TranquiloUno

Aaron Allston had an article in Adventurer's Club that talked about this.  He even gave examples using villains from The Great Supervillain Contest.  Ex.  Place a field of Darkness and have an ally with IR vision teleport in and cause havoc.  OR a speedster (spd) and his shrinking and invisible GF (spd 4) .  She holds on to his neck and when he does a move through she targets the same person.  And if he gets knocked out, she can grab him (str 10 and 20 flight) and pull him out of battle.  And of course a ranged entangle guy hitting a target and everyone taking a shot at him.  
 
One way to get players to use tactics is to use an enemy team who are weaker than yours, but use tactics.  And have them trounce our players.  

It's funny....
 
I've never really put it together before, but 4e seems to be about the time the hair-splitting started getting more and more severe....
 
It was also the introduction of character-building software.....
 
 
I have to wonder if there's a connection-- if the spread of the software and the growing reliance on it may have influenced how we began to think about building characters, rather than simply being a tool to help us get our ideas down.

All this discussion makes me think of Wild Cards. They did a pretty good job handling this very situation.

Against grouped opponents(like agents): liberal use of AOE attacks, PRE attacks, multi target attacks, etc.
Against a group of villains, some of whom are more/less powerful: take out the least powerful first so that you can tag team the tough ones more easily
Against a single powerful villain: have one or two players use tactics to nullify or mitigate the villain's attacks, then the rest work to make the villain easier to hit, restrict their mobility, and coordinate attacks to whittle them down
 
I'm leery of using "I win" type powers, just because the more the player group does it, the more likely it is they will be on the receiving end as well, and I know in advance they won't like it much.  
 
The most general combat tactics:
1. Figure out what the enemy can do first.
2. Do something to make them more hittable or reduce their threat level: grab, entangle, flash, darkness, telekinetic grab, martial throw, etc.
3. Target a vulnerability if possible--mental blast, attack vs susceptibility or vulnerability, KA vs unarmored(not very heroic in a supers setting), etc.
4. When in doubt, gang up on the target--multiple coordinated attacks, some of them haymakered.or pushed.
5. If you're losing, grab your fallen comrades and run.  

I'll go:
 
 
For a world-class concert pianist I'd give them a Dex of 12-15 and a PS: World-Class Concert Pianist 18-. And if really, really, really needed that extra granularity to highly specifically define just how good a world-class concert pianist this character is I might buy them some Skill Levels: Only for world-class concert pianism or something.
No more than 25-30pts probably.
 
Bonus question: They'd make a World-Class Concert Pianist skill roll. Dex and specifically manual dexterity wouldn't really factor in to how I'd handle that in-game. It's a skill, they make a skill roll. For a opposed dueling pianos type situation I'd....have them both make skill rolls and compare the degree of success.
 
For an Olympic Gymnast I'd give them a Dex of 15-18 and an Acrobatics skill of 18-. And if I really, really, really wanted that extra granularity to highly specifically define just how bad he sucks at fighting I'd take a Disad\Limitation: Sucks at Fighting for a -2CV.
 
Bonus question: They'd make an Acrobatics skill roll. Dex wouldn't really factor in to it. For competing floor routines I'd have them both make a skill roll and compare degrees of success. They might even get to make a complimentary PS: Olympic gymnast skill rolls to read the judges and pick a better routine.
 
Last bonus question: To me Hero is what they call "effect based" which means that the mechanics are just a way to represent in-game effects in the out-of-game mechanics. So, to me, a world-class anything (skill based) just need an appropriate "world-class" level skill.
Similarly I'm not trying to reconstruct reality in my games, just the cinematic\dramatic\narrative effects that I'm after for purposes of this fun game I like to play, so I don't need to exhaustively quantify what makes an Olympic gymnast "Olympic" exactly.
 
Either I'm making a player character and "Olympic gymnast" is part of the concept, in which case I need only hit those minimums and I'll likely, as a player, have more points than needed to hit a certain "Olympic gymnast" level of stats.
Or I'm making an NPC and I'm probably very point limited AND don't really care about the outcome (ie, the world-class\Olympic-ness of the NPC isn't going to carry any\much game effect (and since Hero is "effect based" then I don't have to model the effect, since it won't come up)) so I just need a quick way to shorthand, "Yo! Dude is agile, ya'll!".
 
