Normal Human

[jtelson]

Re: Normal Human

 

jtelson' date=' on the other hand, believes the character is disadvantaged by lacking the [i']potential[/i] to buy up those abilities limited by NCM without paying double. Yet only characters not taking advantage of that potential, or using a workaround, ever take the disadvantage.

 

My position is a bit more complicated than that. In a setting in which Characteristc expenditures are unbounded (or less bounded) not purchasing Characteristics to the level expected and surrendering the option to do so during character development is disadvantageous.

 

Only acts 2/3 of average times, is stunned more easily, pays additional points for movement (+50% for same velocity - based on lower speed), lower base skill checks, lower base CVs etc

[nexus]

Re: Normal Human

 

My experience with NCM has been like this. I've had a few characters with it in Champions games and, over the long run, they've lagged behind. Characteristics seem to be very point efficient investments compared to skills and skill levels, particularly Strength, Dexterity and Intelligence and the NCM characters ended either being extremely focused or lagging significantly behind over the course of the games even if they didn't start that far behind. Even the more focused fell behind in performance, particularly combatwise. Speed hurt here a great deal.

 

IME, NCM is one of the few Disadvantages that is brought off with experience when, again, IME, most players don't buy off Disadvantages when they can get something new. I've found it to be a functional Disadvantage in play though I haven't run any sort of mathematical analysis. To continue the CAK comparison I've definitely seen it be more limiting than CAK is in more campaigns. Yes, it can be abused but so can allot of things and that's what the GM is there for.

 

This is assuming unbounded characteristic purchase is allowed. My game style has changed over the years and I try to keep characteristics in a more "reasonable" range NCM is less limiting in those campaigns though I still use a version of it if the PCs can expect to face opposition that isn't as restricted in characteristics

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

How is it that a build that reduces the character's STR from 60 to 40' date=' or his SPD from 8 to 6, not a valid disadvantage? Those florist friars are much more disadvantaged than any character I have ever seen built with the NCM disadvantage![/quote']

 

Only Hugh can prevent Florist Friars!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary asks, but does he want to?

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

In the unlikely event that I actually run a game' date=' NCM is either not allowed, or applied to everyone for free. Otherwise, what's to stop someone from looking at their sheet, noticing that none of their characteristics are over 20, and taking NCM for free points?[/quote']

 

You.

 

That's right! You can make sure that every character subject to NCM spends the extra points for Characteristics!

 

Only You can create Florist Friars!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Only I can create palindromedaries

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

Why do you have to have characteristics in excess of 20 before you can consider NCM? Depending on the group as a whole' date=' if everyone else has stats way over 20, and you are the sole exception, why couldn't you use it?[/quote']

 

If everyone else has Flight, should you get a Disadvantage if you don't?

 

If everyone else has Mental Powers, should you get a Disadvantage if you don't?

 

How about if you want to pay double for those abilities?

 

If everyone else has Resistant Defenses and you don't should you have a Disadvantage called "Seeker?"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

If I have a palindromedary and none of the rest of you do, should you all have a Disadvantage?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Human

 

My experience with NCM has been like this. I've had a few characters with it in Champions games and' date=' over the long run, they've lagged behind. Characteristics seem to be very point efficient investments compared to skills and skill levels, particularly Strength, Dexterity and [b']Intelligence [/b]and the NCM characters ended either being extremely focused or lagging significantly behind over the course of the games even if they didn't start that far behind. Even the more focused fell behind in performance, particularly combatwise. Speed hurt here a great deal.

 

I'm confused by INT, as emphasized above. All it does is add to INT skills and PRE, functions which skill levels seem readily able to address.

 

To me, if characteristics are overly efficient, the answer is to deal with their pricing for all characters.

[jtelson]

Re: Normal Human

 

I'm confused by INT, as emphasized above. All it does is add to INT skills and PRE, functions which skill levels seem readily able to address.

 

To me, if characteristics are overly efficient, the answer is to deal with their pricing for all characters.

