Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

[Ragitsu]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

There is a simple logic: When the plot demands a plot device from [highly advanced but lost civilisation]' date=' then there is such a plot device and there was [highly advanced but lost civilisation'].

In fantasy such devices are found in "lost cities", in SW they are found on "lost planets". There is always the room for ancient technollogy/magic or ancient technological/magical devices.

And frankly, it makes no difference in the powers source is tech or magic: In either chase it is not reproduceable and not counterable with current technology/magic. It requires heroic actions to stop it's activation or destroy it before it destorys the "homecountry/homeplantet of the heroes" or even the "entire planet/galaxy".

 

Good points.

[dmjalund]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Stagnation: A political entity with Antlers.

[Christopher]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Stagnation: A political entity with Antlers.

Stag - one of the Manimal Species created by Dr. Philippe Moreau.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

[novi]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

And suprise them (wich acording to some sources required the force to be clouded by the war and that the troopers only "did their job" and didn't hate them).

 

That may not be entirely the point, but I noticed that the most recent interpretations of star wars are all "stuck" in the past:

- We had Knights of the Old Republic 1+2

- We have Clone wars, the cartoon (wich is creating new storylines/new characters by the dozen per Season, so it won't be over soon)

- Now the Old Republic MMO

Almost seem as if the Future beyond Season 6 has nothing of interest for Gamedesigners/popular media (wich is bad, most of the expanded universe is cool stuff and really good stories).

Anyway, I think as long as they stay back there, we will be seeing jet another earlier period with mostly similar tech.

 

There are two big reasons for games staying away from the movie era. As was already said, it keeps people away from the main story and people being able to mess with it. But the bigger reason is that (the game developers believe, at least) is that people want to play Jedis in Star Wars games, and being in the past is a much easier than explaining their way around order 66. And they also get Sith for teh evul players.

 

As for technological stagnation, I would argue that that assumes that technology will progress in visibly obvious ways and at a rate comparable to the last 200 years on Earth. And I don't know that either is a correct assumption. And it assumes that the Star Wars universe runs on the same laws of physics as ours (actually, let's not go too deep there. I don't want to kill that many catgirls). Just because it looks the same doesn't mean that it is and that you should expect it to work like the real world. For instance, why don't they have cell phones? Or Game Boys?

 

Also, I would argue that technological progress is S-shapes, not exponential or linear (aka, after a period of rapid development, the technology matures and only slowly advances after that, and for increasingly small gains). For instance, the US military still uses the M2 machine gun, even though it dates to the 1920s, and will likely keep doing so for the foreseeable future. Or look at steam power - the last major advance there was the steam turbine, invented in the late 19th century. There's been some progress since then, but only in terms or refining the designs and optimizing them with better materials. A nuclear power plant, outside of the boiler/reactor, is largely unchanged from something Edison would have cut the ribbon on.

 

Also, compare a car from the 1960's with a car from today. Just visually. How much difference in apparent function is there? Gas goes in one end, an internal combustion engine with an automatic transmission turns wheels, people sit in the same spots with the same controls. And they both reliably start with a turn of the key, not too much fiddling required. An alien might accuse us that cars haven't changed since Bullitt other than aesthetically.

 

Just some thoughts.

[dmjalund]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

They have wrist coms. And Jedi are too serious to play with childrens toys like Gameboys, even the child Jedis.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

They have wrist coms. And Jedi are too serious to play with childrens toys like Gameboys' date=' even the child Jedis.[/quote']

 

The previous post illustrates a fundamental flaw in Str Wars as an RPG topic: Jedi are the only characters anyone wants to play or really would want to play, because they are so much more powerful and have many more cool abilities than everybody else. And the universe revolves around the Jedi, quite literally. So unless your party consists entirely of Jedi you will have unhappy players thrust to the background.

 

The people behind the MMO are trying to give other characters cool stuff to do but in the end it's the Jedi that matter.

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Also' date=' compare a car from the 1960's with a car from today. Just visually. How much difference in apparent function is there? Gas goes in one end, an internal combustion engine with an automatic transmission turns wheels, people sit in the same spots with the same controls. And they both reliably start with a turn of the key, not too much fiddling required. An alien might accuse us that cars haven't changed since [i']Bullitt[/i] other than aesthetically.

 

Certainly - but appearances would be deceptive. Look closer, and our alien would find a BUNCH of stuff in a modern car that are simply non-existent in a 1920s vehicle. Integrated circuits, new materials, better ergonomics / safety, different construction techniques, improved fuel economy and performance, and so forth.

[novi]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Certainly - but appearances would be deceptive. Look closer' date=' and our alien would find a BUNCH of stuff in a modern car that are simply non-existent in a 1920s vehicle. Integrated circuits, new materials, better ergonomics / safety, different construction techniques, improved fuel economy and performance, and so forth.[/quote']

 

That's kinda my point. From the visuals alone, can you tell me with any certainty that the Millenium Falcon is no more advanced, or even less so, than the Ebon Hawk from the first KOTOR?

 

If you were being rhetorical or sarcastic, I'm sorry for missing it.