Final note on gymnasts and concert pianists seems to me to be: How good are they really? Most Olympic gymnasts lose (only 3 folks get to medal out of tens\hundreds of competitors) and most folks performing at a high level are also attempting high level feats which carry increased risk (skill roll penalties) and result in failure fairly often (consider how many Olympic gymnasts fall, fail, flub, or otherwise botch their routines).
 
 
 
 
 

Worth it. Go in spoiler free and bring tissues. 

So, you say "it doesn't have to be that way by default", I agree with you, and you disagree with me agreeing with you.  Yes, it is in the rules.  No, it does not "have to be" in the rules.
 
By the rules, the Incantations limitation requires you speak in a clear voice, audible from some distance away, and are prevented from doing so by a Silence field.  If my SFX suggest this is not the case, then they are not compatible with the limitation in the rules.
 
You stated that the mechanic " just doesn't make sense to me".  I asked whether magic has to make sense, and you said it does, within its own parameters.  I suggested that those parameters would then logically define exactly why you need to Incant in order to cast a spell - what does the incantation do, exactly, that allows the spell to work?  Based on the rules saying a silence field causes incantations to fail, it seems like whatever they do, they must be audible to be effective.
 
Absolutely nothing stops anyone, by RAW, stating that their character must intone the words, but they can do that underwater, in deep space, in a silence field, while being strangled, whatever you want.  That's not the Incantations limitation, so it does not get that -1/4 limitation.  Is it limited enough to merit -1/4 as a Limited Power instead?  If so, limit it.  If not, perhaps this is a -0 limitation. 

That's fine, but is it a _wrong_ build? 
 
To clarify where I was coming from:
 
I'm on a touch screen during the day, which means it takes a stupid amount of time for me to type anything.  At the time I was composing that post, the conversation was about agents and the Thing, who where high SPD because of training, and the dissenting view was something olong the lines of "how does combat training make them Olympic class sprinters?" 
 
It doesn't, obviously.  But just watching even an amateur boxing match demonstrates that a normal human can train to up his reaction time well up to what we consider a speed 5 or even a 6, able to dodge, block, strike, and counter-strike at speeds most of us are just never going to achieve.   
 
For a more personal real-world perspective, reference my own post about getting my ass kicked by a guy who had only a modicum of combat training.  I grew up scrapping, and generally held my own.  I couldn't compete with one guy my own age who had only the training he got in the Army:  nothing complex, but more than I had. 
 
As far as seeing it done, I've got four agent groups for my supers games that use that build: up SPD and cut movement.  It gives what I'm looking for: a couple inches per turn more movement than a normal, but heightened reaction speeds. 
 
 
I'm not making that argument, though: I am suggesting that HERO combat _models_ people moving non-stop while attacking and defending, and that the fact that it is modelled in stop-motion, stop-go-stop-go-stop as its broken across phases seems to lead toward an acceptance that this is what the characters are actually doing.  They aren't.  X inches isn't when you stop then go again, it's the point at which you are able to react or make a decision. 
 
 
I would prefer that myself.  I'm a huge propenent of movement-by-segment.  Partly because I think it would more clearly demonstrate SPD as something more than "it's how fast you move," and partly because it segues nicely into figuring mobe-throughs based on inches-per-turn.  With the current model, someone with SPD8 doing 20" hits only as hard as someone SPD1 doing 20", which right there should be something of a hint that SPD and movement could use a bit of separating. 

Removing Figured Characteristics does improve the system overall. Unfortunately it makes chargen more difficult(not massively but noticeably due to the lack of common benchmarks for the previously figured characteristics). This can be easily fixed by the GM. It's just that the main obstacle for new players is chargen and the game doesn't acknowledge it.
 
A better question is, Is 6th edition the most fun version of the game, To me it's not.  IMO, the last book that was written with fun in consideration was the 5th edition UNTIL Superpowers Database. After that the books became more and more like textbooks.

I think this tread should actually be titled “dissenting views NOT welcome”.

My main problem with 6E being the best mechanical system is that my measures of “best” include how easy it is to create a character.  By removing figured characteristics, particularly OCV, DCV, and the mental versions, the game introduced more fiddly bits with less guidance on how to use them.  Figured characteristics weren’t the problem - the costs and calculations were the issue.
 
