Is there a reason why not to take Multiform if you have a secret ID?

[massey]

2 hours ago, Spence said:

 

But that is not really a multiform example because all you would be doing is having two identical character sheets except naming one Clark and one Superman.  Superman was always a single form play acting that they were a weak normal guy.  Multiform is there to allow a person to build different forms with completely different abilities. Superman is just a powerful being that conceals their abilities via a costume and low level disguise which doesn't work because Sup's is a great actor, but because people simply don't believe a milksop could be anything more.

 

A better example is Banner/Hulk.  Banner may be intelligent and clear thinking, but Hulk isn't.  He has the mental development of a small child with hugely overdeveloped physical abilities.  If you want Banner's intellect to remain when he Hulk's out, you'd have to buy the skills and mental stats on each character sheet.  I doubt a cashier would let Hulk make a withdrawal from Banners account.

 

Every time I've used multiform I usually prefer for my PC to retain all his knowledge, skills and memories.  So I usually copy his mental stats, skills and other resources onto each forms character sheet.  Then I bought each forms unique abilities.

 

 

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

Multiform gives you two or more completely separate forms.  Anything not paid for by a form cannot be used by that form.  That includes skill, contact, perks or anything else.  This is not a matter of one of the forms choosing not to use something they literally cannot use what they have not paid for.  This is not a matter of a character choosing not to use a skill, they cannot use it period.  

 

If one of my players tried buying the skills only in one form then he would forget what those skills gave him when he switched forms.  If Clark Kent has all the investigative skills and they are not on the Superman form her forgets what he figured out when he changes to Superman.  So when Clark figures out where Lex Luther is and turns into Superman, Superman does not know where Lex is and is going to stand around confused.

 

As GM I reserve the right to Veto anything think is inappropriate and a Superman multiform is going to get a big fat NO.  Shazam type character maybe, but again anything that carries over has to be purchased by both forms. 

 

You guys are getting hung up on special effect.  I'm not worried about what a character could theoretically do.  I'm thinking about how the character will be played.

 

There's very little difference between the Bruce Banner/Hulk and Billy Batson/Captain Marvel characters, and Clark Kent/Superman.  Yes, theoretically Clark still has all his powers when he's sitting on the toilet at work playing on his phone.  But since I'm not intending to have Clark fight supervillains while sitting on the toilet at work, it doesn't matter.

 

I'm aware that the idea offends your sensibilities.  I like the idea anyway.

[BoloOfEarth]

4 hours ago, massey said:

I'm not entirely sold on some of that.

 

Suppose you build Clark Kent separately from Superman.  While theoretically Clark can use all of Superman's stats and abilities in his normal clothes, in practice the two characters operate differently.  As long as you make Clark reasonably super-strong and bulletproof (say 35 Str, 20 PD resistant), that'll be sufficient for anything Clark is likely to do as Clark.  You can then spend the rest of your points on fun genre tricks like superspeed typing, as well as his journalistic skills and contacts.

 

Superman is again, the same guy as Clark, just wearing different clothing.  There's nothing stopping Superman from conducting an interview or calling on Clark's contacts to get the scoop.  Except we know he doesn't do that.  There are a lot of skills he technically knows how to use, but he just doesn't when he's being Superman.  This is particularly true when Supes is being the "Big Blue Boyscout" and seems to fall for every trick in the book.  Goofy, gullible Superman never recognizes the enemy's trap until it goes off in his face.  And yet Clark is a brilliant investigative reporter who knows bullcrap when he hears it.  I don't think it's unreasonable to give Clark a high Deduction skill roll, and to leave it off Superman's character sheet entirely.  Often there's a difference in mindset between the two characters.

 

 

To me, the sentence I bolded is the reason why I *wouldn't* do that as a Mutiform.  If they're the same guy, just different clothing, then it's not really a different form (unless the "clothing" is what provides the powers, a la Iron Man).  And I would say that any inability or disinclination to use contacts or skills as either Clark or Supes is just part of the limitations caused by a Secret Identity.  Of course, YMMV, and I can understand some of the logic of why you might feel that way.  But I disagree.

[Spence]

58 minutes ago, massey said:

I'm aware that the idea offends your sensibilities.  I like the idea anyway.

 

It doesn't offend me at all.  It's a game and anyway you want to play it is cool, especially if you enjoy it.  I was just commenting on what I thought was the subject and what to me didn't seem to be a good example. 

 

I try to comment on my opinions of how I see the rules.  I may correct someone on what I am attempting to say about my opinion, but I will never tell someone how they can or cannot play their own game. 

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Multiform gives you two or more completely separate forms.  Anything not paid for by a form cannot be used by that form.  That includes skill, contact, perks or anything else.

 

This is something that trips up a lot of new players, I have noticed, and frankly, deserves to be repeated.

