Thia Halmades

Oh my goodness, I don’t know if I missed this or if I’m ready to wander off back into the desert.
 
Guys guys guys. Listen listen listen.
 
Let’s remember that the GM & the player have to reach an agreement, and I would point out that Extra Limbs is a whopping 5 points. I see this going in this weird circle where we’re comparing a flying super to a multi-former. Far as I’m concerned, if you’re paying to become a car, then there’s no reason not to assume it’s... a freaking car. Even HERO doesn’t include “seat belts” in its builds.
 
This boils down to granularity and campaign function. I really think this one is over thinking the problem into madness. Which is fine. I’m mad. You’re mad. We’re all mad, here.

I would like to point out the first thing I said was, “if the vehicle is properly defined and has sufficient strength.” You’re not the odd man out, I think this is a case of “HERO being HERO” and people wanting to micro things that I would — and this is a pretty good example — merrily handwave. “You’ve got strength 100? Yeah, by all means, carry all the people you can fit on your badonkadonk.”

Oh my goodness, I don’t know if I missed this or if I’m ready to wander off back into the desert.
 
Guys guys guys. Listen listen listen.
 
Let’s remember that the GM & the player have to reach an agreement, and I would point out that Extra Limbs is a whopping 5 points. I see this going in this weird circle where we’re comparing a flying super to a multi-former. Far as I’m concerned, if you’re paying to become a car, then there’s no reason not to assume it’s... a freaking car. Even HERO doesn’t include “seat belts” in its builds.
 
This boils down to granularity and campaign function. I really think this one is over thinking the problem into madness. Which is fine. I’m mad. You’re mad. We’re all mad, here.

Any question asked in good faith with an open mind to hear the answer is not stupid. Note, I did not say there are no stupid questions; I’’m saying that you’re most assuredly not going to ask one. HERO is hard to break through, it’s alphabet soup with a dozen lightsaber builds and rabbit hole arguments as to why “everything is a transform” (it’s not) lurking around every corner. Have no fear, we’ll help you navigate those waters. 
 
Welcome. 

I would like to point out the first thing I said was, “if the vehicle is properly defined and has sufficient strength.” You’re not the odd man out, I think this is a case of “HERO being HERO” and people wanting to micro things that I would — and this is a pretty good example — merrily handwave. “You’ve got strength 100? Yeah, by all means, carry all the people you can fit on your badonkadonk.”

I understand the problem. The answer is, “stop thinking of it in terms of armor.”
 
Instead, think of it as a power, then define its rules and its application. For Persona, I wrote Combat Luck as: 3 rPD/3 rED, Does Not Stack (-1/2), Character Must be Aware of Attack (-1/4). What that means is that if you put on actual armor, your Combat Luck gets replaced, and of course because you’re made of bloody, bloody flesh, if you don’t see the spear, you can’t dodge/deflect/miraculously survive the spear.
 
So let’s go back to your concept, where everyone was Kung-Fu fighting. And let’s stay with weapons being stabby and lethal. Now, how good are you? You’re really good. You have [campaign limit] of rPD, Only While Kung-Fu Fighting (-1/2). Or, Must Be Aware (-1/2), Must be Armed (-1/4), because in these settings a stool qualifies as a weapon, #becausejackiechandidit. This means you retain the dramatic horror of people leaping from rooftops and stabbing folks in the back, catching them off guard, or more importantly, watching as some poor nameless NPC gets the knife and suddenly the players turn around and they are now fully aware and ready to fight.

I understand the problem. The answer is, “stop thinking of it in terms of armor.”
 
Instead, think of it as a power, then define its rules and its application. For Persona, I wrote Combat Luck as: 3 rPD/3 rED, Does Not Stack (-1/2), Character Must be Aware of Attack (-1/4). What that means is that if you put on actual armor, your Combat Luck gets replaced, and of course because you’re made of bloody, bloody flesh, if you don’t see the spear, you can’t dodge/deflect/miraculously survive the spear.
 
So let’s go back to your concept, where everyone was Kung-Fu fighting. And let’s stay with weapons being stabby and lethal. Now, how good are you? You’re really good. You have [campaign limit] of rPD, Only While Kung-Fu Fighting (-1/2). Or, Must Be Aware (-1/2), Must be Armed (-1/4), because in these settings a stool qualifies as a weapon, #becausejackiechandidit. This means you retain the dramatic horror of people leaping from rooftops and stabbing folks in the back, catching them off guard, or more importantly, watching as some poor nameless NPC gets the knife and suddenly the players turn around and they are now fully aware and ready to fight.

