Lucius

So at this point I want to ask: What can Martial Maneuvers (as presently constituted) do that Basic Maneuvers cannot? I propose No Normal Defense Strike (yes, Choke does NND but it's a Grab, not a strike) Barehanded Killing Flash "Exert" (extra STR for specialized purposes) Velocity Damage with Impunity (Move-by and Move-Through inflict damage on the attacker.) Am I missing anything? Lucius Alexander I'm not missing a palindromedary, here it is

That's what I thought I was doing.... Lucius Alexander That's what the palindromedary thinks I'm doing

They are still Skills that someone knows. It is in the nature of Skills to only work in certain circumstances. One cannot Climb or Ride if there is nothing appropriate around to be climbed or ridden, for example. Lucius Alexander Modifying this post by adding a palindromedary tagline

Martial Arts if definitely very "point efficient." In fact, it gets such good "bang for the buck" that it's become practically mandatory for any combat oriented character to invest in Martial Arts. Ultimate Martial Artists has the system for creating Martial Arts Maneuvers, which involves positive and negative point costs for the various "elements" that make up the Maneuver in game terms. Even as it stands that system can be used - and I have used it - to create things such as certain of the arcane effects of the discipline of wizardry, or this for a haglike personification of entropy: Deadly Touch Maneuver OCV DCV Notes 4 Hands like Claws -2 +0 HKA 3d6 +1 4 Freezing Touch (Defense is Life Support: Cold, or Heat, Cold, or Temperature Control Powers) -1 +1 3d6 NND 4 Shreds of Darkness -1 -1 Flash 6d6 Notes: The Crone appears to rip ragged pieces of darkness out of the air and throw them onto the victim, obscuring sight. 4 Shard of silence -1 -1 Flash 6d6 Notes: The Crone appears to thrust something invisible at the victim's head 4 Reversal -1 -2 45 STR to Escape; Grab Two Limbs 8 +2 HTH Damage Class(es) I have considered playing around with expanding the system to include new effects, perhaps even generalizing it to cover the entire set of all Powers. But. I have a concern that what THAT would do, would be to in effect make just about everything cheaper and instead of the situation where every combat oriented character takes Martial Arts, you end up with absolutely every character wanting to take Universal Arts because it's an unbelievably good deal. Or, even worse, by tinkering with costs this way, we can end up unbalancing things. Not that that's going to stop anyone from playing around with the ideas, nor should it. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary is very concerned about balance - you can tell by looking at it

No. There is a zero cost non-Martial maneuver called "Trip." It does part of what Throw does. It puts a target on the ground and if they were moving does velocity damage. Otherwise, it doesn't do damage. The Trigger condition is the Trip itself, to create an attack that both puts the foe on the ground (or for a flying enemy, temporarily "disorients" them) AND hurts them. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary says that's a heavy trip

Throw: (Total: 14 Active Cost, 10 Real Cost) +2 with Trip (Real Cost: 4) <b>plus</b> Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset, Trigger can expire (it has a time limit), Misfire; +1/4) for up to 40 Active Points of Up to 8 DC of direct damage strike (10 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Inaccurate (1/2 OCV; -1/4) (Real Cost: 6) Biggest difference between Trip and Martial Throw is that Trip does not inherently do damage except for velocity damage. Misfire means the Thrower might fall too, or instead (say, on a roll of 18) Lucius Alexander The palindromedary says we just wanted to throw that out there

Grabs and Escapes aren't that hard. Exert Force: (Total: 30 Active Cost, 8 Real Cost) +20 STR, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (30 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -2 worth of Limitations; Such as: only for holding on after Grab, only for Disarm, only to Escape, only to resist Disarm....; -1), Restrainable (-1/2), Conditional Power Must have 2 pt Combat Skill Level with relevant maneuver, or else 2 pt "technique familiarity" (-1/2), Real Martial Arts (-1/4), Required Hands One-And-A-Half-Handed (-1/4), Unified Power (Unified with basic STR; -1/4) (Real Cost: 8) Lucius Alexander The palindromedary asks, how does that grab you?

I apologize if this has been posted, I don't remember seeing it: I stumbled across it here http://www.verycutegm.com/?p=435 Lucius Alexander I wish I could lie back and let the palindromedary do all the work

Having spent some time at RPG net lately, let me modify that: A city where most of the population get 100% of their meals from McDonalds, much of the rest from a huge number of struggling mom-and-pop restaurants....and then most who don't fall into those categories are out there trying to run their own small farms making their own meals starting from dirt. And very few see the value in a supermarket. Lucius Alexander I'm accustomed to very few seeing the value in a palindromedary.

