Opal

56 minutes ago, Opal said:

Though, really neither of those is fair... D&D didn't claim to be an RPG, initially, but "Rules  for Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns Playable with Paper and Pencil and Miniature Figures" ...

And, also TBF, D&D wasn't really a wargame, either, it used Chainmail for actual miniatures wargaming and, according to legend something called Wilderness Survival for hexcrawling (never heard of it, I've at least read Chainmail).

D&D, itself, was mostly a just sort of puzzle game focussed on dungeoncrawling and managing resources like spells, hit points (restored with cure spells), scrolls of spells, potions that acted like spells (esp cure spells), and wand/staff/rods or other charged items that cast spells.

Players insisted on frequently pausing the game to speak in character or describe actions, though, especially the dungeoncrawling portion where you might avoid a trap or find a treasure by describing how you looked for it in sufficiently exhaustive detail. 

So talking in character and disengaging from the rules by declaring actions too granular for them to resolve, became "Role Playing" and D&D became "the first"  RPG. 

15 hours ago, C.R.Ryan said:

D&D hasn't been the best RPG since it was the only RPG.

"D&D The First and still the Worst!"

Though, really neither of those is fair... D&D didn't claim to be an RPG, initially, but "Rules  for Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns Playable with Paper and Pencil and Miniature Figures" ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_(1974)#/media/File%3AD%26d_Box1st.jpg

Wasn't there a lot if discussion of eliminating "cost breaks" in the lead-up to 6th?

I can see how "must use most expensive way," yet another round of skill &c bloat, and 1000 point characters could come out of that. 

IDK, I look at 5th & 4th (and GMs folding together JI, Fantasy Hero & Star Hero with Champions before that), and I see enough skill bloat and new powers ignoring the actual effect/special effect line, to be very concerned.

Fully-compatible 5e add-on and Pathfinder are not exactly away from D&D.

That's on the level of "I heard cigarettes are bad for you, now I use a filter or smoke a pipe"

59 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

it could work, as long as the GM doesn't let you use talons to rake something or have eagle eyes too

Sure.

That's the brilliance at the core of Champions - you don't buy what you do or how you do it, but what you accomplish. 

Flying across town, whether eagle form or jet pack or self-TK, is just flight.

If some other aspect of to the special effect is something you want - like rending talons or TKing someone else - you buy those things, too, or they're glossed over, ignored or explained away.

And that was, like, 1981.  Other games were all "should armor deflect or reduce damage? How can multiclassing work better?  Classes or skills? Can I play a Balrog?" And Champions just casually cracked how to do a universal system.

2 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

asking for a crunchy, non-narrative TTRPG system 

Hero is very crunchy, but not exactly non-narrative... 

Like, Disadvantages, Limitations (and some advantages), even Frameworks, are pretty wrapped up in The Narrative.  Special Effects can be, too.

(I suppose that's where "point balance" happens, too, in the story that you tell, in play.)

GURPS, OTOH, pretty non-narrative. Things about your character that could drive a narrative or at least your place in it, might be 1-point quirks.

I'm reminded of the 1st ed discussion of Special Effects and the example of the shapeshifting character with the ultra multipower.  One slot was Flight,,special effect: turns into an Eagle; another, Growth: turns into a giant ape; HKA: tiger; etc.

(It thought: Make it multi slots and turn onto a wider variety of things.)

It may seem primitive or lacking granularity or something, but, really, it was fine. 

(I suppose you could have added a physical limitation just as a catchall, "can't do things the form he assumes couldn't.")

So yeah, no need for Multiform (though I suppose you could think of Multiform as whole characters stuffed into slots of a huge multipower)

16 hours ago, Old Man said:

I feel as though 4e was the sweet spot for Hero,

I agree.  Before that it wasn't a unified universal system, just another 80s "core system" a given company would build a variation on with each new game.

And after that, way too much bloat in skills, perks, skills, proficiencies, skills, familiarities, skills, contacts, skills, skills, and more skills, not to mention open-ended knowledges, sciences, proffessions, area knowledges, and, oh, yeah languages. 

Like, 1st:

"Ima detective in m'secret ID"

Detective Work, INT roll, 5 pts

Then 2nd & 3rd, stuff bled in from Espionage, Justice Inc, Danger International ...

Criminology is only 3 pts.... better pick up profession Private Investigator and Perk PI liscence, as well. 2pts ea.    

4th ... I think there's a 20 point package for that some where... 😐

5th. Did I say 20? I meant 50.  😞

6th:  I see your 50 and raise you...

=:-O

Hero, you can model anything.  