I would like to point out the first thing I said was, “if the vehicle is properly defined and has sufficient strength.” You’re not the odd man out, I think this is a case of “HERO being HERO” and people wanting to micro things that I would — and this is a pretty good example — merrily handwave. “You’ve got strength 100? Yeah, by all means, carry all the people you can fit on your badonkadonk.”

Ha! What I use to say to my managers in retail when I brought headaches was “that’s why you’re paid the big bucks!” 😂

Or a long bench. 
 
Or a net. 
 
Or a 5-seat passenger compartment. 
 
We have all, at one point or another, confessed to accepting that there are this outliers where simply having an appropriate special effect is an advantage, or even the solution itself. 
 
The power is STR.  The question is "how many people at once?" 
 
The special effect is "I am a car now."
 
I know I'm the odd man out with my tendency to rely more on the SFX than do a lot of other GMs, but I just don't see a conversation here outside of "what kind of car and how many people can you stuff in one of those?" 
Assuming STR is sufficient, of course. 

Earlier I replied to one of your posts and I said “you are unlikely to ask stupid questions,” and here is proof I was right — this is a perfectly reasonable question, particularly for a newcomer to a system that “has so many ways to do things.” [insert thematically heavy sigh]. So let me dispel {HA!} that idea first; yes, there are lots of ways to achieve a specific effect, but usually, if you reason from effect, there’s a single, clear best option. When I do a build, and this is a hard earned lesson, much of which I attribute to @Chris Goodwin and @ghost-angel for beating that concept into my skull. It’s why if you read my posts, particularly my later posts after I’d done six or seven full game designs and overhauls, you’ll see that theme repeated: What exactly do you want it to do, and how exactly do you envision them doing it? Once I have those two pieces of information, I can usually cobble something together. Let’s get to it then. Oh, pet peeve; avoid negatives in your writing. Rather than ask “what of these don’t you want,” it’s much easier to ask “Which of these do you prefer?” This also makes it easier for people to respond as their thinking is normalized.

Where’s my hat? Ah, yes.
 
You have a GLB who’s throwing a “banshee like wail” into a crowd that strips STUN (and possibly blinds/deafens) the target/group. Here’s the critical point I want to address; your first concept is the one with the most concrete rules, I just don’t think you have the familiarity to get to it. It is a Flash Attack, which has a defined number of dice; you can also do it as Darkness if you want it to really wreck someone. Then you add your Area of Effect and sprinkle in some limitations et voila! Champagne.
 
Next up, PRE attack. A Presence attack sort of by its nature is an AOE, it doesn’t need to be purchased separately, but you certainly can do that. You can also link a power to the limitation “requires a stat roll,” — for me, I’ve used this aggressively to tie off an ability to a power, such as PRE, so those points do more work for the character. I think PRE attacks tend to be unreliable; one of my signature HERO characters, Aiden, was a young dragon. And by “young” I mean he was only 600 points or so, so doing a massive PRE attack was one of his big things, and it was always fun to roll 12d6, but more often than not, the result didn’t eclipse the target by enough points to make it worth while.
 
Your third choice, Entangle. I agree with you; what you are describing is not an Entangle.
 
So I think none of those represent what you described; I believe that this is an Energy Blast, No Body (-1/2?), Compound Power, Flash (Hearing). Power Link; one set of dice is rolled and it represents the effect for both powers — that’s a home brew rule, by the way, and one I absolutely swear by. So you have a 12d6 EB plus 12d6 Flash, you roll the dice once, and done. Makes things clean and consistent. The object of the power is to overwhelm the targets CON so they get stun-locked into place, and if they happen to also get their STUN dropped, great.
 
The other way to do this is an AOE Change Environment, where the scream is so powerful that it makes the terrain quiver and grinds movement to a halt; imagine a series of waves going so hard that you can see concrete warp beneath it. This should have AOE, Lingering Effect, and you can also add in +Perception modifiers making it nearly impossible to hear anything other than the scream. 
 
Let me know if either of those are closer to your original vision.

The Lord Captain Thia Halmades is a signature character I created for my fantasy setting; I liked the name and kept it. Someday, I’ll change it, but then how would anyone recognize me?
 
My first table top was Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (AD&D/2nd Edition) at the tender age of “I’m too young to fully understand what’s going on,” but old enough to “not eat the dice.” AD&D was also the first game I ever successfully ran at summer camp. Even then, when I’m supposed to be getting exercise and meet girls, what did I bring? D&D books.
 