 

 

1 hour ago, massey said:

  I'm not worried about what a character could theoretically do.  I'm thinking about how the character will be played.

 

 

And this is something that trips up a lot of GMs, new or otherwise, and _also_ deserves to be repeated.

 

That second one seems to be a bigger issue since the advent of "reach into your pocket and talk to a thousand strangers."  Things like this board-- wonderful tools that they are-- have serious consequences as well.  Once we start talking about "well the book says" and then we get into discussion where we all agree "well, yes; that is what the book says" and we start making unconscious efforts to play in ways that we perceive to be similar to or at least "approved of by" relative strangers who, realistically, will never sit at a table with us---  we start to emphasize the _letter_ of the law versus the over-all point of the law.

 

Everyone has, at one time or another-- even me-- gotten all uppity and hoity-toidy and from behind our sneering disdain whipped out "A limitation that doesn't limit is worth no discount."

 

Folks, I tend to find Multiform dumps easily into the category.  The whole construct "Multiform" is just points on trees.  "You'll have to buy that skill twice" isn't that much of a deterrent if you're buying it the second time for 1/5 of the actual cost  (Yeah-- don't start.  I know "that both forms pay full price," but what do you pay for that entire second form?  one for five of everything that's on that form.  That's it.  Everything on there is 1/5 cost.  If (going 4e here; if it's changed in later editions, ignore this part) you happen to have more than one form, the third and greater forms are paying _one tenth_ the actual price.

 

One-for-Five is a -4 Limitation.  Minus FOUR!   I can get a -2 for "only under a full moon!"  I bet I can get into that other form more frequently than that!.

 

Certainly we can say "well, the Hero form doesn't get the skills of the base form."  Well...   if he really needs it, it's what?  A half-a-Phase away?  Go whole hog!  Perhaps if the other form doesn't have the memories of the base form, either.  Neither the memories nor the motivations.  Then I might buy a -4:  "Well, there's a chance that if I yell "Shazam," I might never come back.  I might forget who I am or why I summoned Captain Marvel!  Suppose he forgets I exist?  I might never be Billy Batson again!"  That's pretty risky; I might go up a bit on the Limitation for that.  _Possibly_-- and only _possibly_ a -4.

 

Here's the thing:

 

"You're all gathered in a tavern."  

 

When the adventure starts, half the players are going to be hanging out at the team base.  More than half, perhaps.  Uh-oh!  I need my PowerDude persona!

 

You're hanging out at the team base as...  not PowerDude?  Doubtful. But if you are, then it's a better-than-good chance that your teammates are well-aware that you are, in fact, PowerDude.  There is nothing stopping you from changing into PowerDude.  Honestly, this is probably the safest place you could actually do that.

 

How else do games start?  PowerDude in on patrol over Megalopolis when suddenly--

 

Oh.  Already PowerDude.  Already accessing all those -4 Limitation powers.  Didn't have to change or nuthin'....   cool.  Nah, it's cool.

 

To be fair:  There might be people out there who enjoy roleplaying the day job, typing up those QSP reports, rolling dice to see what you misfiled, and paying the bills.  Two or three sessions from now, you might access your PowerDude form.  You'll have to be sneaky, though: Ben from accounting has been putting those little cameras in the cubicles and posting those creepy "candid day job" videos to the 'net.   Jimmy and Kate got fired, so you _know_ there's one in the broom closet....

 

Most of us didn't make superheroes to play, if I may borrow the line, "Houses and Humans."  We made superheroes to play superheroes, and that's what we're going to play.  Most GMs don't want to run Houses and Humans  (and again, if that's your bag, go for it:  frankly, you're helping my case a bit).

 

So why is this worth a -4 to begin with?!   Get a third and subsequent form for a minus NINE limitation!  Just run through the book and grab all the -1/4 limitations you can find and see what sort of problems you're going to have with a power by the time you get it to -4, let alone -9!

 

And the only drawback you're really going to encounter is that perhaps twice a session you have to pay lip service to hiding around the corner before yelling Shazam.

 

 

Yes: the book says Multiform is -4, but couches it as "Five for one."  The "limitaiton" is that you can't use the skills / abilities of the other form.  The book also says that changing forms "might take a half phase."  MIGHT!  (5e; I wasn't wading through 6e for this discussion).  It might _not_ take a half phase.

 

If I put "takes a half phase to use my MegaBuster," can it get a -4 on it?  Of course not.

 

So...   

 

Honestly: how many people here play Multiform in such a way as to justify this extreme cost reduction?   How do you do it?   Time limits on the form is cool.  Difficulty changing is cool.  Cool-down periods; those are excellent:  Only once per day, something like that?

