Damage Negation

[Uthanar]

I am wondering how people's experience with Damage Negation has been.

 

In my Champions game we have been shifting things around on people's characters this week. I took our Brick and just blocked out points with Resistant Protection instead of the combo Resistant Protection/Damage Negation that she had.

 

Now that we are settled on how things look with the character we were talking about converting back to Damage Negation and got into a talk of what it did over Resistant Protection.

 

My understanding of it is that Damage Negation effectively prevents 3.5 Damage (average of a single D6) while the same value in Resistant Protection would provide 3.33. So based on my understanding DN is a better value than Resistant Protection. On top of that it is effectively infinitely Hardened and Impenetrable (since those Advantages do not affect DN) as well as providing -2m of Knockback Resistance.

 

Am I missing something on Resistant Protection!? Am I overcalculating what Damage Negation does!?

 

Thanks for help and answers.

 

PS> I also noted that Damage Negation also protects the subject from body damage a little better.

[Christopher]

One factor you forgot: You don't need nearly as much Resistant defenses, as you need total defenses (normal + resistent)

In Superheroics, Normal Damage is the way of the world. The high allowances for Resistant defenses only exist to make Killing Damage unpractical.

 

In order to negate the average output 12DC of Blast you only need 42 normal Defense. Wich costs 42 Points. At the same time anything beyond 24 normal Defense means you won't take Body damage even on teh highest Roll.

If you only defend using DN you need 60 AP of DN and compeltely negate all. But the second the enemy adds even +1 DC (maneuvers, CSL) you will take Body and Stun damage.

If in a superhero game your character takes body from normal damage attacks, you are either Knocked out or your defenses are faulty.

 

The goal in superheroics is to stun and K.O. each other, without causing Body damage.

[Uthanar]

Yeah, but that is comparing it to non-Resistant Protections. The exact same factor applies to DN and RP for those effects, which would seem to make it null and void in a comparison of the two, though I do appreciate the insight that you brought with your commentary.

[Hyper-Man]

Don't forget how cheap the counter to it is.

 

75 Blast 13d6, Reduced Negation (5) - END=7

 

That's 10 points to negate 25 Active Points of Damage Negation.

 

Here are some example slots from my starting version of Superman's VPP:

 

14) The Man of Steel: Damage Negation (-6 DCs Physical, -6 DCs Energy) (60 Active Points); Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; Only to Activate; -1/4) Real Cost: 30

Notes: Damage Negation also effectively functions as Knockback Resistance.

 

26) Super Punching v2: Hand-To-Hand Attack +6d6 (Reduced Negation (6)), Armor Piercing (6e damage prorating rules mean that 45 STR adds +7DC.; +1/4) (52 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4) Real Cost: 30

[Christopher]

Yeah' date=' but that is comparing it to non-Resistant Protections. The exact same factor applies to DN and RP for those effects, which would seem to make it null and void in a comparison of the two, though I do appreciate the insight that you brought with your commentary.[/quote']

The goal in Superheroes is not to take no damage - it is to not take Body damage. BODY Damage takes months to heal, not phases. Stun is the way to win or loose. The only way for DN to prevent BODY is to prevent all damage. DN alone just isn't a suiteable defense. It is extremely expensive to prevent all damage and the second it is overcome you will take Body damage.

 

Resistant shouldn't even enter the calcualtion at all. Killing attacks are the norm in Heroic games, but are absolutely not expected in Superhero games.

If you have a KA in Superheroes, it is there to break Entangles, Barriers, Foci, Material manifestation and the odd "Robot/Zombie/Demon" that isn't considered living under the Character CvK. Not to attack other PC or NPC with them! A bunch of example characters don't even a single KA and most don't have a reliably useable KA, one with nearly 12 DC or have a explicit CvK (for all others restraint is implied). The genre uses Energy Weapons instead of Slugthrowers because Energieweapons can be "normal Damage only". If it is KA, it often is that the SFX would make it seem unlogical to make it normal Damage.

 

Taking the default Champions and thier Foes from Champions 6E (all have a 12 DC or more Normal Damage Attack):

Defender: 9 DC RKA, x4 End, Burnout Roll

Ironclad: 12 DC with STR + HKA, explicit CvK

Kinetik: 6 DC (inlcudes Penetrating) + Move through/by bonus

Saphhire: no KA

Witchcraft: no KA, except 5/8 DC (with STR) Dagger explictly when Fighting Demons "where the CvK does not apply"

Armadillo: 12 DC RKA (incl. x2 Armor Piercing), Activation Roll; 9 DC HKA (incl. AP)

Green Dragon: 8 DC HKA

Ogre: No KA

Pulsar: No KA

Tachyon: 12 DC RKA (inlcudes x2 penetrating)