I am currently in a 5th Ed D&D game, and loving it. Should I get a chance to run HERO again, it will be my Persona setting.
 
Pinning of threads is outside of my skill set, and I do not get a roll.

...wait.
 
What’s the question? How to carry other people at speed? it’s not fluffing it, per se, if the vehicle form is properly defined and they have sufficient strength. However, I agree with a prior post, the best, albeit weirdest way to do this, is Extra Limbs (Mama, I got seats!, -0). You can also purchase STR, only for seats, if you’re really looking for the full bucket reclining experience.

Striking Appearance: Makes people want to strike you.

Earlier I replied to one of your posts and I said “you are unlikely to ask stupid questions,” and here is proof I was right — this is a perfectly reasonable question, particularly for a newcomer to a system that “has so many ways to do things.” [insert thematically heavy sigh]. So let me dispel {HA!} that idea first; yes, there are lots of ways to achieve a specific effect, but usually, if you reason from effect, there’s a single, clear best option. When I do a build, and this is a hard earned lesson, much of which I attribute to @Chris Goodwin and @ghost-angel for beating that concept into my skull. It’s why if you read my posts, particularly my later posts after I’d done six or seven full game designs and overhauls, you’ll see that theme repeated: What exactly do you want it to do, and how exactly do you envision them doing it? Once I have those two pieces of information, I can usually cobble something together. Let’s get to it then. Oh, pet peeve; avoid negatives in your writing. Rather than ask “what of these don’t you want,” it’s much easier to ask “Which of these do you prefer?” This also makes it easier for people to respond as their thinking is normalized.

Where’s my hat? Ah, yes.
 
You have a GLB who’s throwing a “banshee like wail” into a crowd that strips STUN (and possibly blinds/deafens) the target/group. Here’s the critical point I want to address; your first concept is the one with the most concrete rules, I just don’t think you have the familiarity to get to it. It is a Flash Attack, which has a defined number of dice; you can also do it as Darkness if you want it to really wreck someone. Then you add your Area of Effect and sprinkle in some limitations et voila! Champagne.
 
Next up, PRE attack. A Presence attack sort of by its nature is an AOE, it doesn’t need to be purchased separately, but you certainly can do that. You can also link a power to the limitation “requires a stat roll,” — for me, I’ve used this aggressively to tie off an ability to a power, such as PRE, so those points do more work for the character. I think PRE attacks tend to be unreliable; one of my signature HERO characters, Aiden, was a young dragon. And by “young” I mean he was only 600 points or so, so doing a massive PRE attack was one of his big things, and it was always fun to roll 12d6, but more often than not, the result didn’t eclipse the target by enough points to make it worth while.
 
Your third choice, Entangle. I agree with you; what you are describing is not an Entangle.
 
So I think none of those represent what you described; I believe that this is an Energy Blast, No Body (-1/2?), Compound Power, Flash (Hearing). Power Link; one set of dice is rolled and it represents the effect for both powers — that’s a home brew rule, by the way, and one I absolutely swear by. So you have a 12d6 EB plus 12d6 Flash, you roll the dice once, and done. Makes things clean and consistent. The object of the power is to overwhelm the targets CON so they get stun-locked into place, and if they happen to also get their STUN dropped, great.
 
The other way to do this is an AOE Change Environment, where the scream is so powerful that it makes the terrain quiver and grinds movement to a halt; imagine a series of waves going so hard that you can see concrete warp beneath it. This should have AOE, Lingering Effect, and you can also add in +Perception modifiers making it nearly impossible to hear anything other than the scream. 
 
Let me know if either of those are closer to your original vision.

This is, in effect, the core concept of the attack. You have hit the nail on the head, so to speak. And as you have addressed above, I will attempt to once more clarify intent. A shriek or wail or howl of some sort, made over an area, to stun or stagger those there, and prevent hearing successfully. Disorientation is a plus. 

I have all but decided to treat it as something with a Linked Flash Attack. Darkness too could work, but as that is bought per radius and as a Constant power at that, it makes less sense, as the Attack so to speak is intended as an instantaneous action. The stunning effect is simply where I get a little lost, as, as you put it, there seem to be a multitude of different ways to do it.