For example, what if instead of removing OCV, DCV, and SPD as figured characteristics of DEX, we increase the cost of DEX to 5 character points per point, and adjust skill levels so you can buy straight +1 OCV or +1 DCV for 5 points?  Now, you can have the 8 DEX character who still has a competitive OCV and DCV (via skill levels), but there’s less things to keep track of.  You buy DEX and SPD, then add levels if you need more OCV or DCV.  In 6E, you buy DEX, you buy SPD, you buy OCV, you buy DCV...and you still may want to buy levels.  With figured characteristics, new players can see the relationship of DEX to being quick to act, being accurate, and being able to dodge attacks, instead of having to figure out four disconnected stats.
 
One of my big pet peeves about 6E is CON.  You’re basically paying points for one thing - not being stunned.  CON rolls are relatively rare, especially in superhero games, and it’s more efficient to buy higher defenses than to buy up CON.  CON was the stat to showcase figured characteristics - it gave you a good starting point for END, REC, and STUN.  In heroic-level games, I’d usually leave those figured characteristics at the default values, which speeded up character creation.  Even in superhero games, having the figured characteristics gave me a good baseline to work from before increasing to meet the character’s needs for power use and durability.  In 6E, I have to make three additional decisions that were handled by the figured characteristics in 5E.  I don’t want more dials to turn...or at least, I want those dials preset to numbers that will work, instead of having to look at each one and make an additional decision.
 
6E isn’t all bad, though.  When it tried to fix problems through simple adjustments instead of designing entirely new subsystems, it did well (case in point - damage shield).
 
That’s about all I can offer to discussion this late in the evening.  I could add something about opportunity costs, but I already did that in another thread earlier tonight.

Like the Affects Desolid sword this is another of those things that Hero can do, mechanically, which I think is super cool.
 
In another system you'd just get: Pass without Trace and it would work like it says it does in the spell block. In Hero it works like Invisibility, and the sense interactions are all right there for you.
 
You might be a serious nerd if: harmonious rules interactions are deeply statisfying. ;D

I personally build my mooks as OCV ~4, one or two Firearms CSLs, and then build their gun as a multipower with an attack slot and an Aid Firearms CSL 1d6 (standard effect) slot.  This both speeds up combat, since I only have to make one attack roll per mook-group, and makes them threatening only in groups. 
One mook shooting at you?  OCV 5, he'll miss, ignore him.  Six mooks shooting at you?  One attack at OCV 10, you're likely to get hit. 

In my world there are not a lot of magic items.  Mages are pretty common and very few creatures require a magic weapon to kill.
 
Also my world is really wet.  This causes all kinds of problems with metal - especially steel and iron weapons (one of the reasons why there are many people w/ bronze weapons).  There is a magic spell which will clean and make ready any metal weapon or armor (basically healing and/or transform).  The party recently got a large treasure that included two exquisite steel swords (not magically but both were +1 DC above a normal steel blade and also had a +1 OCV bonus due to quality of the weapon).  The previous owners had those spells which is why the weapons had not just rusted away.  The players paid to have someone make scabbards for the swords with the cleaning spell in the scabbard.  The spell can be used up to 3 times a day and only with the weapon that the scabbard was made for.
 
The party also has a player who carries a big shield and so they had a mage put a s powerful 'light spell' (cone) that has a 6 hour per day 'fuel charge'.
 
I am a big fan of practical vs. bigger bang sticks 😉

I've been using pathfinder content for my Fantasy Hero table so when I run into a pathfinder item that I don't know (pretty  much memorized the 5th ed D&D ones) I make something up on the spot.
 
One of the more popular items so far:  Hounds Foil Boots  (Invisible to smell, always on, persistent) + Flight (always on, persistent, only in contact with a surface, only to avoid leaving a trail).
 
 

I tend to swipe from everything I see, so some D&D type stuff, some from my ideas, some from games like Might & Magic, Diablo, Runequest, etc.  Some from books.  Most "magic items" people find are one-shot trinkets, herbs, or weapons and armor made from alternate, enchanted materials within inherently better properties such as armor that is slightly lighter and better defense. Real, powerful magical items like staves that shoot lightning or an orb that allows telekinesis are more rare and in very specific areas.

Because of how Hero works, some small effects can be very potent, like a sword with armor piercing.  Doesn't seem like much but it really shreds opponents.

For games, I end up doing a lot of D&D clone items and blindly obvious magic items (magic swords, genie lamps, and magic carpets) because players expect to see those kinds of things in the world unless I disallow having magic items altogether.
 
I've thought about writing a small book on weird fringe magic items and have come up with a few ideas for it. It's challenging trying to come up with things I haven't seen before.
 