Talisman: 5 DC RKA, Constant, reduced END, Uncontrolled

Agent Arechtype: 2 Setting Blasterifle and martial Arts, no KA

Alien Invader: 6 DC RKA, 10 DC normal Damage and Drain attacks

Demon: HKA Claws and HKA Damage Shield (only without normal Damage Attack, but also not considered "living" for others)

Mole-Man: No KA

Ninja: 9 DC HKA & RKA, 7 DC Normal Damage attack

Robot: 8 DC RKA, but also Entagle, 8 DC Blast and 12 DC normal Damage Grenade Launcher

Soldier & Street Thug: Guns & Knifes, hence only 6 DC KA

Zombie: No KA

[bigbywolfe]

Yeah' date=' but that is comparing it to non-Resistant Protections. The exact same factor applies to DN and RP for those effects, which would seem to make it null and void in a comparison of the two, though I do appreciate the insight that you brought with your commentary.[/quote']

The goal in Superheroes is not to take no damage - it is to not take Body damage. BODY Damage takes months to heal, not phases. Stun is the way to win or loose. The only way for DN to prevent BODY is to prevent all damage. DN alone just isn't a suiteable defense. It is extremely expensive to prevent all damage and the second it is overcome you will take Body damage.

 

Resistant shouldn't even enter the calcualtion at all. Killing attacks are the norm in Heroic games, but are absolutely not expected in Superhero games.

If you have a KA in Superheroes, it is there to break Entangles, Barriers, Foci, Material manifestation and the odd "Robot/Zombie/Demon" that isn't considered living under the Character CvK. Not to attack other PC or NPC with them! A bunch of example characters don't even a single KA and most don't have a reliably useable KA, one with nearly 12 DC or have a explicit CvK (for all others restraint is implied). The genre uses Energy Weapons instead of Slugthrowers because Energieweapons can be "normal Damage only". If it is KA, it often is that the SFX would make it seem unlogical to make it normal Damage.

 

Taking the default Champions and thier Foes from Champions 6E (all have a 12 DC or more Normal Damage Attack):

Defender: 9 DC RKA, x4 End, Burnout Roll

Ironclad: 12 DC with STR + HKA, explicit CvK

Kinetik: 6 DC (inlcudes Penetrating) + Move through/by bonus

Saphhire: no KA

Witchcraft: no KA, except 5/8 DC (with STR) Dagger explictly when Fighting Demons "where the CvK does not apply"

Armadillo: 12 DC RKA (incl. x2 Armor Piercing), Activation Roll; 9 DC HKA (incl. AP)

Green Dragon: 8 DC HKA

Ogre: No KA

Pulsar: No KA

Tachyon: 12 DC RKA (inlcudes x2 penetrating)

Talisman: 5 DC RKA, Constant, reduced END, Uncontrolled

Agent Arechtype: 2 Setting Blasterifle and martial Arts, no KA

Alien Invader: 6 DC RKA, 10 DC normal Damage and Drain attacks

Demon: HKA Claws and HKA Damage Shield (only without normal Damage Attack, but also not considered "living" for others)

Mole-Man: No KA

Ninja: 9 DC HKA & RKA, 7 DC Normal Damage attack

Robot: 8 DC RKA, but also Entagle, 8 DC Blast and 12 DC normal Damage Grenade Launcher

Soldier & Street Thug: Guns & Knifes, hence only 6 DC KA

Zombie: No KA

Resistant shouldn't even enter the calcualtion at all. Killing attacks are the norm in Heroic games, but are absolutely not expected in Superhero games.

If you have a KA in Superheroes, it is there to break Entangles, Barriers, Foci, Material manifestation and the odd "Robot/Zombie/Demon" that isn't considered living under the Character CvK. Not to attack other PC or NPC with them!

 

This is an extremely campaign/play-style specific statement and simply put is not universally true.

[Hyper-Man]

re: Killing Attacks and PC's

Player characters with Killing Attacks and CvK become one of the best "villains" when they are mind controlled/possessed. Then the GM can show how frickin' powerful they really are. Example: ANY comic story where Superman has been mind controlled (Heat Vision!).

[psyber624]

Another way to put it is for DN to prevent you from taking body damage from a 12 DC attack it would cost you 60 AP, for rPD to protect you from body only requires 36 AP. The difference is even more pronounced when you realize that a mere 21 AP in rPD will prevent all the Body from MOST 12 DC attacks where anything less than a full 60 AP of DN will result in you taking some Body from every attack.

 

Stun works out a bit differently and DN is slightly cheaper at negating ALL Stun but especially as the DC's increase your getting diminishing returns trying to be "immune" to Stun in this fashion as higher and higher totals become more and more less likely.