Apologies for referring to a condition in the negative however. I tend to wind up looking at a situation and finding myself trying to compare which of the options feels least appropriate, and working up from there. In this very situation, I have been offered the options of Mind Control, Energy Blast, Change Environments, Presence Attack, and Drain, as each has a method for handling a "Stunning" effect in different manners. Lacking experience, I can't tell which would be most appropriate, so I have to go with what feels least appropriate. Ala, working in reverse.

However, you put forth an Energy Blast, which I had not yet considered. Looking back over it, I'm not exactly certain why. It is not applying a specific condition, but is working to stagger the foe by taking away STUN. It's simple, but succinct. 

The Change Environment version is an amusing concept I must admit, but If anything that feels as much a portion of after effects than anything else. Should it seem appropriate later, including it as a Linked power may work, but I find it unlikely for more Point based reasons than anything else. 

The resulting end would be something along the lines of...
Sonic Screech: Xd6 Blast, Area of Effect: Radius/Cone (+1), Incantations (-1/4), No Range (-1/2), STUN Only (-0), Unified Power (-1/4), Jointly Linked: Greater (-1/4), Power Link (-0?)
Deafening Roar: Xd6 Hearing Flash, Area of Effect: Radius/Cone (+1), Incantations (-1/4), No Range (-1/2), Unified Power (-1/4), Jointly Linked: Lesser (-1/2), Power Link (-0?)

That... is workable I believe.

I forgot that Shotguns are typically bought this way.

A Wild Thia Halmades has been spotted!

Eeyah, that’s confusing to read. Okay, so for my own amusement, I keep rewriting it in my head, but the upshot is, “determine maximum damage, then split the dice pool, apply it to BODY twice, and apply defenses against each attack.” So the question was, “what is this appropriate?” And the answer is, as with me it so often is, “IDK, what effect are you going for?” 
 
Examples where I think this is appropriate:
 
* Shottys. Everyone always brings it up, and I am certainly on that band wagon. My shotgun does KA, my bad guy is wearing armor, it’ll put him against the wall and ring his bell, but may not drop him outright
 
* HKAs. So maybe you purchase killing attacks for your martial arts, or that’s your special effect, whatever, having that killing damage reduced when it meets armor makes total sense to me.
 
* As a way to represent vehicle armor, in a weird, way; vs. armored vehicles, all non-vehicle class weapons suffer reduced penetration (campaign rule, -0).
 
* Some variations on very gnarly rubber bullets that may be built as RKAs with high STUNx but you might want to reinforce the idea they are “less lethal” — not to be confused with “non lethal.”
 
In short; is it weird? Yes. Is it useful? Yes. Certainly one of the more niche limitations in the game, but definitely holds its own in the sense of a clear, mechanical way to represent something that would otherwise require a lot more kludging.

The Lord Captain Thia Halmades is a signature character I created for my fantasy setting; I liked the name and kept it. Someday, I’ll change it, but then how would anyone recognize me?
 
My first table top was Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (AD&D/2nd Edition) at the tender age of “I’m too young to fully understand what’s going on,” but old enough to “not eat the dice.” AD&D was also the first game I ever successfully ran at summer camp. Even then, when I’m supposed to be getting exercise and meet girls, what did I bring? D&D books.
 
I am currently in a 5th Ed D&D game, and loving it. Should I get a chance to run HERO again, it will be my Persona setting.
 
Pinning of threads is outside of my skill set, and I do not get a roll.

Thia Halmades eyes you warily, uncertain of your intentions!

In my opinion the big presence of a troll is for make presence attack only .... A troll has nothing charming or nothing very tempting to want to converse with. So Charm or conversation or High Society does not work with his presence on the contrary.
 
Troll presence +15 (Only to make presence attack -1) real cost 8
 
Steph
 
 

Thia Halmades good to see you post again! Btw I ran a quick scenario yesterday and I vaguely remember though I couldn’t find it rule. The rule was if a martial weapon just Could be broken down or combined into a new weapon but those different weapons didn’t exceed listed damage or ability then it was fine. For example a Silver Spear’s spear could be as small as a medium weapon but then could extend to regular length.

This one!

I LOVE THIS ONE!!
 
Warning: I’m up a little late and when that happens I tend to ramble. So I’ve put my answer to your question up front, where it’s easy to see:
 
Answer 1: It actually doesn’t matter as long as you’re consistent. You’d be surprised how much punishment the HERO system can take and still put out a balanced game experience. To go back to @Ninja-Bear, it’s easiest to make all weapons free, because the cost was paid by the player when they invested in the Martial Art to use it. For example, Kusari-Gama. If I pick one of those up, I’m going to smash my own skull. Someone trained in it, however, is going to have the opposite experience. This is how I did it in Persona; you pay the points for what you want, you have the thing more as a manifestation of the point investment, rather than the other way around. If a bunch of points are paid for magic, great. Here’s your spell list based on the rules laid down for this system, etc.
 
