How would you build resistant to being made prone?

[TheDarkness]

So, if you were building Pyramid Sam(whose secret identity is an Amway distributor), a man you just can't knock over, how would you build him?

[Hyper-Man]

Density Increase.

 

HM

[Lucius]

 

Weebles wobble, but they don't fall down:

 

Weeble: (Total: 13 Active Cost, 4 Real Cost) Teleportation 1m, Position Shift, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; Being Thrown, Tripped, Knocked Down, Bowled Over, or otherwise at risk of being prone; +3/4) (13 Active Points); Limited Power Only useful to Not Fall Down (-1), Restrainable (-1/2), Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4), no Noncombat movement (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4)

 

 

If you don't want to fall even if stunned or knocked out:

 

Stubborn Weeble: (Total: 15 Active Cost, 5 Real Cost) Teleportation 1m, Position Shift, Persistent (+1/4), Inherent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Constant (+1/2) (15 Active Points); Limited Power Only useful to Not Fall Down (-1), Restrainable (-1/2), Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4), no Noncombat movement (-1/4) (Real Cost: 5)

 

 

If you can't even LAY down and have to sleep standing, then:

 

Sleepless Weeble: (Total: 15 Active Cost, 4 Real Cost) Teleportation 1m, Position Shift, Persistent (+1/4), Inherent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Constant (+1/2) (15 Active Points); Limited Power Only useful to Not Fall Down (-1), Restrainable (-1/2), Always On (-1/2), Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4), no Noncombat movement (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4)

 

(you shave off a point but probably have to buy Life Support: Does not Sleep)

 

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary claims falling over is an inevitable consequence of being bipedal

[Hyper-Man]

A Self Only Barrier would also work.

 

HM

[bigdamnhero]

How about Breakfall with Triggered by being knocked down? Mechanically every time he's knocked down he immediately gets back up again, but the sfx is that he doesn't get knocked down in the first place.

 

That or a lot of KBR, Only to prevent getting knocked down. (ie - he can still get knocked back).

 

I'd have to run the numbers but I suspect Lucius' Teleportation-based power might actually be cheaper.

[TheDarkness]

How about Breakfall with Triggered by being knocked down? Mechanically every time he's knocked down he immediately gets back up again, but the sfx is that he doesn't get knocked down in the first place.

 

That or a lot of KBR, Only to prevent getting knocked down. (ie - he can still get knocked back).

 

I'd have to run the numbers but I suspect Lucius' Teleportation-based power might actually be cheaper.

The other advantage of his is that KBR would not work against things making you prone through change environment. Which would include throws and sweeps.

[massey]

Triggered position shift.

[TheDarkness]

First, anyone who can build three builds off of weebles is okay in my book.

 

So, cool stuff.

 

Let's say that the ground is covered in spikes. So, all the previous builds would entail getting horribly mutilated and then being teleported or position shifted or kipping up to a standing position, and then holding my spleen so that it won't fall out while wondering why I chose to fight in a deadly spike factory's display area.

 

How to build the weeble for that situation? +OCV only against attacks that make me prone? Let's assume it doesn't have to be guaranteed protection.

[Lord Liaden]

Personally I would dispute your spikes example if the Trigger for the Power is that it goes off when the character is hit with an attack which would knock him down, rather than actually being knocked down and then getting back up. Even in the Breakfall example, the spike-covered floor is a rare enough condition that I would probably rule the Special Effects of the Power would trump a strict mechanical interpretation of the attack.

[TheDarkness]

Personally I would dispute your spikes example if the Trigger for the Power is that it goes off when the character is hit with an attack which would knock him down, rather than actually being knocked down and then getting back up. Even in the Breakfall example, the spike-covered floor is a rare enough condition that I would probably rule the Special Effects of the Power would trump a strict mechanical interpretation of the attack.

Okay, this is where I become confused. While these builds prevent remaining prone, am I to understand it that they also prevent the damage from a throw, for example?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Knockback resistance should work, just prevents a certain level of "being knocked over" from a power.

 

You can also buy 1m of flight or teleport with Position shift and instantly get up without requiring the half move, but only on your phase.

 

But it would depend on how the power was built.  For example if it was "roll dice and count the body" then kb resist works.  If its "telekinesis throw only to knock down" its going to be strength to resist, and so on. If a brand new power was created to incapacitate targets temporarily, then it would probably involve designing what prevents the power from working as well.

