though.

To me, what you have is a clear way to do things in the system that you see as over priced for the result. If this is your game, build the structure you want, balance the points and move on. 

- E

48 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

 Alas, my players never wanted to move up (not completely, anyway, so we crib here and there from newer stuff), citing the "size of the book"  (funny looking back from this point of view, isn't it?  :lol:). 

I have gotten used to this and just don't show them the books for the most part. I mean, they are certainly welcome to read them, borrow them, buy their own copies, etc, but for the most part I just create things for them as needed for their characters after they describe to me what they want. No real power gamers in the group, 1 who this is her first RPG, 1 who has played D&D once, a couple D&D regulars and a couple who have played a variety of things (one has been in different Hero campaigns of mine but does not like all the math so he just tells me what he wants).

Works for me, but I also have the time to spend doing it generally when I am on the road for work, since we only meet once a month.

- E

I have played since 87 or so (Champs 1-3, Danger Intl, Justice Inc) and run games in versions 3-6. Currently running an MHI-like game with cribs from Killer Shrikes Here There Be Monsters as well as bits and pieces from popular TV, movies, books and my imagination. I did buy MHI but I am one of those weirdo's who likes to customize things too much to run straight from the book for the most part. There are certainly some good pieces in there, and I use the HS6e Equipment Guide, a few bits from the APG's, and a thing or two from the Dark Champions templates.

- E

You could also go with something like a single hex Change Environment that gives -3 to -5 Dex ("Dance boy, DANCE!") which would force a Dex roll to not fall down. This would get you 1/2 DCV for prone if they fail.  Not exactly what you asked for but another option for reducing DCV.

- E