Block/Counterstrike: (Total: 14 Active Cost, 10 Real Cost) +2 with Block (Real Cost: 4) <b>plus</b> Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset, Trigger can expire (it has a time limit), Misfire; +1/4) for up to 40 Active Points of Up to 8 DC of direct damage no range strike (10 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Inaccurate (1/2 OCV; -1/4) (Real Cost: 6) I envision this applying to STR, Hand to Hand damage, melee weapons, and the like. Misfire means if there are more than one foe in hand to hand range, the martial artist may reflexively strike someone not the intended target. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary thinks counterstrike sounds like a labor problem at the deli.

And I once built negative cost Martial Arts that were worse than standard maneuvers. I've used them on characters my players encountered too. But that's another story. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary says it's a story that involves the Zornwil Effect too....

I don't think our little thought experiments are going to lead to wholesale abandonment of the Martial Arts subsystem by Hero players. I don't see the objection to Counterstrike as it is. If you have a SPD 3 Martial Artist, your counterstrike happens, at most, 4 seconds after your Block. But some people think it needs to happen in the exact same split second. I don't see any way to build that except as a Triggered attack or as a Naked Trigger, with the Trigger condition being the Block. Lucius Alexander Riding a palindromedary around the Block

Meaning you only have to pay for the difference between the free maneuver and the Martial one. i.e. that's a matter of buying Skill Levels with those maneuvers. While I would not have used the exact write up Surrealone did, I have used variations of Position Shift Usable as Attack before. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary wants me to make a list of "things Martial Arts can do" to work from.

Good point. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary is chewing it over

And one could assume that "normal" bowfire is underfiring, not using the full draw of the bow in the interest of getting the shots off faster. Haymaker is taking the time and effort to draw the bow ALL the way before loosing. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary says some things bear repeating

I did it. I expect we'll find that it's possible to do everything Martial Arts can do building with Skills and Powers, but it will be more expensive. Lucius Alexander You can also expect palindromedary taglines

So I have two questions: If there were no "Martial Arts" as they currently exist in the system, how would you go about inventing them? And, is there anything that the Martial Arts subsystem does that can't be duplicated with Powers and Skills (possibly at greater cost?) I will assert that the answer to the second question is "no" and will probably post some ideas on the first question as well. Lucius Alexander And I'll definitely post some palindromedary taglines

So, from these examples: Woodcraft: Stealth 10- (2 Active Points); Limited Power Only in wilderness / outdoor settings (-1/2)Real Cost: 1 Hunter's snares: Security Systems 10- (2 Active Points); Limited Power Only to set, recognize, or disarm, snares, pits, and similar hunter's traps (-1) Real Cost: 1 Call of the Wild: Mimicry 10- (2 Active Points); Limited Power Bird and animal calls (-1) Real Cost: 1 Not my first rodeo: Breakfall 10- (2 Active Points); Limited Power Only if thrown from / falling off of, a mount (Prerequisite: Riding; -1) Real Cost: 1 - what to you implies that these are not "conceptually....something a character knows how to ply?" They look to me like something a character might learn from training and/or experience, perhaps with some native aptitudes involved. Same as the unmodified versions of the same skills, just more limited (pardon the expression) in application. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary notes that Lucius Alexander is nonetheless resistant to the idea of modifying Martial Maneuvers, despite being generally in favor of the idea of modifying Skills.

If you don't, I might. Lucius Alexander Or let the palindromedary do it....no wait, that's probably not a good idea

This looks like it might be useful Lucius Alexander Then again I find a palindromedary useful

Yeah, this changed between editions I believe. Lucius Alexander The old exploding palindromedary trick

Ignore this post Lucius Alexander Ignore this palindromedary

Fuligan Sage, the Rider of Palindromedaries

At home anywhere: Cramming (5 Active Points); Limited Power Only for Languages or for Cultural, Area, or City Knowledges (-1), Requires A Roll (Skill roll, -1 per 5 Active Points modifier; Make Conversation Roll at -1; -1), Limited Power Learns by immersion; i.e. can't "cram" from books or instructors, but learns quickly from day to day interactions (-1/2) Real Cost 1 For the globe trotting adventurer. Weapon Practice Montage: Cramming (5 Active Points); Limited Power Only for Weapon Familiarities (-1) Weapon Practice Montage (Armsmaster version): Cramming , Usable Nearby (+1/2), Grantor can only grant the power to others (7 Active Points); Limited Power Only for Weapon Familiarities (-1), Conditional Power Must know Skill being taught (-1/4) "We have two days. I can't make soldiers of you in that time. I CAN teach you to shoot straight." Lucius Alexander The palindromedary says there's more where that came from.

First Day of Con Person publicizing her game: It's an immersive experience! Me: No thanks, I'd rather stay dry. Second Day of Con Me: Did you say your game was an immersive experience? She: Yes. Me: You didn't say a SUBmersive experience? She: No.... Me: Oh, good. So it doesn't involve going under the water. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary says I need more subversive experiences