[bigdamnhero]

Okay, this is where I become confused. While these builds prevent remaining prone, am I to understand it that they also prevent the damage from a throw, for example?

Not per RAW, no. But for rare situations like the spike-covered floor, as a GM I'd probably be willing to handwave it under the heading of sfx.

 

Throws are another matter, especially since they're much more common. So let me ask: what's the effect we're trying to build from? Judo John goes to throw Pyramid Sam and fails because...why?

[TheDarkness]

Not per RAW, no. But for rare situations like the spike-covered floor, as a GM I'd probably be willing to handwave it under the heading of sfx.

 

Throws are another matter, especially since they're much more common. So let me ask: what's the effect we're trying to build from? Judo John goes to throw Pyramid Sam and fails because...why?

No, I was asking about the throw because for most of the builds, in the case of throw, sweep, etc., I was presuming that the damage would still occur for the maneuver. So it threw me off when you were talking about writing off damage related to conditions (which I presumed the cause would be a throw or sweep or what have you, but never stated outright). So I'd assumed you'd almost have to allow the damage for spikes, since that would probably be the point of someone doing it to the character/NPC.

 

Now, if the character accidentally fell, I could see writing it off.

 

Anyway, I was just thrown off by that, but I did not actually mention the conditions that caused the prone state, so I understand what you're getting at.

 

I'm actually more trying to understand builds that involve prone, and confirm what aspects I do understand with the help of the forums.

[TheDarkness]

So, is it fair to say, for actual resistance to being made prone(as opposed to recovery of standing status), the main factors are:

 

1) If it's knockback, anything that raises a character's values versus the attack roll, and/or resist knockback, added stun vs. KB, etc. to resist the KB rolled

 

2) If it's based off of Change environment, only the attack roll can be resisted, the actual result is not alterable(even if the prone result is only for just a nanosecond, as the above builds would do)?

 

The second part is really the one that confuses me, as I'm half expecting that change environment would do it, but be pricey, but I don't get how or how not.

[bigdamnhero]

I hate to be the one harping on the Reason From Effect card, but you still haven't described what is the effect you're trying to model. I can't tell you how being Thrown affects Pyramid Dude without knowing why Pyramid Dude can't be knocked down. What are you trying to model? If he's some amoeba-like form that doesn't have a prone, then he would take damage from hitting the ground but it wouldn't affect his ability to move & act. If he has some sort of internal gyroscope so that he always lands on his feet, then maybe he's actually immune to being Thrown altogether, which is something completely different.

[Lucius]

Resist Being Prone to (blank): (Total: 15 Active Cost, 7 Real Cost) +5 with EGO Roll, Uncontrolled (+1/2) (15 Active Points); Limited Power Only to resist own Psychological Complications (-1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4) (Real Cost: 7)

 

With a little mental effort to put yourself on guard against your own tendencies, you can be more resistant to whatever actions or reactions you are usually prone to.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I'm prone to putting a palindromedary in every tagline.

[Hyper-Man]

Here's a simplification of the earlier examples provided by Lucius.

 

Technically, the Position Shift Adder is only an option for Flight and Teleportation but I'm wondering why a minimum 1m of either form of movement is actually required to purchase the Adder. I couldn't think of a really good reason besides Drains so here it is:

 

5 I Get Knocked Down But I get up again You're never going to keep me down: Custom Power - Naked Position Shift Adder (5 Active Points)

[Notes: Characters with unusual Movement Powers (such as Flight or Teleportation) can use those powers to get to their feet as a Zero Phase Action after being knocked down, and without moving any distance, if they buy this +5 Character Point Adder. See also 6E1 302 regarding Teleportation.] - END=1

 

This only affects the character when they take their Phase actions.  The reduction to their DCV still occurs.  A number of PSL's vs being Prone = to half their normal DCV would also be needed.

 

HM

[Christopher]

So, if you were building Pyramid Sam(whose secret identity is an Amway distributor), a man you just can't knock over, how would you build him?

Do not think about "being Prone" as exactly "dropped to the ground".

 

If you are tripped while flying you are not dropping down to the ground uncontrollably. Your flight power is still working, so you are still hovering in the air on both your phases and off-segments until you take the proper actions to "recover from being prone".

You are however still off-balance so all the penalties for "being prone" (the game state) apply to your CV's.

 

Even if the character is immune to be literally dropped on his behind, could he still be put off-balance?

