eepjr24

Hugh:
 
With all sincerity and all respect, you know I _love_ discussing just about anything with you. 
 
But we are not going to be able too discuss this.  Our experiences with the game have been too different.  You can't accept, for whatever reason; presumably your own experience with the game, that there are a shocking number of us who play this game and don't give a rat's runny crap about "what the math says" in terms of X better than Y because two steps from now, and when you factor in-- and on and on.  If I got my joy from that--  well, I got my first RPG (Traveller) at a book store.  They had calculus text books, too.  I didn't leave with one of those, though. 
 
I am not math ignorant.  I don't even find math particularly difficult.  But fun?  As far as fun, I'd put it somewhere around having a colonoscopy done with a golf umbrella that had to be opened before extraction.  I spend, like a lot of other people, the best part of my working day juggling numbers, running math, etc.  And the reason I get _paid_ to do it is because it is not fun, which makes it hard to find volunteers. 
 
When I have a bit of time to relax, you can damned well bet "doing math" isn't on my list of things I might do. 
 
And I'm not alone in that.  I'm not even a minority in that.  According to stories you stumble across now and again on the news and on the net, I live in a country _dominated_ by a general dislike of recreational math (why do you think the most common complaint against HERO is "it's so....  Mathy..."?) 
 
Do I ignore the math?  No.  It has to be tracked so you can get your totals or what-have-you.  It has to be figured so when a proposed Limitation or Advantage pops up you can get a good idea just how much discount or additional charge is being suggested; all that "let's get our concepts down on paper and start the game" stuff. 
 
Am I going to diddle around with it so I can see which power has the best chance of inflicting an extra pip of BODY every four uses?  Frack no; I ain't. 
 
 
And there are those of you to whom that is part of the fun, or in some sense of "more fair" becomes important, and is broached with introductions that suggest your lack of understanding of how a large number of us play concept-first: things like "but you'll be hobbled against the other players" or "voluntarily being the least powerful at the table" or "outclassed by your teammates..." 
 
You don't seem to really appreciate that this is not happening because _none_ of us are interested in points effectiveness, splitting and round overs, squeezing out another pip every seventh shot, making sure we spend every single character point we are allotted, spiking up dead to the campaign limits, or any of that other "but the math is the best part!" stuff.  None of us.  Not one single player. 
 
You can't get your heads around that any more than we can understand why the hell you _would_ waste all your play time trying to figure it all out. 
 
In short: it's not you.  It's not us, either.  It's the simple fact that we are so far away from each other (semi-formal plural, of course, meaning the two "camps" of play style) that we can't understand each other enough to discuss what the rules "need" or the "proper use" of a mechanic or the "perfection" of a system or even the validity of a character construct in any meaningful way. 
 

There is not a comprehensive list that I know of. APG 1 has some interesting effects, but only related to ability rolls for EGO, otherwise they are not related to ability rolls specifically.
 
I'll post something in the Rules forum, Steve might be interested in adding this type of examples to his ongoing list of things to write about if there ever is an APG 3.
 
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I was going to bring up the point that the setting has a good bit to do with how "off the shelf" weaponry matters or does not. For example, in Killer Shrikes Here There Be Monsters setting, pretty much anyone can buy standard handguns, rifles, shotguns, etc. Truly special weapons require a special pool that costs more than an standard equipment pool. So if you want a Desert Eagle, you can certainly get one whether you are a Faith healer, an ex-Seal or a ex-junkie who sees ghosts. If you want something fully automatic that is going to cost points since it is military grade. It levels the playing field somewhat without taking away the "punch" from the mercenary who has an under-mount grenade launcher. 
 
Another example for me is that mages can often use the "free" foci of others to damage or otherwise hinder them. An entangle spell who SFX is melding the metal joints of armor. NND fire spells based on heating metal weapons and armor. You can also get more nuanced in the real powers of some things like armor. Plate Armor is very good PD, but honestly not that great for preventing energy transfers of the non-kinetic variety. Leather is better, but still not so good against all. 
 
I think you just need to decide how things are going to work in your setting and then design it to work that way. If wizards are of equal power, figure out why that is. If supers carry guns or don't figure out why that is. Laws? Past events? (guns have been taken from supers and used against normals?)  Or just that they are too variable in outcome, if someone has proper defenses they do little to nothing but if they don't, it kills them. (bad result in some campaigns)
 
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Only in the D&D paradigm.  There are plenty stories where welders of magic are not averse to wielding swords...