 

On a different note, I always wondered how DN works with "Drain STUN" and "Drain BODY" attacks. According to 6e1 DN affects them but as they are not Energy or Physical, and you have to buy DN to affect one or the other (or buy it twice), how would this work vs the Drains? if you have both Physical DN and Energy DN would you add them together if you were attacked by a Drain? Take the highest of the two? Or something else I am missing here?

[Christopher]

I had a realisation how to show how DN-only defense is really bad. Let's asume you have 10 Levels/DC of DN and are attacked by a 12 DC Normal Damage attack (or any other "2 DC more" situation):

Chances are you are at negative body and bleeding to death before you are even Knocked Out from Stun damage! (6 hits = 12 BODY damage, 42 STUN Damage minus 1-2 Recoveries)

If you only defend via DN, any attack that can get your Character Stunned will kill your Character in 2-3 hits!

 

I doubt there are many (or any styles) of Superheroic games where this should be true! Usually they keep hitting each other until one side is Stunned and/or Knocked out, without even breaking a bone or getting more then cuts.

[Grailknight]

Damage Negation just like Damage Reduction is a supplement to a character's PD/ED defenses not a replacement. You never see any characters with 2 PD/ED and 3/4 DR so why would you expect any with 2 PD/ED and 12d6 DN. The real question is what balance you strike with PD/ED and DR, DN , or both in your higher end characters. Damage Negation is better than Damage Reduction against smaller attacks, even to slightly better against average attacks and starts to lose ground when the really big guns show up.

 

The trick is to balance PD/ED with DN and not make a character that is immune to damage

[Uthanar]

Sorry if I confused folks on this, but never was I trying to say that an all DN defense would be a good thing. When I quickly statted up a PC Contact who had been infected with something and become a villain because of it, I grabbed the Brick DN from the Champions book. I quickly found that it was letting Body through.

 

As for KAs and Body damage being extremely rare, I have never played more than 2 sesisons of Champions with anyone other than my group. We kinda stumble through and Killing Attacks do occur at the table. It all depends on the villain that they are fighting.

 

The first individual that they fought had Body Control similar to T-1000, and shoved his arm through one of the heroes. He maintained at 2 Body for the next 4 weeks of game while they tried to deal with things. Made a memorable story, but also made us aware of some of the dangers of things.

 

Thanks for the replies!

 

 

[Zephrosyne]

I had a realisation how to show how DN-only defense is really bad. Let's asume you have 10 Levels/DC of DN and are attacked by a 12 DC Normal Damage attack (or any other "2 DC more" situation):

Chances are you are at negative body and bleeding to death before you are even Knocked Out from Stun damage! (6 hits = 12 BODY damage, 42 STUN Damage minus 1-2 Recoveries)

If you only defend via DN, any attack that can get your Character Stunned will kill your Character in 2-3 hits!

 

I doubt there are many (or any styles) of Superheroic games where this should be true! Usually they keep hitting each other until one side is Stunned and/or Knocked out, without even breaking a bone or getting more then cuts.

 

 

I must be missing something with your example because the character being attacked would have the 2 PD/2ED that comes by default for free so the 2 BODY from each attack would be absorbed by his default PD/ED. Granted, I do agree that all Damage Negation and no investment in PD/ED isn't a great idea but I don't get how your example demonstrates the defender being killed at all, let alone before being knocked unconscious from Stun damage, unless you example assumes the character also sells back his base PD and ED. Now if that 12 DC was a Killing Attack as opposed to a Normal Damage attack, I can see it. What am I missing?

[Hyper-Man]

Taking the dive into using Damage Negation should follow the same rules as real diving. Always bring a buddy in case one buddy has an issue.

 

DN isn't so great by itself but it IS a great 'icing-on-top' when combined with more traditional defenses. I used it as a VPP slot with my version of Superman (export 1, export 2) to portray the common situation of him getting knocked down by a continuous attack* (ray-beam, 50cal machine gun, etc..) and then 'steeling' himself to the pain to get up and walk towards the source of the attack now seemingly immune to the damage.

 

[Uthanar]

Taking the dive into using Damage Negation should follow the same rules as real diving. Always bring a buddy in case one buddy has an issue.

 

DN isn't so great by itself but it IS a great 'icing-on-top' when combined with more traditional defenses. I used it as a VPP slot with my version of Superman (export 1, export 2) to portray the common situation of him getting knocked down by a continuous attack* (ray-beam, 50cal machine gun, etc..) and then 'steeling' himself to the pain to get up and walk towards the source of the attack now seemingly immune to the damage.

That is a great example of a way to represent it Hyper-Man. I enjoyed the JLA that you put up, and hope to see more characters. It caused me to reevaluate a few characters and provide more VPPs for Electricity, Speed, and Attack Tricks on the characters that we play every week. Up until then I had avoided VPPs based on the warnings and treated them as something sacred to Green Lantern rings.

[Killer Shrike]

Thoughts On Damage Negation , from back when 6e came out.