Answer 2: There are a number of other things to consider before you can answer it. And based on the question, I’m making a couple of assumptions: That you’re doing some kind of high fantasy setting, that said setting involves the collection of gear and loot, and that said gear and loot is plentiful enough that it prompts the question. So if Kage, the Shadow Mage, doesn’t have 33 points available, he can’t pick up the enchanted hand crossbow? Or the bracers of archery? It’s downright skull breaking. So how else do you solve for it?
 
You can do this: Each character can soul-bind/befriend/attune (to use the 5th Ed D&D word) to X number of magical items. This is a campaign rule and costs zero points that the players can see, but you can see them. If you want to be hard and fast with it, you can give everyone their build cost in magical attunement. I build a 200 point Rogue, I can equip up to 200 points of magical gear. Or if you’re concerned, just, “gear.”  This can include spell books, spells as well as swords and shields. Going this route removes all of the messy player level book keeping from the equation, and leaves the GM free to run a game that plays like it should. 
 
Alternatively, each player may be limited to the Rule of 9; head, chest, arms, legs, two weapons, two rings and a necklace.
 
There’s no “canonical right way” to do it. In ... FH 5th Ed? Steve put forth the idea, as an option, gear is gold, magic is points. But that’s not always the case. And, more importantly, ignoring that is not necessarily going to create any kind of imbalance in your campaign. Your best bet, IMO, is to ignore this question entirely, and instead drill down to stat spread, skill selection, core powers/abilities, damage dealt, and damage that can be sustained, in addition to any other non-combat abilities that your casting classes are going to have. So let’s break down the reasoning:
 
In a traditional fantasy setting, there are three and a half core classes; Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard/Cleric. I say 3.5 because there’s a ton of campaigns and systems that just go with “magic” and that includes healing, there’s systems with all kinds of different ways to tap into other worldly... or natural but normally inaccessible... or... you get my point. The more critical question, in my mind, is not about point assignment or gold spent, but functionality and general balance. To that end, I would say that those three classes don’t really provide much framework. Whereas tank, blaster, scrapper, controller, etc., more traditional super heroic tropes, do the job much better.
 
The tank wears heavy armor, carries some variety of weaponry, has a shield. Do those cost points? Someone brought up: things paid with gold are fungible, things paid with points are not, however, there’s a counter to that, and that’s “everything has a point cost.” There’s a nasty rabbit hole you can fall down trying to reconcile the cost of a shield against gold against real cost in points to the character. Meanwhile, your casting classes have to spend points on their spells — unless you say they don’t. And you treat spells like equipment. Also an option. My late night rambling aside, here are my hard learned lessons from years of GMing Fantasy HERO:
 
1) Power level is, broadly, a lie. After a while it becomes nearly impossible to do a decent audit. I became much more interested in this question: Does everyone have roughly the same points invested in base stats and core skills? Do they all fall within the guidelines for CSLs, and are they utilizing the tools provided accordingly? Last, but not least, is their general DPR (damage per round) equivalent? A fighter who hits every round may not be as sexy as a Rogue with extra dice in Backstab, or a wizard who can throw chain lightning through an entire group, but that just means they’re doing their job. Standing up front, drawing fire, surviving, and dealing out punishment. The Rogue should be able to outpace the fighter in damage, because that’s the rogue’s job.
 
2) Damage output caps are critical. Decide early what your max number of KA dice is, AND your highest Active Point cost, and hold that line for a while as you continue to balance encounters and defenses. 
 
3) Remember: Defense wins championships. Unless you let someone buy an NND Killing Attack that’s disruptive, or the Wizard can call down oodles of Meteors every round. You don’t want that to happen, that gets gnarly.
 
4) This in a very looping way comes back to my point, and your question: when is it appropriate and how do you do it? My answer is “ignore the common application, and approach it differently.” We can math everything to death. Doesn’t mean we should.

This one!

I LOVE THIS ONE!!
 