 

I assume INT because a level with INT skills costs 5 points while increasing INT for a +1 with all INT skills is also 5 points plus you get a bonus to your Perception roll.

[nexus]

Re: Normal Human

 

I assume INT because a level with INT skills costs 5 points while increasing INT for a +1 with all INT skills is also 5 points plus you get a bonus to your Perception roll.

 

And Int is the base for a pretty large number of skills.

[Lucius]

More Normal Humans

 

The Florist Friars

 

Brother Rose Aka ”the Flying Monk”

Val Char Cost Roll Notes

15 STR 5 12- Lift 200.0kg; 3d6 [3]

20 DEX 30 13- OCV: 7/DCV: 7

13 CON 6 12-

9 BODY -2 11-

13 INT 3 12- PER Roll 12-

11 EGO 2 11- ECV: 4

13 PRE 3 12- PRE Attack: 2 1/2d6

8 COM -1 11-

 

3/5 PD 0 Total: 3/5 PD (0/2 rPD)

3/4 ED 0 Total: 3/4 ED (0/1 rED)

6 SPD 50 Phases: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12

6 REC 0

26 END 0

24 STUN 0 Total Characteristic Cost: 88

 

Movement:

Running: 3"/6"

Flight: 3"/12"

Leaping: 2"/4"

Swimming:1"/2"

 

Cost Powers END

9 The Flying Monk: Flight 3", x4 Noncombat, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (22 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Drain 3d6 END when fuel runs out.; -1/2), Conditional Power Only if already ran 3" that phase; Can only go noncombat if ran noncombat that phase (-1/2), Only In Contact With A Surface (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel (Secret herbal potion) Charge lasting 30 Minutes (-1/4) [1 cc]

1 No thank you, I won't stand still and let you land a solid blow...: Armor (2 PD/1 ED) (5 Active Points); Limited Power Does not stop first pt of BOD of a Killing Attack (-1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Drain 3d6 END when fuel runs out.; -1/2), Linked (The Flying Monk; Lesser Instant Power can be used in any Phase in which greater Constant Power is in use; -1/4), Nonpersistent (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 30 Minutes (-1/4) [1 cc]

2 Healing Potion: Rapid Healing (5 Active Points); OAF Fragile (-1 1/4), 6 Boostable Charges (-1/2)

Notes: For some reason, Brother Rose's herbal potions seem to only be able to heal himself. Unfortunately, not everyone believes that....

He's Fast!

Maneuver OCV DCV Notes

5 Flying Dodge -- +4 Dodge All, Abort; FMove

3 Martial Throw +0 +1 3d6 +v/5, Target Falls

3 Martial Grab -1 -1 Grab 2 Limbs, 25 STR holding

 

Skills

3 Breakfall 13-

3 Acrobatics 13-

3 Bureaucratics 12-

3 Paramedics 12-

3 Trading 12-

0 Language: English (idiomatic) (4 Active Points)

2 Language: Latin (fluent conversation)

3 Jack of All Trades

2 1) PS: Florist (3 Active Points) 12-

2 2) PS: Flower Arranging (3 Active Points) 12-

2 3) PS: Gardener (3 Active Points) 12-

2 4) PS: Herbalist (3 Active Points) 12-

3 Scholar

2 1) KS: Canon Law (3 Active Points) 12-

2 2) KS: Flowers (3 Active Points) 12-

2 3) KS: Herblore (3 Active Points) 12-

2 4) KS: The Fastest Routes through the City (3 Active Points) 12-

 

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 62

Total Cost: 150

 

75+ Disadvantages

0 Normal Characteristic Maxima

5 Age: 40+

15 Dependent NPC: Brother Orchid 14- (Slightly Less Powerful)

15 Psychological Limitation: Monastic Vows (Common, Strong)

5 Money: Vow of Poverty Poor

5 Distinctive Features: Monastic Habit (Easily Concealed; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)

10 Rivalry: Professional (Mercury Man and the FTD; Rival is Significantly More Powerful; Seek to Outdo, Embarrass, or Humiliate Rival; Rival Unaware of Rivalry)

5 Hunted: People wanting the secret of his herbal preperations 8- (As Pow, Mildly Punish)

15 Hunted: Ecclesiastical Superiors 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Watching)

 

Total Disadvantage Points: 150

 

Background/History: Brother Rose gained the nickname "The Flying Monk" when he started doing the deliveries for his monastic order's floral business.