 

 

But wait!  Since Multiform is a _power_ (I swear to Pete it should be classed as a Framework if it continues on into the next edition), I can add all those things _to_ it, and make it even cheaper!  This just can't lose.....

 

 

And of course, the savvy Min/Max guy will note that while in SuperDude form, you are locked away from your Normal Joe form; shouldn't you get some kind of reciprocal discount on that?  It's the same thing!  In fact, you are likely going to spend _way_ more time as SuperDude during play than you are as Normal Joe, so that discount should be even bigger!

 

We don't play out the bulk of the character's everyday life.  We just don't.  We play out the bulk of their adventurous life.  As such, how much of a disadvantage is it to be "locked away" from Superform if we are going to spend the bulk of playtime _in_ superform?   You know the saw:  A limitation that doesn't limit, etc, etc.

 

So what's a realistic value for this?

 

We'll get there.

 

I have stated before that Multiform and Shapeshift both most likely came about because people forgot about "only in HERO (alternate / appropriate) Identity (form)."

 

_That_ Limitation has been around since 1e Champions.  Strangely (I haven't responded because I've been re-reading the book to be sure), it seems to have skipped 3e Champions-- and 3e Champions and other 3e books are where 4e came from, right?  Well 4e introduced Multiorm.  (I seem to recally it may have appeared in Champions 3, but I haven't the time or energy left to check that.  Feel free to prove me wrong, though).

 

Only in HERO ID is, of course, _not_ Multiform, in as much as it doesn't automatically rule out using David Banner's brains while he's the Hulk, right?

 

So what's a good value for a limitation- like Multiform-- that is more set-dressing and off-camera storyline than a serious inconvenience?

 

I'm thinking about -1/4.

 

Why am I thinking that?

 

Because that's what the original value was:  Only in Hero ID (now called "only in alternate id," I believe) was worth -1/4.  Strangely, it still is.   Best of all, it only locks out what you want it to lock out, and you decide by putting it on what you want to lock out.  Don't want Banner's Brains while you're hulked out?  Then put "Only in appropriate ID" in his INT, too (or maybe his INT above 8 or so).  Don't want Hulk's superleaping while you're studying all things science?  Fine.  Only in appropriate ID.

 

Not only does it more accurately model the _real_ limitation that the  character is enduring, it works just the way that Munchkin Man has postulated for years:  He can get the same discount for the things he can't access while he is SuperDude.

 

 

Now, for those who are interested, spurred on by comments in another thread and the noticeable absence of certain individuals of late, let me show you sort of what I've been doing for years-- don't get me wrong: I still have the periodic multiformer, but we do 4e rules, where the most expensive form pays for all others, regardless of which is the "base" or "true" form.  (In practice, that has seriously shut down the amount of munchkinny uses for multiform, but your mileage will no doubt vary)

 

 

Only in Appropriate Form:  -1/4

 

Cumulatively modified as follows:

 

Character has a secret Identity:.........................................-1/4

Character has more than one form in which 

Power is not available..........................................................-1/4

 

Requires Full Turn to change form:.....................................-1/4

Requires more than 1 minute to change:...........................-1/2

 

Requires complex "ritual" or external

components to achieve change of forms..........................-1/4

 

Character can be prevented from changing

forms by relatively obvious or simple means.....................-1/4

Character can be prevented from changing

forms by relatively obvious _and_ simple means...............-1/2

 

Character may maintain appropriate form 

indefinitely............................................................................-(-1/4)

Character may only maintain appropriate form

For one day.................................................................................0

Character may only maintain appropriate form

for one hour.............................................................................-1/4

Character may only maintain approrpiate form 

for five minutes......................................................................-1/2

 

Character can only change forms once per hour...............-1/4

Character can only change forms once per day................-1/2

 

There. 

 

That's it.

 

That's how the House Bushido Playgroups do both Multiform and Shapeshift.

 

You can take the original -1/4 and have only -1/4's worth of problems, or you can run it up to as high as -3, only with your problems spelled out for you, so that we both know what to do to create the actual limitation you're taking.  This system let's you take bonuses by "locking out" each form away from the other: Jekyl is discounted for being locked away from Hyde; Hyde is discounted for being locked away from Jekyl.

 

And _no one_ is getting -4 for this, let alone -9.

 

(for rare concepts, I have allowed the Only in appropriate form to start at -1/2 instead of -1/4.  Even then, max possible bonus is less than -4!).

 

 

 

Well, that's out now.

 

 

😕

 

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

Check it in a couple of minutes.

 

I forgot the time limitations in the chart; going upstream to edit them now.

[unclevlad]

3 hours ago, massey said:

 

 

You guys are getting hung up on special effect.  I'm not worried about what a character could theoretically do.  I'm thinking about how the character will be played.