[Christopher]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

The previous post illustrates a fundamental flaw in Str Wars as an RPG topic: Jedi are the only characters anyone wants to play or really would want to play, because they are so much more powerful and have many more cool abilities than everybody else. And the universe revolves around the Jedi, quite literally. So unless your party consists entirely of Jedi you will have unhappy players thrust to the background.

 

The people behind the MMO are trying to give other characters cool stuff to do but in the end it's the Jedi that matter.

And it is not the first Star Wars MMO or Star Wars RPG giving the non-jedi things to do, no Jedi could do. And let's face it: While Jedi are cool, they require a hell of a lot of training and thus lack a lot of other skills. Anakin was "too old" to start with 6 - since you should usually not know your parents (or you might try to avenge their deaths, thus starting your journey to the dark side).

I like the part of Clone Wars where just "Highly Trained Normals" and "Really advanced Droids" are actually a match for people like Anakin and other Jedi's. And of course, there is the pretty common force immunity/resistance, even if mostly shown against the persuasion power.

[McCoy]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

The previous post illustrates a fundamental flaw in Str Wars as an RPG topic: Jedi are the only characters anyone wants to play or really would want to play, because they are so much more powerful and have many more cool abilities than everybody else. And the universe revolves around the Jedi, quite literally. So unless your party consists entirely of Jedi you will have unhappy players thrust to the background.

 

The people behind the MMO are trying to give other characters cool stuff to do but in the end it's the Jedi that matter.

Unless the GM firmly enforces the protective/defensive nature of the Jedi's powers. Jedi are reactive, not proative. Jedi cannot innitiate violence, only react to it.

 

The big, big power other characters have that Jedi do not? They can shoot first!

[Christopher]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Unless the GM firmly enforces the protective/defensive nature of the Jedi's powers. Jedi are reactive, not proative. Jedi cannot innitiate violence, only react to it.

 

The big, big power other characters have that Jedi do not? They can shoot first!

And then can pick locks, use any ranged weapons (inlcuding sniper rifles and heavy weapons), choose not to act when a jedi has to, can't be detected via their force presence...

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

... And are NOT priority targets for people who hate Jedi.

 

Think about it. You are in a squad of baddies about to smackdown a bunch of do-gooders. In the latter, who will be targeted first - the Jedi, or "those other guys". Doesn't matter if the non-Jedi are all in power armour and the Jedi is just in his skivvies.

[Clonus]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

... And are NOT priority targets for people who hate Jedi.

 

Think about it. You are in a squad of baddies about to smackdown a bunch of do-gooders. In the latter, who will be targeted first - the Jedi, or "those other guys". Doesn't matter if the non-Jedi are all in power armour and the Jedi is just in his skivvies.

 

The other guys. When I have a blaster and I'm looking at a squad of troopers led by a guy with a light sabre, I shoot the other guys first. For the same reason when I'm an archer up against a group of GURPS fantasy characters and one of them is obviously a wizard, I do NOT shoot the wizard first unless I have the advantage of surprise.

[Wolf]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

For playing Star Wars D6 for 10+ years, I've never had an issue with Jedi being the lion's share of the PC party... in fact I've had most games where there is one or at most two Jedi, and more than a few with no Jedi at all... Most folks took the original series as a template, and if there was already one Jedi then no one else took one (mostly). More often we had a run on how many folks wanted to play the Smuggler or Tramp Freighter Captain. And when we got old enough we used some of the Rebel Source Book and got really into the Rebel Special Operational Forces... Lot's of fun games with that sub-genre. Long live the rebel Patfinders... .

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

For playing Star Wars D6 for 10+ years' date=' I've never had an issue with Jedi being the lion's share of the PC party... in fact I've had most games where there is one or at most two Jedi, and more than a few with no Jedi at all... Most folks took the original series as a template, and if there was already one Jedi then no one else took one (mostly). More often we had a run on how many folks wanted to play the Smuggler or Tramp Freighter Captain. And when we got old enough we used some of the Rebel Source Book and got really into the Rebel Special Operational Forces... Lot's of fun games with that sub-genre. Long live the rebel Patfinders... .[/quote']

 

I play and run D6 Star Wars (and may be starting a campaign soon). The Jedi in the gamebooks are very weak, players tend to avoid them. But my core group (the three guys who I always play with) insist that they MUST have a smuggler in the party, because that's the only template that starts with a starship. We often end up with a party of a Smuggler, Outlaw, Bounty Hunter, Mercenary, and Pirate... one guy with the ship, and four guys with guns.

[Christopher]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

The Jedi in the gamebooks are very weak' date=' players tend to avoid them. But my core group (the three guys who I always play with) insist that they MUST have a smuggler in the party, because that's the only template that starts with a starship. We often end up with a party of a Smuggler, Outlaw, Bounty Hunter, Mercenary, and Pirate... one guy with the ship, and four guys with guns.[/quote']

Ideed, the Jedis are weak at start. They can't even properly block blaster shoots. There main power is easily the extra Force Point (and the increased/missing Limit).