I haven't really written anything specifically for a gaming publication (as opposed to a gaming forum where I've given someone permission to use something I wrote). Churning out huge amounts of news and political commentary for various now-defunct websites surprisingly hasn't been good preparation for knowing anything about formatting, getting access to artwork, etc. that you have to know in order to do writing for games. And playing HERO hasn't been particularly good prep for that aspect either especially since most of my play experience is 4th edition and earlier and HERO isn't interested in people writing that kind of content.

He's a spy. Captain, he's the spy. His secrets have secrets.

It's a sword. It's meant for killing.
 
 
Autofire means if it rolls and hits by more than 2, it hits twice.
 
 
Being insubstantial is no defense
 
 
Neither is being astral or ethereal.
 
 
It's a bastard sword, requiring STR 9 if used two handed, STR 12 if used one handed. Designed to be lethal, it has a reduced STUN multiplier. To employ its arcane properties, certain words and phrases must be spoken in the Ulronai tongue. If not so addressed, the blade's spirit will not cooperate with the wielder.
 
 
 
Between the sword's own length and a competent swordsman's ability to lunge, the weapon has 2 meters of Reach.
 
 
The sword has a +1 OCV
 
 
If the attack roll is made by 4, not only do you roll damage twice (autofire), the first damage is rolled with another 1d6 of Killing damage added in.
 
 
If using two hands, gain a +1 for either OCV or DCV due to better control.
 
 
Lucius Alexander
 
 
 

Grace Paxton
 
Val Char Cost Roll Notes
13 STR 3 12- Lift 151.6kg; 2 ½d6 [1]
18 DEX 16 13- OCV: 2/DCV: 2/4
15 CON 5 12-
13 INT 3 12- PER Roll 12-
13 EGO 3 12- ECV: 3 - 3
15 PRE 5 12- PRE Attack: 3d6
 
2 OCV -5
2+2 DCV -5
3 OMCV 0
3 DMCV 0
3 SPD 10 Phases: 4, 8, 12
 
4 PD 2 Total: 4 PD (0 rPD)
4 ED 2 Total: 4 ED (0 rED)
5 REC 1
25 END 1
11 BODY 1
20 STUN 0 Total Characteristic Cost: 40
 
Movement: Running: 9m/18m
Leaping: 5m/10m
Swimming: 4m/8m
 
Cost Powers END
6 +2 DCV (10 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, Takes that long for her to accept the danger is real; -¾)
Notes: Her agility does help, once she understands someone is really trying to hurt her.
Agile and Evasive
Maneuver OCV DCV Notes
5 Flying Dodge -- +4 Dodge All Attacks, Abort; FMove
4 Martial Dodge -- +5 Dodge, Affects All Attacks, Abort
4 Martial Escape +0 +0 28 STR vs. Grabs
 
Perks
4 Positive Reputation: World class pianist and olympic gymnast! (A large group) 11-, +2/+2d6
 
Talents
4 Double Jointed
3 Perfect Pitch
1 Ambidexterity (-2 Off Hand penalty)
 
Skills
0 World Class Concert Pianist
1 1) : Musical Notation (; literate)
0 Olympic Gymnast
9 1) Acrobatics 16-
5 2) Breakfall 14-
3 3) Contortionist 13-
3 Jack of All Trades
1 1) PS: Dancer (2 Active Points) 11-
2 2) PS: Olympic Gymnast (3 Active Points) 13-
5 3) PS: Play Piano (6 Active Points) 16-
 
Total Powers & Skill Cost: 61
Total Cost: 100
 
100+ Matching Complications
70 Base Points
10 Psychological Complication: Aversion to Violence (Uncommon; Strong)
10 Social Complication: World Famous Pianist AND Gymnast! Frequently, Minor
10 Susceptibility: If subject to, or forced to commit, an act of violence 2d6 damage Instant (Uncommon)
 
Total Complications Points: 100
 
Background/History: From earliest childhood, Grace Paxton loved two things: music and gymnastics. Often told she must choose one discipline to excel, she has proven despite such advice to be able to rise to the top in both fields.
 
Personality/Motivation: If it doesn't have a bearing on one or the other of her overriding obsessions, she neither knows nor cares much about it. Grace Paxton wants to bring beauty and harmony into the world, and is profoundly averse to destruction or violence.
 
Quote: Please, no shoving! Everyone will get an autograph if you are just a little patient and civilized!
 
Powers/Tactics: Can be surprisingly evasive once convinced that someone truly means her harm, but has no offensive capabilities at all.
 