I have gotten used to this and just don't show them the books for the most part. I mean, they are certainly welcome to read them, borrow them, buy their own copies, etc, but for the most part I just create things for them as needed for their characters after they describe to me what they want. No real power gamers in the group, 1 who this is her first RPG, 1 who has played D&D once, a couple D&D regulars and a couple who have played a variety of things (one has been in different Hero campaigns of mine but does not like all the math so he just tells me what he wants).
 
Works for me, but I also have the time to spend doing it generally when I am on the road for work, since we only meet once a month.
 
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You could also go with something like a single hex Change Environment that gives -3 to -5 Dex ("Dance boy, DANCE!") which would force a Dex roll to not fall down. This would get you 1/2 DCV for prone if they fail.  Not exactly what you asked for but another option for reducing DCV.
 
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Currently using 6e for Fantasy Hero with some carry-overs from 4e that I thought were handled better (Encumbrance, Weapon & Armor charts).
 
Getting used to the decoupling of Primary stats from Figured stats was a bit of a mind blower.  Now that I've gotten used to it I can see that it allows for more character customization while eliminating the sell-back exploits of earlier editions.

You could also go with something like a single hex Change Environment that gives -3 to -5 Dex ("Dance boy, DANCE!") which would force a Dex roll to not fall down. This would get you 1/2 DCV for prone if they fail.  Not exactly what you asked for but another option for reducing DCV.
 
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Dammit, missed the point that it could be any of them in the area effect...
 
I would therefore do it as no concious control, area effect, variable effect and usable by others.  It still comes to a chunk of points but then should it not, as you hit a whole bunch of people with a number of different effects over a period of time??

I guess that is just a difference in game style. For the most part I find that granting 15 points of power to everyone on a planet is actually a pretty significant ability. YMMV. I mean, for that cost I could make everyone on a planet immortal and immune to terrestrial disease and poisons.

No, on several fronts.
 
1. They could be off the planet.
2. No matter what modifiers you add as far as you can tell you need to have LOS to the recipient no matter what:
       "The Range Modifier applies to the granting of UOO powers at Range, and the grantor must have Line Of Sight to the Recipient to grant him a power at Range."
So that means you would also need a targeting sense with sufficient offsets for the perception modifiers and the ability to perceive through or around the planet to grant the power to them. 
3. Indirect has no real effect as far as I can see, as changing either the path or source of the power does not change the ability to perceive the recipient.
 
If you removed indirect and added in a sense that could perceive the recipient (probably with megascale, although that does require special GM permission) you could probably make it work. But i would probably go with something like MindScan instead, because the perception roll to find a person on a planet with a megascaled penetrative sense even with several levels of rapid sense could get really expensive (depends on how realistic your GM wants to be, but if they say you could look at 10 people in a second normally, you would need 10 levels of rapid to make a perception check to find a single person in a second. You still need to apply range modifiers, etc.)

I will continue to add it to characters that it is appropriate for, although it will be one of the ones that is likely a 0 point complication. Your point about it being the norm in some campaigns is valid, and in those I just set it as a baseline unless you choose consciously to not take it (zero points either way). But you could then take Bloodthirsty or Vengeful or perhaps even Berserk when those would not be very appropriate with a CvK.
 
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As a GM I play it as not being a benefit to have a Secret ID or a Public ID with a Hunted. Given that you have a Secret ID and a Hunted, you have greatly limited the times when the Hunted can come into play (IE when you are in costume) or set yourself up for your secret to be exposed but the hunter. Either way it is more detrimental than just having no complication except the Hunted where they could show up off screen sometimes or not be able to blackmail you with your identity.
 
I personally played a few characters with Secret ID but almost never with Public ID. I personally tend to prefer supporting roles and thus play toward that unless I am consciously trying to break that mold for some reason.
 
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Something he has to actively focus on doing:  (Total: 53 Active Cost, 30 Real Cost) Regeneration (3 BODY per Turn), Can Heal Limbs (53 Active Points); Does Not Work On Some Damage ([Rare attack]; -1/4), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) (Real Cost: 30)
 
How to build it depends on exactly what you mean by "actively focus on it." The Nonpersistant Limitation keeps it from happening when unconscious, and "active focus" might be interpreted in a number of ways; as for example Costs END. You would also use Concentration or maybe Extra TIme. Or this,
 
Something he has to actively focus on doing:  (Total: 53 Active Cost, 30 Real Cost) Regeneration (3 BODY per Turn), Can Heal Limbs (53 Active Points); Does Not Work On Some Damage ([Rare attack]; -1/4), Nonpersistent (-1/4), 64 clips of 1 Charge (-1/4) (Real Cost: 30)
 
Charges with "clips" means that for each use, it's necessary to spend a full phase (or half phase with a Fastdraw roll) to "change clips" i.e. in this case to "actively focus" on the ability.
 