 

Personality/Motivation: Brother Rose loves the Church and flowers, not necessarily in that order. He has an irrational resentment of Florist's Transworld Delivery because their symbol "Mercury Man" is a Pagan God.

 

Quote: May the Saint forgive me, but I hate Valentine's Day....how many more orders do I have to deliver?

 

Powers/Tactics: Unless he is cornered or must act to protect the innocent, Brother Rose responds to violence by running away.

 

Campaign Use: Florist Friar

 

Appearance: Brother Rose is almost always to be found in his monkish habit. Wearing it is one of his monkish habits.

 

 

 

 

Brother Orchid aka “Brother Ox”

Val Char Cost Roll Notes

40 STR 50 17- Lift 6400.0kg; 8d6 [8]

11 DEX 3 11- OCV: 4/DCV: 4

13 CON 6 12-

10 BODY 0 11-

10 INT 0 11- PER Roll 11-

11 EGO 2 11- ECV: 4

15 PRE 5 12- PRE Attack: 3d6

8 COM -1 11-

 

6 PD -2 Total: 6 PD (0 rPD)

4 ED 1 Total: 4 ED (0 rED)

3 SPD 9 Phases: 4, 8, 12

11 REC 0

26 END 0

37 STUN 0 Total Characteristic Cost: 67

 

Movement:

Running: 5"/10"

Leaping: 4"/8"

Swimming:2"/4"

 

Talents

6 Combat Luck (3 PD/3 ED)

 

Skills

3 Hoist 11-

3 Jack of All Trades

2 1) PS: Florist (3 Active Points) 11-

2 2) PS: Flower Arranging (3 Active Points) 11-

2 3) PS: Gardener (3 Active Points) 11-

3 Scholar

2 1) KS: Flowers (3 Active Points) 11-

2 2) KS: Herblore (3 Active Points) 11-

2 3) KS: Monastic Traditions (worldwide) (3 Active Points) 11-

2 +1 With Grab

 

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 29

Total Cost: 96

 

50+ Disadvantages

0 Normal Characteristic Maxima

15 Psychological Limitation: Monastic Vows (Common, Strong)

5 Money: Vow of Poverty Poor

5 Distinctive Features: Monastic Habit (Easily Concealed; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)

15 Hunted: Ecclesiastical Superiors 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Watching)

10 Psychological Limitation: Looks up to Brother Rose (Common, Moderate)

 

Total Disadvantage Points: 50

 

Background/History: Brother Orchid is actually Brother Rose's nephew, and he looks up to his uncle as a wiser and more experienced monk. But he's also read about the monastic and ascetic traditions of other cultures, and is not above sometimes mischeivously annoying his uncle by comparing their own rules and rituals to those of Buddhists or Taoists.

 

Personality/Motivation: Curiosity about Eastern traditions aside, Brother Orchid takes his vow of Obedience very seriously. Whatever he's doing at any given moment, it's probably what someone told him to do.

 

Quote: No thank you brother, I can handle it. They can't weigh more than a couple hundred kilos.

 

Powers/Tactics: Brother Orchid is gentle by nature and if he must fight will usually try to grab and immobilize his opponent. He knows he is unusually strong and is unlikely to strike anyone with his full Strength unless frightened or severely provoked.

 

Campaign Use: Florist Friar

 

Appearance: Brother Orchid is almost always to be found in his monkish habit. Wearing it is one of his monkish habits.

 

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Florist Friars copyright Palindromedary Enterprises

[Utech]

Re: Normal Human

 

While Utech suggests the disad can only be applied if the character has stats in excess of the NCM limits, I believe most or all published examples of characters with the 20 point disadvantage do not have stats over the limit, or have very small amounts over the breakpoint.

