Could a low PRE be a benefit in some situations?

[mallet]

So the rules describe Presence as:

 

Presence represents the character’s forcefulness, charisma, bravery, confidence, bearing, and leadership qualities— in short, his impressiveness.

 

So a character with a very low Presence would be very unimpressive, which can also be interpreted as unimportant.  

 

So imagine a scenario where the NPC guards are keeping a look out at a downtown building and searching a busy city street for any suspicious or dangerous people (doesn't matter if it is a modern game and the building is a corporate HQ, or a fantasy game and the building is the castle in the center of town). In an instance like this wouldn't or couldn't a low Presence act like a form of invisibility or rather similar to a mental command to "not bother about me, I'm no one important and no threat"? 

 

The guards are obviously looking for someone who would be a threat to security or a danger, and someone with a very low Presence would be so unimpressive and unimportant that they shouldn't give them a second glance (assuming they aren't obviously holding weapons, in costume, or dressed for combat, etc...) 

 

If that is the case, then it opens up the potential for some builds (that we do see in comics and other media) to create a character that looks completely unimpressive yet can still be very dangerous. Like a super bland and unimpressive looking Hitman who can slip away after a job with no one noticing them or thinking they could be involved, or a very meek looking Peasant who his actually a great fighter or master thief. 

 

I would assume the build would be something like selling back their PRE to 1 or 2 points, then buy extra limited PRE like (+20 PRE only vs PRE Attacks (-1/2))

 

So if you agree with the general concept, what do you think the mechanical rules, if any are needed, for someone with a very low presence to be ignored as being not a threat or worth a second look? 

 

EDIT: got the idea from a Law and Order episode (which was based on a real story) where a mob hitman was this chubby, middle-aged white guy, with glasses and basically completely non-descript, dull looking, who does his hits in public, then slips away in the chaos afterwards because no one gives him a second glance. The cops and other mobsters and witnesses see him but just assume he could have nothing to do with what happened. (spoilers for a 20 year old episode: it is only after he is caught on camera a few different murders that they finally start looking for him). Since this was based on a true story, and similar things with people not being noticed because they are so unimpressive looking, happens in RL all the time, I figured it wouldn't be a "power build" but rather based on stats, PRE and PER, etc... 

[archer]

Being unimpressive might be helpful if you're dealing with bodyguards who are having to make a judgement call about your threat level. It would certainly not be as useful as actually buying a power which is applicable, in my opinion. They would be underestimating you, not failing to notice that you exist and could possibly pose some sort of threat.

 

But it'd be completely useless against someone who is simply watching for trespassers, pickpockets, or thieves since those criminals pretty much by definition are trying to look innocent and unthreatening. If a player wants a bonus at all for those kinds of activities, they need to buy appropriate skill levels.

 

 

[unclevlad]

I'm with archer, and I'd go further.  PRE helps you hide that you're more than you seem;  bluffing can be treated as making a base PRE roll, at which you bite.   And what does your gear look like?  If you're openly carrying serious weaponry and armor, that's what draws my attention first, as a guard.  And if you're acting all meek and miniionesque...that so does NOT fit.  

 

The other aspect here is, you're trying to actively turn something neutral, or even negative (selling back PRE), into a positive.  Nope.  The example you give is, for me, a good Acting roll.

[LoneWolf]

Unimpressive is not the same as unnoticeable.  A person with a low PRE may even be more noticeable.  

 

Most of what you are looking at doing would be covered under acting and/or disguise.  Another useful skill that would be useful for that sort of concept is persuasion.   Considering both acting and persuasion are PRE based skills, that is going to make it actually harder to pull off what you want.  
 

[Duke Bushido]

One of the APGs has some thoughts on negative characteristics.

 

You might want to take a look there for some ideas.

 

[massey]

A person can have a high Presence without looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger.  A great comedian can have a high Pre, because they can dominate a room with their wit and personality.

 

And a low Pre person might still be memorable, just not in a good way.  Think of some sleazy molester looking guy with a pornstache and a comb-over.  He couldn't persuade you to do anything at all (except to keep your kids away from him), but he definitely stands out.