But those are based closer on the old trillogy than the new. It's like comparing Golden Age Superman with his most powerfull incarnation. And it is pretty common for RPG to let the "magicians" start weak, beacuse of all the stuff they get once the got power.

 

The question with your groups setup is, why not simply say "my non--smugler character has a space ship and a fitting loan" or the GM decides the group has access to one?

[Mister E]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

They have wrist coms. And Jedi are too serious to play with childrens toys like Gameboys' date=' even the child Jedis.[/quote']

 

Like when Yoda battled R2 for the camp-lamp? btw, imho, R2 is way more Tao than Yoda.

 

And what about all the damn fool idealistic crusading Jedi were supposed to do? Whatever happened to that?

 

The previous post illustrates a fundamental flaw in Str Wars as an RPG topic: Jedi are the only characters anyone wants to play or really would want to play, because they are so much more powerful and have many more cool abilities than everybody else. And the universe revolves around the Jedi, quite literally. So unless your party consists entirely of Jedi you will have unhappy players thrust to the background.

 

The people behind the MMO are trying to give other characters cool stuff to do but in the end it's the Jedi that matter.

 

I know what you are talking about. I was once the only non-Jedi in a party.

 

Not to be contrary, but I only play droids. Droids are over-powered... which is probably why they won't let you play one in any of the MMOs.

 

And it is not the first Star Wars MMO or Star Wars RPG giving the non-jedi things to do, no Jedi could do. And let's face it: While Jedi are cool, they require a hell of a lot of training and thus lack a lot of other skills. Anakin was "too old" to start with 6 - since you should usually not know your parents (or you might try to avenge their deaths, thus starting your journey to the dark side).

I like the part of Clone Wars where just "Highly Trained Normals" and "Really advanced Droids" are actually a match for people like Anakin and other Jedi's. And of course, there is the pretty common force immunity/resistance, even if mostly shown against the persuasion power.

 

Dude... it's like SCA training.

 

The whole "too old" thing has to be a joke. Yoda tells it to everybody he meets for the first time. Nobody but him thinks it's funny. It's on everyone's face.

 

The bit were Yoda pretends to die just because he's tired of hosting company... gets old fast, too. I'm just glad we only had to see it once in all the movies.

[Mister E]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Unless the GM firmly enforces the protective/defensive nature of the Jedi's powers. Jedi are reactive, not proative. Jedi cannot innitiate violence, only react to it.

 

The big, big power other characters have that Jedi do not? They can shoot first!

 

This is so true! If paladins are lawful stupid... then Jedi are virtually joyless.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Depends on the era, really: there were times the Jedi code was more relaxed in general.

 

Also, lets not stereotype them too much...i'm getting flashbacks of many elf bashing threads.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Ideed, the Jedis are weak at start. They can't even properly block blaster shoots. There main power is easily the extra Force Point (and the increased/missing Limit).

But those are based closer on the old trillogy than the new. It's like comparing Golden Age Superman with his most powerfull incarnation. And it is pretty common for RPG to let the "magicians" start weak, beacuse of all the stuff they get once the got power.

 

The question with your groups setup is, why not simply say "my non--smugler character has a space ship and a fitting loan" or the GM decides the group has access to one?

 

Jedi in the basic book were always described as only partially trained (Minor Jedi), flunked out of training (Failed Jedi) or insane (Quixotic Jedi)... and the Alien Student, who wasn't a Jedi at all but still a force user. For combat ability, a Minor Jedi could be devastating in melee, and a Failed Jedi had great potential. But my players loved thier blaster bolts.

 

Since all my campaign settings were set between movies one and two (episode IV-V), with the players being operatives of the Alliance, why did they always think they needed thier own ship? The Alliance would provide one if they needed it! But they wanted the 'freedom' of owning thier own ship (and being hunted by a crime lord) rather than accept 'charity' from thier employers.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Flashbang grenades, preferably fired in clusters, would be my weapon of choice against Jedi. They generally need to concentrate to do most of their stuff, so you start with something most likely to disrupt their concentration...then follow up with everything else.

[Christopher]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Flashbang grenades' date=' preferably fired in clusters, would be my weapon of choice against Jedi. They generally need to concentrate to do most of their stuff, so you start with something most likely to disrupt their concentration...then follow up with everything else.[/quote']

They can shut down their senses. And fight blind and deaf. So unless you Flash the Mental/Force Sensegroup too, you just get him angrier.

 

Plus, you are throwing grenades. "Is more blessed to give than to receive.", and the Jedi love that Motto.

[Clonus]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

They can shut down their senses. And fight blind and deaf. So unless you Flash the Mental/Force Sensegroup too, you just get him angrier.

 

Plus, you are throwing grenades. "Is more blessed to give than to receive.", and the Jedi love that Motto.

 

Yes low velocity projectiles may not be the ideal choice against telekinetics.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Hmm. Well, you could adapt a blaster to do pretty much the same thing--make a big loud and flashy explosion upon contact with a lightsaber.

Or a high speed projectile weapon with a slug that's highly resistant to lightsabers(or if it could somehow pass through one...).