 

jtelson, on the other hand, believes the character is disadvantaged by lacking the potential to buy up those abilities limited by NCM without paying double. Yet only characters not taking advantage of that potential, or using a workaround, ever take the disadvantage.

 

I'll repeat my opinion: You should only get points for a Disadvantage if your character is disadvantaged by having it.

 

Taking "Hatred of Orcs" in a game that has no orcs is not worth any points. You might suggest that "Hatred of Orcs" has the potential to disadvantage your character -- maybe a dimensional portal will open up and orcs will pour through -- but that's silly. I suppose I'd agree to award the character with potential points. He can't use them for anything right now, but if the disadvantage somehow comes into play, they're all his.

 

I certainly won't try to justify my opinion using published examples of characters. Steve Long has often indicated that published characters are not meant to indicate that a given build is legal.

[Badger]

Re: Normal Human

 

Ehh, as far Normal Characteristics Maxima goes, I just dont ever use it. It is basically just annoying to me.

[Basil]

Re: Normal Human

 

Dr. Infamous wishes to purchase 25 "Normal Humans," but only if they can be reprogrammed to obey him, and instructions are given for how to reprogram them in the future are included.

 

If the 25 "Normal Humans" in this order work out, Dr. Infamous may be ordering more in the future.

 

Oh, and they better be compatible with Dr. Infamous's patented supersonic telepathic mechanical penguins with laser eyes!

 

Meanwhile, The Mallard is checking teapots, looking for the one this tempest is in

 

 

Dr. Infamous, The Mallard, and the supersonic telepathic mechanical penguins with laser eyes are just some of the fine products of Basil's Twisted Imagination, Unincorporated. All rites performed.

[Greywind]

Re: Normal Human

 

If everyone else has Flight, should you get a Disadvantage if you don't?

 

If everyone else has Mental Powers, should you get a Disadvantage if you don't?

 

How about if you want to pay double for those abilities?

 

If everyone else has Resistant Defenses and you don't should you have a Disadvantage called "Seeker?"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

If I have a palindromedary and none of the rest of you do, should you all have a Disadvantage?

I've had similar discussions in the past.

 

Should effects outside of your character sheet have an effect on the cost of things on your character sheet? Or should each and every character be evaluated separately?

 

Say you have a character that takes extra damage from an attack with an additional disad that states that damage from that type of attack doesn't heal "normally". Now you need something to affect the characters healing. Does the cost of the disadvantage get reduced because one of the other characters can heal others?

 

Tony Stark, IMO, in the early days, was the poster child in a lot of ways of NCM. He was "normal". Highly intelligent and very focused when he was working on something. Flighty, flaky and easily distracted by women. But his INT score could be considered within the normal range, augmented by scientific skills bought at a high level. Keep in mind that comic characters are not bought by game terms and therefore may not reflect efficiency in game terms.

 

When he is running around with Thor (90 STR), Giant Man (60 STR), Wasp (20+ DEX), Cap (most stats in excess of 20, depending on build) why can't he use NCM?

 

If you don't use the other characters around him, but the setting, you have a normal, highly intelligent man, dealing with abnormal situations on a regular basis. Why then isn't NCM allowed?

 

Never/Always free seems like a cheap, easy response to a general "I don't like it".

[Utech]

Re: Normal Human

 

When he is running around with Thor (90 STR)' date=' Giant Man (60 STR), Wasp (20+ DEX), Cap (most stats in excess of 20, depending on build) why can't he use NCM?[/quote']

 

Because NCM isn't disadvantaging his character. It's really that simple.

 

If he has had to pay extra points for characteristics (or what-have-you) covered by NCM, he is disadvantaged by NCM and qualifies for some portion of the NCM Disadvantage. If the player has decided that the character is powerful enough to hang out with Thor, Giant Man, Wasp, and Cap without needed to make that extra investment, then the player has decided he doesn't need any points from the NCM Disadvantage. Which is fine. Go Tony!