Lucius Alexander
 
The palindromedary says we hope 64 uses of a 3 pt Regeneration is enough for anyone......

Like a lot of these discussions lately (not meaning specifically about limitations, just those that seem to generate a lot of heat and people taking strong sides) I don't really understand what all the fuss is about. If you prefer narrative descriptions and the GM assigning a single value for the sum of the limitations, play it that way. If you prefer exact math and each limitation spelled out, play it that way. Neither is intrinsically "better" for all cases and all people, the game is not going to get a new version in a few months that will disallow one or the other. It makes more sense for people to speak to the situations where they see one or the other as advantageous and list things others can gain from one style of play or the other. Personally, I like the narrative descriptions because it encourages variety. But in the background I like having the rules there to help me arrive at what would be the best value, using my own judgement when needed to override those general guiding principles.
 
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Like a lot of these discussions lately (not meaning specifically about limitations, just those that seem to generate a lot of heat and people taking strong sides) I don't really understand what all the fuss is about. If you prefer narrative descriptions and the GM assigning a single value for the sum of the limitations, play it that way. If you prefer exact math and each limitation spelled out, play it that way. Neither is intrinsically "better" for all cases and all people, the game is not going to get a new version in a few months that will disallow one or the other. It makes more sense for people to speak to the situations where they see one or the other as advantageous and list things others can gain from one style of play or the other. Personally, I like the narrative descriptions because it encourages variety. But in the background I like having the rules there to help me arrive at what would be the best value, using my own judgement when needed to override those general guiding principles.
 
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Like a lot of these discussions lately (not meaning specifically about limitations, just those that seem to generate a lot of heat and people taking strong sides) I don't really understand what all the fuss is about. If you prefer narrative descriptions and the GM assigning a single value for the sum of the limitations, play it that way. If you prefer exact math and each limitation spelled out, play it that way. Neither is intrinsically "better" for all cases and all people, the game is not going to get a new version in a few months that will disallow one or the other. It makes more sense for people to speak to the situations where they see one or the other as advantageous and list things others can gain from one style of play or the other. Personally, I like the narrative descriptions because it encourages variety. But in the background I like having the rules there to help me arrive at what would be the best value, using my own judgement when needed to override those general guiding principles.
 
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I considered (and still do) Ultimate Martial Artist to be compulsory for 4th Edition. My 4th Edition kit that I took to every session away from home was the slim George Perez  cover Hero System #500 rulebook, UMA, and the Bestiary.
 

Second to the above. Complex MP's (generally those with more than one flex slot) I use the same rules as suggested above, you get some time to decide and then I move on. This is the same rules that i use for VPP's that can be changed in combat. If it is a consistent problem with a player who refuses to pre-calculate oft used combinations, I use something like https://e.ggtimer.com/ and give them 30 seconds or a minute. At first it seems harsh, but most people get the point pretty quickly, figure out their common scenarios and I drop the timer.
 
If the player has trouble with the math, I have zero problems building it out for them or giving them an Excel sheet that allows them to do it themselves pretty easily (yes, it's custom per MP, but not that hard to do). I do find that some people just don't like the math aspects and that's fine since I have been doing this long enough that it's trivial now.
 
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Second to the above. Complex MP's (generally those with more than one flex slot) I use the same rules as suggested above, you get some time to decide and then I move on. This is the same rules that i use for VPP's that can be changed in combat. If it is a consistent problem with a player who refuses to pre-calculate oft used combinations, I use something like https://e.ggtimer.com/ and give them 30 seconds or a minute. At first it seems harsh, but most people get the point pretty quickly, figure out their common scenarios and I drop the timer.
 
If the player has trouble with the math, I have zero problems building it out for them or giving them an Excel sheet that allows them to do it themselves pretty easily (yes, it's custom per MP, but not that hard to do). I do find that some people just don't like the math aspects and that's fine since I have been doing this long enough that it's trivial now.
 
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The effect of the CE power is "character must make a DEX roll to avoid dropping/losing a focus".  That targets the character, not the focus.  The special effect, which in this case might be that the strap breaks, is separate from the mechanical effect.  That's just part of the divorcing of SFX from mechanical effect which is a fundamental of the Hero rules. The sfx of "it is strapped securely under my arm" has no mechanical advantage or drawback compared to "I always carry it in my hand" - unless the mechanics are different (e.g. it is an OIF instead of an OAF).
 
 
You are taking one comment on an Inaccessible focus out of context.  Let's also note that:
 
 
Nothing says that the focus is less susceptible to immediate removal if the character is not in combat.  If it is less susceptible to removal than an Accessible focus, then the lower limitation applies, just like 13 charges is more than 12, so you get the "13 - 16" limitation, not the "9 - 12 limitation".  Once the ability is less limited than Accessible, it gets the lower limitation. 
 
