Doc Democracy

Again, an imposition of SFX that is not entirely necessary. As GM, once the "can phase through solid objects" is taken off the table, I would be content for attacks to deflect off the character, almost lensing. I do think you are focussing on the NAME of the mechanic rather than the EFFECT. It is unlikely that you do this with most other mechanics and indeed I have seen most if not all of you come up with extremely creative ways of using the toolbox. It is why I have stuck around so long. My biggest struggle has been getting my players to play their powers rather than the mess of numbers on the character sheet. I do not want them to think " Oh, he is desolid, I will use my affect desolid attack next time". I want them to think "Nothing seems to affect him, I wonder if my intense plasma ray would do it". I actually hate affect desolid, in my games no affect desolid will be allowed to blanket hit every SFX of desolid. I make my players consider why their power affects a desolid character and what kind of SFX of desolid it might not work against. Doc

Is this the exception that proves the rule?? To me, all the powers in the book are simply mechanics that have SFX wrapped round them. Desolid as a mechanic means that the character takes no damage from attacks unless they are affect desolid, mental or of a reasonably common group. It also allows a character to pass through solid objects. If you take that last bit away, it is pretty reminiscent of Superman. Almost nothing hurts him unless it is mental or magic or kryptonite. Doc

I ran a super-agents game a long time ago. Each agent had one special power, one dimensional stuff. We had an agent that could run like the wind, one that could fly, one that could go invisible and one that was invulnerable. It was surprising what worked the way the players thought it would and what did not. 🙂 The invulnerable character ended up crashing a car into a ravine and being stuck in the wreckage while the car filled up with water. We had a bit of a long discussion on whether invulnerability was protection from drowning. It was an interesting campaign even if just to highlight how we tend to round characters out in a point buy system... Doc

How committed are you to no damage? Obviously the initial attack will do no damage but if the person is knocked back into a wall. Would that do damage? There is also the question of whether you want people knocked back to be on their feet or have the potential of ending up prone?

We have moved to Tabletop Arena for boardgames. Not a huge selection of games but made to play games rather than replicate a tabletop experience. We have had a blast. on roleplay we have gone down the roll20/Discord route. I kind of hate Discord but have been using that on my phone to chat while using the laptop and a spare monitor for the roleplay and it has worked pretty well. The biggest issue we have identified is the inclination to put too much work into making the play interface as good as it could be; far in excess of anything we seek to achieve at in person games. That can, counter-intuitively, put the technology between the players and the game experience... Sometimes you need to just let it flow - voices and few handouts on the screen with almost everything else imagined. There are times where a battlemat is useful - but you can quickly sketch something on the screen and use a few icons to manage the game needs. Doesn't ALWAYS have to look beautiful. Doc

Well, how dare you behave in such on way on the internet!! And on a gaming discussion board no less!!! 😄

That is at the heart of HERO but I think that if you go too extreme on the principle then you lose a lot of soil from the game. I am often hoping the players will go beyond the numbers on the page and really play the powers. That is a pipe dream if I place hard borders around every power. Doc

It is exactly here that you diverge from Duke. If you have the multipower switched to STR but are not using the STR that, in Duke's game (and probably mine sometimes), the SFX of that STR being "in play" is that the character has the size, shape and feel of an elephant. The key question for me would be how often the player sought to use the elephantness (would not believe how long it took me to persuade autocorrect that was the word I wanted) and what other thing might people notice that told them this was not a 'real' elephant. I am dancing on the head of a pin with a host of angels here but I think the point is worth rehearsing. 🙂 Doc

You got me!! 🙂

Hmmm. I have money burning a hole in my pocket here.....

So, a player comes to you with a character called Animal Man. I want him to be able to turn into an eagle and fly, to turn into an elephant and be strong, to turn into a tiger and claw people. Do you require shape-shift? Multiform? Or Flight, STR and Killing attack in a three slot multipower that locks each other out? (though the idea of being able to mix and match two from three and get a griffon or roc or wyvern is attractive...)

reading the rules AGAIN. I think you have a problem... 😄

It is an issue if a GM requires a player to purchase Shape-shift when the shifting is really just SFX. It is another place where there is a need for conversations. If the player is going to want to exploit this extensively in game then it is probably appropriate to insist on the shape-shift power or some other method that costs points. If it is all about how things look and might only rarely be exploited - like using your light blast to light up a room in an emergency - then it can be zero cost as part of the main power (or powers) that do have points bought for. It adds some uncertainty to the application of the rules. That is always something to be alert to.

Yup, and for a pretty miniscule addition to the cost, touch will not work either. If you see an old lady and shake her hand, it will look and feel like an old lady. It would require then some other sense, she might smell of musk cat. I think the sixth edition shape shift does address Duke's issues as to the efficacy of the shape-shift. Players will want all-encompassing shape-shift, GMs want shifting with an option for players to notice something. "It is amazing that in every crime scene there is the scent of musk, yet there is no obvious source of the scent" He remains correct that, there are vanishingly few cases where shifting shape is the primary reason for changing shape - it is usually to accomplish something else. Shape-shift is for the character who has doubled down on this as a schtick. It can be done, in more limited ways, by other mechanics but this is the premium service. Doc