[Greywind]

Re: Normal Human

 

Being normal, most of the time, in a very abnormal world, IMO, qualifies.

 

A lot of disadvantages aren't. It is just the way the character is and he's learned to adjust through his life. Think about it.

[jtelson]

Re: Normal Human

 

I'll repeat my opinion: You should only get points for a Disadvantage if your character is disadvantaged by having it.

 

Taking "Hatred of Orcs" in a game that has no orcs is not worth any points. You might suggest that "Hatred of Orcs" has the potential to disadvantage your character -- maybe a dimensional portal will open up and orcs will pour through -- but that's silly. I suppose I'd agree to award the character with potential points. He can't use them for anything right now, but if the disadvantage somehow comes into play, they're all his.

 

I certainly won't try to justify my opinion using published examples of characters. Steve Long has often indicated that published characters are not meant to indicate that a given build is legal.

 

OK me too,

 

In a setting in which Characteristc expenditures are unbounded (or less bounded) not purchasing Characteristics to the level expected and surrendering the option to do so during later character development is disadvantageous.

 

Only acts 2/3 of average times, is stunned more easily, pays additional points for movement (+50% for same velocity - based on lower speed), lower base skill checks, lower base CVs etc

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Normal Human

 

A Disadvantage that does not disadvantage your character is not worth any points to your character.

 

Having NCM on the initial build may not limit the character, but it does limit how the character develops from there. If you say a character that's supposed to be a "trained normal" can't take NCM because he starts with nothing above 20, there's nothing mechanics-wise stopping him from bumping his STR up to 50 within a few game sessions. Using GM fiat to say he can't buy his STR up because of the original character concept and disallowing the use of NCM as a Disad is as bad or worse than the opposite situation where the character is getting a "free" 20 points.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Normal Human

 

Can anyone actually tell me what a normal human is? Presumably it is someone with NCM.

 

Now we can assume that NCM can be taken by people whose Characteristics do not exceed Normal Maxima, in which case we are simply letting them off finding some additional disadvantage points for being 'normal' in an extraordinary environment - which makes no sense...

 

OR

 

...we only let them take NCM when it hurts: Mighty Normal, with his 50 STR and 25 DEX takes NCM and pays 45 points more than usual. Is it me, or would that be stupid? Why not just ignore NCM and build the character on 20 fewer disadvantage points?

 

Concept? Don't make me laugh. the concept is in how the character is ACTUALLY built, not in claiming the character is 'normal' then finding ways around it.

 

So, if we assume that you can only take NCM if you lose at least as many points as you save, it is pointless. If we assume that you can take it even if you wouldn't exceed the points anyway, it is pointless.

 

NCM is the province of the GM, not the player*. Any limits on character creation should come from there. If the player wants to build a character with 30 STR and claim thay are just highly trained, unless the GM rules otherwise, fine: they are normal.

 

It is just an sfx, and you don't get points - or lose points - for those.

 

 

 

*Obviously not at present - I'm saying it SHOULD be.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Normal Human

 

On the point of 'normal human' here is an interesting one: Muscle is a mutant, and she has a STR of 60.

 

If she gets hit with a drain that affects mutant strength, what can her STR be reduced to? -30, which is as low as characteristics can go? Or somewhere in the 10 to 20 range that she would be if she did not have her mutant power?

 

Some of her strength could well be 'normal' strength, amd the rest could be from her mutant ability, and that makes sense to me, but how do we decide what is what? Take away her mutant powers and what is left is 'normal', probably, so how do we find the normal in the mutant?

[jtelson]

Re: Normal Human

 

On the point of 'normal human' here is an interesting one: Muscle is a mutant, and she has a STR of 60.

 

If she gets hit with a drain that affects mutant strength, what can her STR be reduced to? -30, which is as low as characteristics can go? Or somewhere in the 10 to 20 range that she would be if she did not have her mutant power?

 

Some of her strength could well be 'normal' strength, amd the rest could be from her mutant ability, and that makes sense to me, but how do we decide what is what? Take away her mutant powers and what is left is 'normal', probably, so how do we find the normal in the mutant?