[TheDarkness]

I hate to be the one harping on the Reason From Effect card, but you still haven't described what is the effect you're trying to model. I can't tell you how being Thrown affects Pyramid Dude without knowing why Pyramid Dude can't be knocked down. What are you trying to model? If he's some amoeba-like form that doesn't have a prone, then he would take damage from hitting the ground but it wouldn't affect his ability to move & act. If he has some sort of internal gyroscope so that he always lands on his feet, then maybe he's actually immune to being Thrown altogether, which is something completely different.

The issue is, I'm not actually trying to build a character from this, it is a few questions that are helping me understand how builds for being made prone are often done, what options are often used, etc.

 

I'd say, a good percentage of the time, they would suffice for a man who is hard to knock over, but they would not fulfill the effect against being thrown, tripped, etc. This is not to say they wouldn't be good builds for such a character, that depends on how closely to the desired effect one wanted the power.

 

So, I think there are a number of clear answers for how to build a character who, if conscious, is unlikely to STAY prone. For many uses, this would suffice to sub for 'cannot be put down'.

 

The second question, a character who is resistant or immune to the effect of being MADE prone. If made prone, he does not need to have a power that makes him standing again, he is resistant or effectively immune to the effect of being made prone, not being prone.

 

With knockback, it is clear how to make a character resistant to it. Immune would be costly, but the overall building is balanced and clear.

 

With builds from change environment, it seems quite a bit more difficult. Countering whatever attack roll is easy to model, and thus is probably the simplest option. Countering the effect is not, at least based on my understanding.

 

So, the first part of this thread built 'the good man you can't keep down'. Now, the same powers, effect wise, could be used to model 'the man you can't put down', except for in the case of things that cause a player to become prone and have a second result as part of it(so, for instance, if I've made a man who is incredibly hard to make prone, but every time he is thrown, we say the game effect is that he was never not standing, yet he takes damage from the throws, this will probably be problematic for someone who actually wants to be hard to take off his feet.

[TheDarkness]

Do not think about "being Prone" as exactly "dropped to the ground".

 

If you are tripped while flying you are not dropping down to the ground uncontrollably. Your flight power is still working, so you are still hovering in the air on both your phases and off-segments until you take the proper actions to "recover from being prone".

You are however still off-balance so all the penalties for "being prone" (the game state) apply to your CV's.

 

Even if the character is immune to be literally dropped on his behind, could he still be put off-balance?

Yes.

[Surrealone]

The second question, a character who is resistant or immune to the effect of being MADE prone. If made prone, he does not need to have a power that makes him standing again, he is resistant or effectively immune to the effect of being made prone, not being prone.

If Pyramid Sam is (as his name implies) physically shaped like a pyramid ... presumably one whose sides are equilateral triangles ... then you seem to be tackling this as if he isn't a Weeble Wobble .... presumably because you think that there is no prone for him because all of his sides are exactly the same.  Is this correct?  

 

If so, then allow me to direct you to a key portion of Google's response regarding the meaning of prone: "lying flat, especially face downward".  Other online dictionaries have similar detail  (Merriam-Webster says, "having the front or ventral surface downward", for example...) The red emphasis was added by me to draw your eye to the idea that even if Pyramid Sam is shaped like a pyramid whose sides are equilateral triangles, he presumably still has a 'head' ... and a side that would be associated with some sort of locomotive process (hovering?).

 

With that concept in mind, I'd be prone (pun intended) to ruling that because Pyramid Sam has one pointy end which is his 'head' ... and a side (directly opposite the 'head') associated with locomotion ... that despite his pyramidal shape, the concept of prone is still very applicable to Pyramid Sam.  Due to the ultra-stable nature of Pyramid Sam's physical shape, I'd also expect him to have piles of KBR ... but with a 'head' that can be shifted such that it's face downward or in contact with the ground rather than his locomotive side being ground-facing ... I'd expect him to be able to be able to be made prone.

 

However, if Pyramid Sam doesn't have a 'head' or a locomotive side ... meaning, I suspect, that whatever side faces down is the locomotive side and whatever side is up is the 'head' ... then I believe the triggered T-port with position shift builds (only to keep character from being 'prone') that were proposed above ... are the right approach when bought to 0 END with Persistent & Inherent.  Key to this is that a triggered T-port build seems mechanically correct for SFX wherein the 'head' and locomotive sides shift as the pyramid rotates.  (I.e. Think of it as Teleporting the 'head' and locomotive sides where they should be on the pyramid ... rather than as teleporting the character from a prone position to a non-prone one.)