So, if your holstered gun requires more than a simple Grab or thrown rock to knock it away from you, it is not accessible.  I'd allow the holster to give you the STR roll to resist the disarm (which is the standard for an OAF), but that's about as much advantage as the hlster can provide without dropping out of "accessible" (outside my own modifier above, that I'll make that "Always O Sometimes A F" a -3/4 limitation).
 
This is Hero.  If the SFX say the focus is not as readily removed as an Accessible Focus, then Accessible Focus is not the appropriate mechanic for those SFX.  If your vision of the focus used by your character is that it's not that easy to take away his gun, that vision needs to be realized by not making his gun an accessible focus.

So female characters who carry purses in your games have to pay points for the retention/shoulder straps, then (lest there be a double-standard).  Got it.
 
And yes, I would consider that line of thinking too onerous to niggle with in a superheroic game.  But if that's how you like it in your game, that's wonderful for you!

My choice of 100m as the hex size was completely arbitrary. I apologize for not pointing that out. For the +1 Megascale option you can select any set value of greater than 1m and less than or equal to 1km. Play with it till you get what you like.
 
For a 20 meter wide hole that is 150m deep you are going to probably use AOE Line for a 16m by 16m line (using the optional doubling of width or height instead of length and figuring the the approximate area of 20m circle to be the same as the area of a 17.2m square) by 150m. That is a +2 3/4 AOE Advantage, without megascale.
 
With megascale 1m = 20m (+1) you would buy a line that is 8m long (+1/4) pointed straight down only, no range, hole in the middle, etc. At 14d6 no explosion that would net you a hole 20m wide and 160m deep, which is pretty close. As a GM if you wanted to call it 150 I would be fine. Saves you 1 1/2 in advantages and really is a better model IMO.
 
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Per 6E2 102, when a character uses an HA with Advantages that directly affect the damage he does, you use the HA as the base attack and have STR add damage according to the rules on 6E2 96-102. Thus, the STR added is adjusted to take into account the Advantages on the HA. So your example — 20 STR applied to HA +4d6 with +1 worth of Advantages — is correct:  the character described does 6d6 Normal Damage with Penetrating (x2).
 
The issue becomes a little trickier when a character has one or more additional forms of HA that could add into the attack, and which either don’t have the Advantage(s) on the first HA, or have different Advantages. (Note:  I keep thinking that I’ve written about this before, but if so I can’t find it. I reserve my right to change my answer if necessary. ) First, of course, the GM has to determine whether the two HAs can both work together. The default answer is that two different HAs can work together (but the character only adds his STR once to the overall damage, not to each HA individually). However, the GM is well within his rights to rule otherwise if the two HAs don’t seem “compatible” based on common sense, dramatic sense, special effects, and other considerations. Taking your example above (a “Speed-Punch” and a Club), some GMs might rule that they’re compatible, while other GMs might not — I can see arguments both ways.
 
If the two HAs are compatible, this raises the (potentially extremely complicated) issue of which Advantages apply and how you calculate the overall damage. I could easily spend the rest of the afternoon writing about all the possible combinations and now things play out, and frankly, even as much as I love the HERO System I have better ways to spend my Labor Day afternoon.  I will consider this issue further and write about it in APG3, but in the meantime the best advice I can provide is for the GM to use his best judgment to make PCs fun to play without unbalancing the campaign.

I don't think you need tunneling at all.

14d6 Blast, AoE: 28m Explosion (+1/2), Megascale, 1m = 100m (+1), Hole in the Middle (+1/4) [192 Active] No Range (-1/2), Only affects ground level and below (-1), Standard effect (-0) [77 Real Points]
 
That would destroy all of the ground around the character for 200 meters outward and create a hole approximately (200*.9)+(200*.8)+(200*.7)+(200*.6)+(200*.5)+(200*.4)+(200*.3)+(200*.2)+(200*.1) = 900 meters deep. From there it would roughly be bowl shaped and end about  2 kilometers away from the player. Above figures are based on a cubic meter of dirt having 4 PD and 10 Body. The hole would be smaller in diameter and depth in a city, I would probably figure it at 5 PD and 14 or 15 Body. That would reduce the hole to about 420 meters deep and 1.2 kilometers wide. Of course, you still need to figure out the volume that was above the hole to figure out how filled it will become and how much damage people will take from either the fall or the buildings toppling on them (even if they are fliers they need to dodge falling sky scrapers). But that's just some light 3D geometry. ?
 
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