[Ockham's Spoon]

I would argue that just because you have a high PRE doesn't mean you have to use it anymore than a high STR character has to use their full STR.  And remember Acting is a PRE skill, so with a high PRE you could *act* like a inconsequential schlub. 🙂

[foolishvictor]

I am with Ockham's Spoon on this.

 

My feeling is that presence is used by a player or character.  The character might not stand out in a crowd at all regardless of their presence score, until they put it to use.  A good role playing session should have dramatic moments now and then.  It is in these moments when presence becomes very useful.  (As well as interactive skill rolls of course...)

 

IMO, a character that stands out in a crowd should get a "Distictive Features" complication.  That complication might be related to the character's presence score but it does not have to be.

[mallet]

I agree with all that has been said for the most part, but I do wonder if some of it is from historic rule play and interpretation, then actual rules. 
 

for example, the example of the stand up comic with a high presence score but just looks like a normal guy. 
 

well, that doesn’t match with the stats description in the rules as RAW. Rather that would be something like a character with a PRE of 10, and maybe +15 PRE for telling jokes and stories or something like that. 
 

Look again at the RAW description of PRE. It says it is the character’s forcefulness, charisma and (most importantly in this conversation) Bearing. 
 

Sure, maybe an observer couldn’t tell if someone is brave or a good leader or such just by looking, but bearing is a physical description of someone. Bearing is how they hold themselves and present themselves to the world. It is standing tall, posture, eye contact, etc... it is how impressive (per RAW) a character appears to be when looking at them. 
 

So Dr. Destroyer is impressive looking (high PRE). When looking around a room of normal people and DD is there he is going to stand out and look impressive compared to them. 
 

So, to bring it back around, that means in a room of normal people someone with lower PRE would do the opposite of stand out. Everyone else would be considered impressive compared to them. 
 

so, if you were looking for a threat in that room, the impressive (comparatively) looking people would make the most impression on the searcher, not the unimpressive person. 
 

which, to my point, could be an advantage in some rare situations. 

[Spence]

17 minutes ago, mallet said:

Look again at the RAW description of PRE. It says it is the character’s forcefulness, charisma and (most importantly in this conversation) Bearing. 
 

Sure, maybe an observer couldn’t tell if someone is brave or a good leader or such just by looking, but bearing is a physical description of someone. Bearing is how they hold themselves and present themselves to the world. It is standing tall, posture, eye contact, etc... it is how impressive (per RAW) a character appears to be when looking at them. 

 

For me I don't think people are really seeing PRE as intended.  PRE is always being thought of as a positive.  Charisma is not only good and a persons Bearing can have a can be imposing in a horrific way.  Superman can have a high PRE, but so can Cthulhu. 

 

Overall I think this is another symptom of the "I'll take a hero power/ability

aand try to bend it into something else" rather than "what do I want my character do?" And then finding a build to simulate the concept in the rules.

 

Being so ordinary that people literally don't notice you is more like a limited form of invisibility than a aspect of a characteristic.

 

Just my opinion, YMMV.

 

 

[unclevlad]

I think you're overreading RAW.  To take it to the extreme:  if someone is sleeping, there's nothing indicating bravery, forcefulness, etc.  The description of PRE is when it is active, by and large;  there are also some tells from body language.  But you can't rely on those, because the high PRE person can fake it.  Scrunch shoulders.  Hunch over a bit.  Eyes down, never make eye contact.  Nervous, shuffling steps.  Sounds like low PRE, right?  Acting.

 

To Spence's point...actually, yes, being completely ordinary-looking can be an excellent advantage.  BUT, it's not low PRE;  it's Acting, or even Deep Cover.  It's a skill you practice, a look you cultivate.

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, mallet said:

charisma and (most importantly in this conversation) Bearing. 

 

 

Even if I had left on Forcefulness, (sorry; didn't realize I had cut it until I saw it here in the reply box), there is nothing in that description that implies this person can't be a "normal schlub,"  or even look like a normal schlub.