 

You could also do this exact same thing (move the 'head' and locomotive side) with Shapeshift instead of Teleport ... but I suspect it would cost a lot more (an unreasonable amount more, IMHO) given how Shapeshift works.

 

IMPORTANT:

If neither assumption is correct (i.e. Pyramid Sam doesn't have anything that could be deemed a 'head' or a 'locomotive side' ... AT ALL ... so there's no 'head' to face downward ... and no 'head' to Teleport to the uppermost pointy end of the pyramid) ... then you're going to have to give us some more information as to how one would recognize Pyramid Sam as a character with whom we could interact ... because with no 'head' or 'locomotive side' ... he's looking a lot like a stone pyramid and less like an actual character; whatever communicative process, locomotive processes, and sensory processes he has would need to be detailed to give us an idea of what we're working with since 'prone' is all about the orientation of such things relative to the ground.

[TheDarkness]

He's not pyramid shaped, he's just a guy with a power and a silly name derived from that power, that he's incredibly stable.

 

Now, if you can make him prone, he's prone. It's the making him that way that is intended to be the problem, though the above powers would, in many cases, effects wise work for that, in a large number, they don't.

[Surrealone]

He's not pyramid shaped, he's just a guy with a power and a silly name derived from that power, that he's incredibly stable.

 

Now, if you can make him prone, he's prone. It's the making him that way that is intended to be the problem, though the above powers would, in many cases, effects wise work for that, in a large number, they don't.

You're kinda moving the cheese around while we're nibbling on it, because earlier you said:

"The second question, a character who is resistant or immune to the effect of being MADE prone. If made prone, he does not need to have a power that makes him standing again, he is resistant or effectively immune to the effect of being made prone, not being prone"

 

I don't think a wise GM would permit 'just a guy with a power' who has a head on shoulders (a la normal humanoids) to be immune to the effect of being prone.  I could actually see it being permitted with a pyramid-shaped guy whose 'head' and 'locomotive side' shift properly -- since that physiology is so alien that it sorta makes sense ... and it gives up lots of other things, like hands, opposable thumbs, etc.

 

Since you're toying with the concept, would you please explain WHY this guy is immune to the effects suffered by others when their feet and head are on the same plane with the sensory organs of the head facing down -- when his head/feet are in those positions.  I really think that's important to know ... so that we can get a clear picture of what you want to model ... and whether a sane GM would even consider it.

 

Pyramid Sam's face is in the dirt and it doesn't affect him like it affects everyone else: why?  Does he have some special sense that lets him overcome every aspect of being prone?  Is it reflexes?  Let's start from effect and work back like we're supposed to, here.  In order to do so, describe the effect of this immunity without using the word prone or the rules associated with being prone ... and tell us how others perceive/see this immunity/effect.

​

[TheDarkness]

"The second question, a character who is resistant or immune to the effect of being MADE prone. If made prone, he does not have a power that makes him standing again, he is just resistant or effectively immune(EITHER ONE IS FINE) to the effect of BEING MADE prone, NOT to BEING prone"

 

There, took out the confusing bit, that should make sense. So, if MADE prone, he's as prone as anyone else. It's getting him there that's the problem. The problem with the previous builds for that purpose is it's a strain on the narrative if he gets thrown as much as anyone else, there is no saying, "well, the effect is he was never thrown, even though he keeps taking damage from it."

 

As for why, could be any of a number of reasons. Odin gave him the power. Radioactive isotopes in his baby formula gave him an unnatural sense of balance. His ring once belonged to the Weeble Wizard.

 

For a canonical reference to someone with a similar power, I'm trying to recall the X-Men villain who could not be moved. The Juggernaut? However, that is much simpler to model, since, unless I'm missing one, all the powers that could be used to do this are modeled on KB and STR.

 

Versus KD it's also simple. Versus all of the combat maneuvers, it's complicated, because their effect is absolute and not modeled on STR OR KB. This is why earlier, I mentioned the attack roll being the one part that can be affected, having a higher DCV versus the attempt. Versus the effect, since there is no roll and the effect is absolute, I'm not sure how one approaches that, undoubtedly Change Environment again.

[CptPatriot]

If I may, what about how you writeup immunity to being prone for a creature like the Blob(1958), that doesn't appear to be able to 'go prone.'