 

I discuss these things with the Players during Character Creation for when they come up. So generally we have an idea on what will happen when sfx collide. So if Muscle works out regularly to maintain her girlish figure then the Drain (attacking a sfx) will likely stop somewhere between 10 and 20, otherwise it might be a bit lower.

[jtelson]

Re: Normal Human

 

Can anyone actually tell me what a normal human is? Presumably it is someone with NCM.

 

NCM might be better named Max Average Being Charateristics, High End Non Super Stats, Designer Designated Line in the Sand. While often 'normal human' figures into concepts where this disadvantage applies it's not the only place where it would.

[nexus]

Re: Normal Human

 

On the point of 'normal human' here is an interesting one: Muscle is a mutant, and she has a STR of 60.

 

If she gets hit with a drain that affects mutant strength, what can her STR be reduced to? -30, which is as low as characteristics can go? Or somewhere in the 10 to 20 range that she would be if she did not have her mutant power?

 

This is why I've started asking players to get characteristics that result from superhuman or unusual sfx under Powers. For example. "Muscles" would have her so called normal Strength in the characteristic bloc and "Enhanced Mutant Strength +X" under Powers. Of course, it's not always clear cut.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Normal Human

 

This is why I've started asking players to get characteristics that result from superhuman or unusual sfx under Powers. For example. "Muscles" would have her so called normal Strength in the characteristic bloc and "Enhanced Mutant Strength +X" under Powers. Of course' date=' it's not always clear cut.[/quote']

 

One possible approach, if players do not want to go to the trouble of working it out in advance; when it comes up, roll 3d6 for your 'base characteristic' and record that for present and future use.

[Markdoc]

Re: Normal Human

 

If everyone else has Flight' date=' should you get a Disadvantage if you don't?[/quote']

 

Not necessarily, but if you took a disad, ensuring that you could not acquire/use flight, the character would be at a disadvantage in any sort of ongoing game, so this seems reasonable.

 

If everyone else has Mental Powers' date=' should you get a Disadvantage if you don't? [/quote']

 

Not necessarily, but if you took a disad, ensuring that you could not acquire/use mental powers, the character would be at a disadvantage in any sort of ongoing game, so this seems reasonable.

 

How about if you want to pay double for those abilities?

 

Not worth as much points as being unable to ever acquire or use the powers, but again, the character would be at a disadvantage in any sort of ongoing game, so again this seems reasonable.

 

If everyone else has Resistant Defenses and you don't should you have a Disadvantage called "Seeker?"

 

I wouldn't call it that but this one we've actually seen in game - a character in a Fantasy game took a psych lim (a Geas) that he would not use armour. That certainly disadvantaged him. So yep, that's definately worth a disadvantage.

 

The long and the short of it is that in most games that run more than a few sessions, characteristic inflation is an issue. That's only reasonable given how efficient characteristics are. A character who chooses the NCM disadvantage is choosing a suboptimal (or at least more limited) development path over the longer term and it's fair enough that he gets some points for it.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Human

 

I'll repeat my opinion: You should only get points for a Disadvantage if your character is disadvantaged by having it.

 

Taking "Hatred of Orcs" in a game that has no orcs is not worth any points. You might suggest that "Hatred of Orcs" has the potential to disadvantage your character -- maybe a dimensional portal will open up and orcs will pour through -- but that's silly. I suppose I'd agree to award the character with potential points. He can't use them for anything right now, but if the disadvantage somehow comes into play, they're all his.

 

I certainly won't try to justify my opinion using published examples of characters. Steve Long has often indicated that published characters are not meant to indicate that a given build is legal.

 

Can you show me even a SINGLE example of a published character with NCM who HAS been disadvantaged by your definition?

 

Overall, I agree with you. NCM is only taken by characters who don't buy up their characteristics to a point where they are paying significant extra points for characteristics - they are not disadvantaged.

 

Really, NCM should have a variable price - 1/2 of the points spent on characteristics and abilities in excess of the NCM levels. But then it's futile, isn't it?