[Hyper-Man]

Taking the dive into using Damage Negation should follow the same rules as real diving. Always bring a buddy in case one buddy has an issue.

 

DN isn't so great by itself but it IS a great 'icing-on-top' when combined with more traditional defenses. I used it as a VPP slot with my version of Superman (export 1, export 2) to portray the common situation of him getting knocked down by a continuous attack* (ray-beam, 50cal machine gun, etc..) and then 'steeling' himself to the pain to get up and walk towards the source of the attack now seemingly immune to the damage.

Yeah. Just fleshing out possible VPP slots in advance for any character is always a good thing. Oddly, I have the hardest time doing it for the least limited characters like Green Lantern and Zatanna. Maybe it's the 'naming' of the slots. That was easiest with Superman and Flash but became harder to not be repetitive with characters like Captain Marvel. How many variations of 'big green energy construct' can you really use?

[bigdamnhero]

The other advantage of DN compared to other defenses, it is doesn't matter how lucky you roll. If you have enough PD to stop an average 8d6 Blast, you will still take some damage from above-average rolls. So you'll probably be fine against a handful of attacks, but take enough hits and the damage will start to pile up. But with 8DCs of DN, you can walk through an army of 8d6 blasters unscathed.

 

I like DN best when it's applied to a specific type of attack, effectively creating Immunity to _____. Or conversely, if it doesn't apply against certain attacks, like silver vs a werewolf.

[psyber624]

The other advantage of DN compared to other defenses, it is doesn't matter how lucky you roll. If you have enough PD to stop an average 8d6 Blast, you will still take some damage from above-average rolls. So you'll probably be fine against a handful of attacks, but take enough hits and the damage will start to pile up. But with 8DCs of DN, you can walk through an army of 8d6 blasters unscathed.

 

I like DN best when it's applied to a specific type of attack, effectively creating Immunity to _____. Or conversely, if it doesn't apply against certain attacks, like silver vs a werewolf.

Of course don't forget the difference in cost. 1 Die of DN is 5 points. Thats enough to buy 5 points of PD or ED which will have basically the same effect on 5 out of 6 rolls and that's with one Die's worth, and with multiple dice the odds of DN doing better on a Point per Point basis drop even lower.

 

Then there is the fact that DN is FAR worse against killing attacks than rPD/rED. It takes 15 points of DN to stop 1 die of Killing Damage, but only 9 points of rPD/rED to do the same (vs ANY roll of the dice) for the Body at least. Add in 6 pts of PD/ED (to bring the costs level) and it also prevents all but the highest of Stun Rolls (5-6 on the Body die then 3 on the Stun X die are required to get STUN past that level of Defenses, so only 1 in 9 rolls will result in it not stopping all of it).

 

This basically shows that DN is slightly better than at stopping Stun Damage (for high rolls of Stun) but blatantly worse at stopping Body Damage (regardless of the roll).

[bigdamnhero]

If you're using Hit Locations, then DN can make a huge difference there, since it's subtracted before location modifiers. So a called headshot can't overload your defenses the way it can with conventional Def.

[dmjalund]

also, DN reduces Knockback, other defenses don't

[Armitage]

I've toyed with the idea of using Damage Negation to distinguish between flexible and rigid armor, kind of like the Light Armor and Heavy Armor in Godlike and Wild Talents.

 

Resistant Protection is flexible armor like Kevlar, chain mail, super-tough skin, or a superhero's bulletproof Spandex costume. It resists penetration, but still deforms and transfers kinetic energy to the wearer. i.e. You don't take BODY, but probably still take STUN.

 

Damage Negation is rigid armor like battlesuits, plate armor, or skin covered with metal or slabs of stone. If an attack isn't powerful enough to penetrate, it bounces off with no effect. If it can get through, the excess tears into your vulnerable flesh underneath.

[Lucius]

I've toyed with the idea of using Damage Negation to distinguish between flexible and rigid armor, kind of like the Light Armor and Heavy Armor in Godlike and Wild Talents.

 

Resistant Protection is flexible armor like Kevlar, chain mail, super-tough skin, or a superhero's bulletproof Spandex costume. It resists penetration, but still deforms and transfers kinetic energy to the wearer. i.e. You don't take BODY, but probably still take STUN.

 

Damage Negation is rigid armor like battlesuits, plate armor, or skin covered with metal or slabs of stone. If an attack isn't powerful enough to penetrate, it bounces off with no effect. If it can get through, the excess tears into your vulnerable flesh underneath.

 

Well reasoned.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants to Negate the crab cannon

[Hyper-Man]

Bumping for new members (*recent question in Rules Forum).

[dmjalund]

Only Steve can answer in the ri\ules forum, and probably won't because he may consider it a philosphical question.

 

One difference is that damage negated by Damage Negation does not count towartds knockback