 

There's very little difference between the Bruce Banner/Hulk and Billy Batson/Captain Marvel characters, and Clark Kent/Superman.  Yes, theoretically Clark still has all his powers when he's sitting on the toilet at work playing on his phone.  But since I'm not intending to have Clark fight supervillains while sitting on the toilet at work, it doesn't matter.

 

I'm aware that the idea offends your sensibilities.  I like the idea anyway.

 

I can't remember a specific instance, but Clark's been in fires, explosions, etc.  It doesn't have to be a fight;  he can be in a damaging situation at any time.
Heck, to keep it topical...Superman is immune to disease.  Clark can catch Covid-19.

Clark has also used his super-speed to vanish then reappear as Superman.

Clark knows everything Superman knows, and vice versa...so Clark can investigate under the radar in ways Superman never can.
So it does matter.  

 

I think the single biggest 'mistake' in 6E is Mulitform...even in its more basic forms.  As Duke noted, it's just begging for a tree-like spread.  Even if they're all the same base cost, altho it gets easier with higher-level characters.  But, say you have 400 points.  85 points for 4, 400 point variants...but that's before limitations.  How about Concentration and Extra Segment to activate?  There's a half limit that shouldn't be too much of a hassle.  Now it's 57 points.  So my base form is on 343.  I can build a nice martial artist type, with very good infiltration or intel-gathering skills as well.  Then a desolid form to facilitate infiltration.  Then, let's go with a blaster type with flight for the combat form.  And I've got something left for whatever might appeal.  

I could also work on other limitations...how about time limit, 24 hours?  -3/4 on 85 should be 49.  Now I have 351.

And that's not even getting into the worst aspect, where the main form can just drop 200 points to get a 1000 point alternate form.  But, it should be a given...this is something that should never be allowed for PCs, and RARELY used with NPCs.  

Multiform should probably be a STOP power, but IMO the GM has an obligation to say No to obnoxiously rude stuff regardless.

 

[dmjalund]

another way to think about multiform

 

- the base character is not any specific character. it is the lowest common multiple of all characters, plus a 'Multiform cost'

this isn't a cost/5, this is the maximum points that can be spend on any one form + the cost of each form (/5 or is it /10)

 

each form gets all the Lowest common items for free and only spend the multiform cost to improve these.

 

if the base form has complications, then all forms have these complications, but get no extra points for them. any form specific compications must be costed with the ability to shift away from them in mind.

 

 

[Spence]

16 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Well, that's out now.

 

 

😕

 

Too bad there isn't a mic drop emoji

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

35 minutes ago, Spence said:

 

Too bad there isn't a mic drop emoji

 

 

Ha!

 

Thanks, but that's not actually how I meant "that's out now."

 

I have intentionally avoided posting builds and my actual house rukes _for years_ for reasons that, in another thread, I have been being convinced arent valid anymore (well, I can think of two reasons that still exist, but they are in and out as the mood strikes them).

 

"That," in 'that's out now" refers to posting my own house rules; not frustration with the topic.  (That _particular_ 'that' is still bottled up nice and safe, deep inside next to the heart attacks, hair loss,  and shortness of breath, as it should be in any reasonable adult male.      )

 

[Megastranger]

The big problem that I had wasn't really the technical end of what they can/can't use in each form, my players were looking to use Multiform as an excuse to min/max.  For example.  When they are out of hero ID, they wanted a 380cp (Billy Batson) and a additional 380cp Shazam vs a 400cp Superman/Clark Kent.  I think the thought process was "I'll spend the 1/2 phase to change if I need a skill then change back to my uber form".   When the one player brought that up, the other players wanted to work that into their character concepts just for the extra CP.  That's when one of my players said "Is there a reason not to take Multiform if you have a secret ID?"  I hope that made sense lol

[Jhamin]

On 11/26/2020 at 10:04 AM, Megastranger said:

When the one player brought that up, the other players wanted to work that into their character concepts just for the extra CP.  That's when one of my players said "Is there a reason not to take Multiform if you have a secret ID?"  I hope that made sense lol

 

Back in the Fourth Edition rulebook there was a section on Powergaming in Hero.  They said that making a good character was what everyone wants but this is the guy who "takes Missing One Hand as a Disadvantage, but tries to get it per finger in order to get more points out of it."
It then goes on to give helpful tips on powergaming builds like "PlanetMan" who buys enough shrinking to keep planets in his pocket and then throws them at people, or "LandLord" who used the base building rules to buy all the space in the observable universe.

The basic point of it was that Hero lets you do anything, but that doesn't mean you should do anything.

Multiform exists because there are certain characters that greatly benefit from being able to buy it rather than do all kinds of torturous things with other rules to simulate that they are three different guys timesharing one body.  Hero doesn't tell you what you can't do, it gives you tools to build whatever you want and trusts your gaming group to all build things everyone will have fun with.