Campaign Use: Try to keep her out of the line of fire - she's pretty fragile.
 
Appearance: Petite and slender, Grace Paxton looks like the helpless waif she is.
 
 
 
Lucius Alexander
 
Copyright Palindromedary Enterprises
 

An enchanted shield that can heal up to three times a day.
 
The Serpent Shield:  (Total: 35 Active Cost, 8 Real Cost) +3 DCV (15 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Conditional Power Only for front and left (-1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4) (Real Cost: 5) <b>plus</b> Healing Simplified 2d6 (20 Active Points); 4 clips of 1 Charge (Increased Reloading Time: 1 Hour; -2 3/4), One Use At A Time (-1), OIF (-1/2), Costs Endurance (-1/2) (Real Cost: 3)
 
Runes painted onto these barbaric garments from the hide of a a pawari (a moose like creature) grant a +1 bonus to Survival Skill rolls in addition to being 1 pt of Resistant Protection from attacks.
 
Pawari Hide Armor:  (Total: 5 Active Cost, 3 Real Cost) Resistant Protection (1 PD/1 ED) (3 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Real Armor (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2) <b>plus</b> +1 with Survival (2 Active Points); OIF (-1/2) (Real Cost: 1)
 
Ulro Zandar, the Phantom Sword or the Sword of Ghosts
 
Ulro Zandar, the Sword of Ghosts:  (Total: 115 Active Cost, 31 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6-1, Autofire (2 shots; +1/4), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2), Transdimensional (Related Group of Dimensions; +3/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1) (87 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 9 with 2 hands, 12 with 1 hand (-1/2), -2 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/2), Incantations (Requires Incantations throughout; -1/2), Required Hands One-And-A-Half-Handed (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 22) <b>plus</b> Reach 2m, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (3 Active Points); OAF (-1), Linked (Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand; -1/2), Always Direct (-1/4), Limited Body Parts (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) <b>plus</b> +1 With OCV (2 Active Points); Linked (Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand; -1/2), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) <b>plus</b> Weapon Master:  +1d6 ([limited group]) (20 Active Points); Requires A Roll (Attack roll, -1 per 5 Active Points modifier; Must be made each Phase/use; -1 1/2), Linked (Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand; -1/2), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 6) <b>plus</b> +1 with OCV or DCV (3 Active Points); Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Linked (Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand; -1/2), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1)
 
The Amulet of Comprehension: supremely useful for a wide ranging Turakian Age hero
 
Amulet of Comprehension:  (Total: 21 Active Cost, 10 Real Cost) Universal Translator 14- (21 Active Points); Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), IIF (-1/4), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) (Real Cost: 10)
 
Lucius Alexander
 
I sent a palindromedary to fetch these
 
 

Quill of Penmanship:  (Total: 4 Active Cost, 2 Real Cost) +2/+2d6 Striking Appearance (vs. Anyone reading what the character writes) (4 Active Points); IAF Fragile (-3/4), Conditional Power Only effects literate people reading the message (-1/2) (Real Cost: 2)
 
Lucius Alexander
 
Happened to be in the palindromedary's saddlebags

This encounter can be really fun when done right and give the characters a reminder of how powerful they are between battles with incredibly dangerous opponents.
 
The Dwarven Sapper from my Saturday game hit the streets at night to get some information on the big bad they're stalking and missed his streetwise roll by a large amount.  So to spice that up I had the two street toughs he was chatting up pull knives on him and tell him to "hand over the gold, little man.".  I had them set as DEX 11, OCV 4, Speed 3 and the Dwarven Sapper is north of 250 pts and Speed 4 with a modest number of magical items to boot.
 
In a single turn he has both goons down, one badly unconscious and damaged, the other out-on-his-feet without even going for his real weapons.  One guy at the table remarked it was like the punks and decided to mug the Punisher and they all had a good laugh.
 
 

If you want to be realistic about expertise in the modern world, it's better to give someone several overlapping skills that can be used as complementary skills in one area. An expert is going to have a lot of general knowledge about specific areas, and then be able to put it all together. So you might have:
 
PS: Pianist (13-)
KS: Classical music (13-)
KS: Romantic era (13-)
 
This person can sit down and play jazz or Elton John very. But if they sit down and play classical music that complementary skill pushes them to another level. And when they're play music from the Romantic period, their real specialty, it's going to be the best ever. This also reflects that any expert has to get a lot of background knowledge...someone who interprets music from a specific period is going to know a lot about the era they study that has nothing to do with music.