Warning: I’m up a little late and when that happens I tend to ramble. So I’ve put my answer to your question up front, where it’s easy to see:
 
Answer 1: It actually doesn’t matter as long as you’re consistent. You’d be surprised how much punishment the HERO system can take and still put out a balanced game experience. To go back to @Ninja-Bear, it’s easiest to make all weapons free, because the cost was paid by the player when they invested in the Martial Art to use it. For example, Kusari-Gama. If I pick one of those up, I’m going to smash my own skull. Someone trained in it, however, is going to have the opposite experience. This is how I did it in Persona; you pay the points for what you want, you have the thing more as a manifestation of the point investment, rather than the other way around. If a bunch of points are paid for magic, great. Here’s your spell list based on the rules laid down for this system, etc.
 
Answer 2: There are a number of other things to consider before you can answer it. And based on the question, I’m making a couple of assumptions: That you’re doing some kind of high fantasy setting, that said setting involves the collection of gear and loot, and that said gear and loot is plentiful enough that it prompts the question. So if Kage, the Shadow Mage, doesn’t have 33 points available, he can’t pick up the enchanted hand crossbow? Or the bracers of archery? It’s downright skull breaking. So how else do you solve for it?
 
You can do this: Each character can soul-bind/befriend/attune (to use the 5th Ed D&D word) to X number of magical items. This is a campaign rule and costs zero points that the players can see, but you can see them. If you want to be hard and fast with it, you can give everyone their build cost in magical attunement. I build a 200 point Rogue, I can equip up to 200 points of magical gear. Or if you’re concerned, just, “gear.”  This can include spell books, spells as well as swords and shields. Going this route removes all of the messy player level book keeping from the equation, and leaves the GM free to run a game that plays like it should. 
 
Alternatively, each player may be limited to the Rule of 9; head, chest, arms, legs, two weapons, two rings and a necklace.
 
There’s no “canonical right way” to do it. In ... FH 5th Ed? Steve put forth the idea, as an option, gear is gold, magic is points. But that’s not always the case. And, more importantly, ignoring that is not necessarily going to create any kind of imbalance in your campaign. Your best bet, IMO, is to ignore this question entirely, and instead drill down to stat spread, skill selection, core powers/abilities, damage dealt, and damage that can be sustained, in addition to any other non-combat abilities that your casting classes are going to have. So let’s break down the reasoning:
 
In a traditional fantasy setting, there are three and a half core classes; Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard/Cleric. I say 3.5 because there’s a ton of campaigns and systems that just go with “magic” and that includes healing, there’s systems with all kinds of different ways to tap into other worldly... or natural but normally inaccessible... or... you get my point. The more critical question, in my mind, is not about point assignment or gold spent, but functionality and general balance. To that end, I would say that those three classes don’t really provide much framework. Whereas tank, blaster, scrapper, controller, etc., more traditional super heroic tropes, do the job much better.
 
The tank wears heavy armor, carries some variety of weaponry, has a shield. Do those cost points? Someone brought up: things paid with gold are fungible, things paid with points are not, however, there’s a counter to that, and that’s “everything has a point cost.” There’s a nasty rabbit hole you can fall down trying to reconcile the cost of a shield against gold against real cost in points to the character. Meanwhile, your casting classes have to spend points on their spells — unless you say they don’t. And you treat spells like equipment. Also an option. My late night rambling aside, here are my hard learned lessons from years of GMing Fantasy HERO:
 
1) Power level is, broadly, a lie. After a while it becomes nearly impossible to do a decent audit. I became much more interested in this question: Does everyone have roughly the same points invested in base stats and core skills? Do they all fall within the guidelines for CSLs, and are they utilizing the tools provided accordingly? Last, but not least, is their general DPR (damage per round) equivalent? A fighter who hits every round may not be as sexy as a Rogue with extra dice in Backstab, or a wizard who can throw chain lightning through an entire group, but that just means they’re doing their job. Standing up front, drawing fire, surviving, and dealing out punishment. The Rogue should be able to outpace the fighter in damage, because that’s the rogue’s job.
 
2) Damage output caps are critical. Decide early what your max number of KA dice is, AND your highest Active Point cost, and hold that line for a while as you continue to balance encounters and defenses. 
 
3) Remember: Defense wins championships. Unless you let someone buy an NND Killing Attack that’s disruptive, or the Wizard can call down oodles of Meteors every round. You don’t want that to happen, that gets gnarly.
 
4) This in a very looping way comes back to my point, and your question: when is it appropriate and how do you do it? My answer is “ignore the common application, and approach it differently.” We can math everything to death. Doesn’t mean we should.