So I rarely see something and think "that screams Hero."

I was exposed to the very first version of GURPS, so I think of it as a Skill based system.  Magic and tech - even guns, came later.

So a fencer who blew all his points on DEX & fencing, a strongman who poured everything into STR, and a more rounded, more efficiently built character better than either of them - and the villains.  Yeah, checks out.

I mean, I could picture Princess Bride as GURPS more readily than D&D.

On 2/1/2023 at 8:14 AM, Lord Liaden said:

People whining about how meaningless their lives are when they literally can do anything and want for nothing.

I should not in any way liken that to a living generation of Americans...

Ok, on topic, what if an origin-story event or factor did focus on just one generation.  Like a drug or environmental contaminant or mystic conjunction.

So it's Teen Supers & superpowers are a disruptive wildcard, initially,  after 20 years supers are well-established part of society, etc...

...another 40 and it's "OK, Super"

On 1/23/2023 at 10:36 AM, Christopher R Taylor said:

places, like Canada have like 8 superheroes and 4 villains, and places like South America appear to have almost nothing going on.

Obviously they all emigrated to NY

D&D could vanish and WotC would still be their most profitable unit.

It would have one less "runaway growth" soundbite, is about it.

I wonder if they weren't pulling something else under the cover of this kerfluffle?

7 hours ago, Steve said:

Maybe GURPS will experience a Renaissance

Gurps Old-school Renaisance.

GOR

I anticipate no issues.

And the door closes on the third and probably final opportunity to win mainstream name recognition for a non-D&D TTRPG outside the hobby.

With only Pathfinder, an outright D&D clone having been glimpsed. 

I wonder if Hasbro coughed up for product placement on Stranger Things?

I mean, Hero has, maybe, one of those issues (skills are not well-defined, there are so many skills and so many open-ended ways to define more, you can never be sure you've got an area of expertise covered).

But, ironically, the edition before 5e also didn't have all those issues, either.  Martials & casters were balanced, non-AC defenses replaced saving throws, there was a short skill list with clear guidelines for setting difficulties and required successes, dynamic tactical combat, Vancian gone but for the fluff text of the wizard class, powers (including spells) were divided into attack and utility, so the firmer didnt crowd out yhe latter and niche out of combat spells became gp-equivalent-component limited Rituals. And, yeah, themed casters were workable. 

Sub-classes w/in a class, though, could have disparities. The Slayer did not compare with other Fighters, for instance.

Then 5e put it all back the way it was.

On 1/18/2023 at 10:14 AM, Old Man said:

D&D 5e --> Hero conversion document

Fighter: build your character on 100 pts + 5x level can't buy powers. SDP starts at 2 and becomes 4 at 5th level, 6 at 11th and 8 at 20th, but only for attacks, not movement.

Wizard: build your character on 100 points + 100x level. Only buy 1 charge powers but buy as many as you want.

Well, she has a transformation sequence?

This concept begs for a storyline in which Nocturna &c conquer the world, and all is lost...

...but the hero can fix everything by giving up her powers and just being her ordinary person ID again.

"Since that didn't work, this time we'll kill the OGL and put out an even worse product!"

On 1/22/2023 at 6:39 AM, dean day said:

How do you handle such origins for power sources and character types in your campaign

So you know how you do campaign guidelines?

Like 12DC or 30def or 90apts or whatever 

Well, I went into detail with "mutation syndromes" and super-tech and super soldier serums so a player who wanted to be a mutant could see what kind and levels of powers were appropriate and how scientists and reporters would describe those.  Like a hairy beastman would be "retro-volved"

And there was a timeline with a lot of dead supers populating it, both lifted from the golden & silver age and original.

In a sense it's like presenting a menu of half-built powers & special effects.

I had a lot of fun with it, but I also just let players build outside of it, because nothing keeps a new mad science from being invented or mutant syndrome being described.

On 12/21/2022 at 3:28 PM, Cloppy Clip said:

Could these rules for spirits be generalised to creating templates lacking different characteristics?

"The Complete Incompletes" is a fan rule set that does so for every 4th ed/BBB characteristic.

Don't know where to find it...

17 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Thought for the day: If corporations are evil and I work for one then am I a Punch-Clock Villain?

You're a minion, obviously.

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

When was D&D not the clear market leader in TTRPGs?

Mostly when it was not being published.

Late in the 90s when TSR was collapsing (mainly mismanagement) and Storyteller riding high.

Early 2010s with the "Essentials" softcover/boxed line and Next Playtest.

Though, arguably, Pathfinder /was also just D&D/