I lost track there. Son came and asked me to implement his first home haircut.... .... anyway. I was saying a game needs a way of determining what is real and what is super powered deception. We accept perception rolls for invisibility because we don't want it to be absolute. I think Duke's drive to be about focussing first on game effect is right. If I want to pass investigation by an entymologist that I am a fly, then I use Shapeshift. For 25 points I can look, feel, sound like anything within my weight-class. Growth, NCC (only for appropriate shapes -1) and Shrinking (same limitation) means for that extra 25 points, I can assume the shape of anything from 25cm to 4m and 25g to 800kg. When I really got down to building the power, I reckon I could bring it all in at about 35 points. The same as 22 or less in Disguise and MUCH more useful. An incredible feat (optional rules for fantastical campaigns) is -10 to a roll, so that master of disguise would still have 12- on virtually impossible stuff, the power just does it. And just looking at the rules, it says "Other characters cannot make PER rolls to 'percieve through' shape shift [which kind of undermines bits of my argument - why has noone looked at the rules!] or determine that a person is shapeshifters. They have to detect that Shape Shift is being used in other ways". Hmm. Ground has shifted, huh? Doc

I have not had much call for shapeshifters to be honest. It is a niche product. The only one I built (and noone played) was built on a huge multipower in second edition with several pages of "allowed power sets" that corresponded to particular forms. Never got played so never ran into the problem of noticing if a form was real or not. I was pointing out the real difference (to me) between skills and super-powers. I think it is good for the game to make a distinction. Are you aware of any special-effects man that could achieve something that would make you look like a deer? At a distance, I'll bet that answer is yes. Up close and personal, with someone that knows deer? No chance. Buying a super-power allows you to do stuff normal folk can't. In a comic, that power is absolute, you become the animal. In a game? You need something that gives people a chance. How pissed off would your players be if their stronghold was invaded because Doc Menagerie's minions got in disguised as mosquitoes? What chance did they have to notice those six were not real among the several thousand flying round as it was Northern Canada in the high Summer? Doc

Let me tell you why I might choose to buy shapeshift rather than disguise. As I said, in my head, it is the super-power version of disguise. What does that mean? Well, I am a master of disguise. i can create things that you would not believe are not real. I can walk into a room and look almost a foot taller and a smidgeon smaller than I am. I can create materials that will make you believe that I have fur, or scales or a slimy mucoidal skin. I can create perfumes that will make you believe I really am a musk cat, or lion or antelope. There are limits though. My disguise as an antelope will not allow me to have spindly legs. I might fake that from a distance but not up close. I need time to do these things and access to special materials. I may also need access to special equipment or materials that are not cheap. In other words, even at its most super, this is still a skill and still bound by what >might< be achievable. Shapeshift? In seconds I can look, feel and smell like an antelope. With no access to kit, cash or materials. It just happens. Can I achieve the same effects using other powers, yes, but I would have limitations on them. When Fariq changes into an elephant to access his superstrength then it will be only for the time he is using that strength. I would not allow him to walk about using a tiny fraction of the strength just to look like an elephant. I might be persuaded to do so if there wa some dramatic tension, if there were limits (like it is not a fraction of his strength, he is using the full END cost the whole time, or something else that added to the tension of the room). There is a value in using shapeshift over disguise, just like there is a value in using invisibility over stealth. Though I am now wondering whether shapeshift is a version of invisibility. Both are normally used to go places unnoticed by others... Hmmm... Doc

could also be a test of those effectiveness percentages... 99.9% would be good, 99% makes a big difference... 🙂 I think it was Cory Doctorow who was saying our understanding of risks and percentages get hazy when things get bigger and/or faster... (punning unintended but left in intentionally)

I have another song, Queen, Play the game. So very close to being a bond tune, but even the heavy link to falling in love is not a million miles away...

What folk are telling you is to ignore, for a moment, what the power's SFX are and list the things you want to accomplish. So, for example, "I want to be able to detach my hand and allow it to crawl along and flip switch's, grab things, bring them back to me". That raises some questions that will be related to the SFX. If the hand goes into the next room, can it see? Would you need to also detach an eye? If you fall unconscious, can that hand continue to act? If the hand is attacked, does it hurt you? You can wash and repeat with everything else you want it to achieve. Once you have nailed down the actual things you want to do AND tidied up SFX related questions you will be good to go. In addition, another option might be duplication with variable options. You do your duplication and become two separate entities, one a hand and one a one-handed person. It would be expensive but give you a lot of built-in advantages. Doc

Good man. Hope it all turns out a non-event

I think you slightly contradicted yourself. The game itself suggests GM approval in all kinds of places. Duke's suggestion of the in-game penalty is part of the player GM negotiation that you can have rather than the more stark yes/no situation. I think, if the GM allows it, he allows it at book cost. He is entitled to require penalties and limitations on the power (on the promise of allowing it) but those should reduce the cost (as per rules). I am all for a GMs companion to the HERO rules. It would be a great discursive book, talking about the full rules and how to implement them to run a game. All we need is an eloquent author with an in-depth knowledge of the rules and an inclination to put it all down on paper. @DeanShomshak, I am looking at you.... Doc

Well, in Shadowplay, by Alan Moore and Bill Sienkiewicz, one of two graphic novels in a book called Brought to Light they were talking deaths caused by the cold war. They extrapolated numbers in terms of swimming pools of blood (that is an adult human body has one gallon of blood with each pool representing 20,000 dead). The imagery in the story is quite stark...

It is a fine point of detail but it is less that the UK banned the stuff, we just have not come to a positive decision to allow it to be used. All medicines allowed to be used have to go through some analysis by NICE that shows they are efficacious for the money they cost (side effects and the treatment of those would come into the equation). Doc

And a lot of people use Yanks, which annoys more than half the population (as my short tenure in Tennessee taught me!). 🙂