 

I think for a lot of us old farts, having spent our formative RPG years in D&D, we learned to equate Charisma with appearance.

 

Charisma is so much more than that.   Willem Defoe has lots of charisma; there's just something magnetic about him.  He's also as unattractive as the flight deck on a buzzard's butt.  Honestly, drop that charisma, and he's Steve Buscemi with better teeth and hair.

 

Since 1981, we've asked "well what is presense?  Is it looks?  Is it scariness?  Is it a big personality?"

 

It's presence.  Presence _is_ a word, with an actual definition.  Granted, today it's something of an archaic word outside of theater, but it's still a word, and I'm reasonably certain (I have _zero_ proof of this, but given all the care that went into everything else when the game was being developed, it stands up to reason) that the word "Presence" was known to the G. MacD, and selected absolutely on purpose.

 

Mirriam Webster:

 

Quote

: the fact or condition of being present (see PRESENT entry 3)
2a : the part of space within one's immediate vicinity
b : the neighborhood of one of superior especially royal rank
3 archaic : COMPANY sense 2a
4 : one that is present: such as
a : the actual person or thing that is present
b : something present of a visible or concrete nature
5a : the bearing, carriage, or air of a person
especially : stately or distinguished bearing
b : a noteworthy quality of poise and effectiveness
the actor's commanding presence
6 : something (such as a spirit) felt or believed to be present

 

Full Disclosure:  I ditched the parts that referred to things like "bringing more troops to this base provides a strong military presence here in the islands."

 

 

Anyway, _that_ is presence.  It's what the french call  _je ne sais quoi_ ...   Figuratively, it means "that certain something."  Literally-- and I think that this is extremely important-- it means "I don't know what."  It's a certain, hard-to-pin-down, harder-to-describe quality about a person that -- well, not everyone has it.  Some people positively _radiate_ it.  Some people fill the entire room with it.  English speakers should call to mind descriptive expressions like "he has this air about him...."  or "Men are drawn instinctively to him."  On the other side of the coin:  "I don't know, Becky.  I mean, he's always super-nice and everything, but there's something about him that makes my skin crawl....."

 

It's _different from Charisma_!

 

So let's bother Mirriam Webster again:

 

Quote

: a personal magic of leadership arousing special popular loyalty or enthusiasm for a public figure (such as a political leader)

2 : a special magnetic charm or appeal
 

 

 

(For the two or three people left playing HERO who have feelings similar to mine, I would like to point out that _NEITHER_ of these refer to a person's appearance / good (or unfortunate) _LOOKS_!  If _only_ there were some characteristic that someone could invent to use as a general yardstick for that....)

 

 

So what is Presence?

 

The condition of being present.  In game terms, how _obviously present_ you are without actually trying.  A person who catches attention, who perhaps radiates "I am here, and I am comfortable being here."  A person whose nature makes him an absolute solid part of his surroundings, wherever he may be: confidence?  Comfort?  and unflappability?  A person whose confident carriage is not overlooked, and whose composure is difficult to ruffle.  A person who, simply by being in a room radiates something that _demands_ attention, and perhaps respect...  anyone near him can almost _feel_ that he is near....

 

 

What is Presence _not_?

 

Charisma.   While "an air of leadership" and "confidence in his command" may give a character a high PRE, that is not what PRE is.  The two are compatible; the two can potentiate each other, but the two are _different_.

 

Charm. Presence is not charm.  Batman is not charming.  Not since he stopped smiling back in-- what?  The seventies?  And really, he's only appealing if you're in the same age or intellectual bracket that Shonen Jump markets toward-- no; not even that.  Anyone ever see the old anime "Riki-O: Violence Hero"?   _That's_ the crowd I'm thinking of: tweens and early teens with serious revenge fantasies.  _Disturbing_ revenge fantasies.... 

 

 

 

Beauty.  See "Willem Defoe."   See "Andre the Giant."   See "wet koala."

 

(as an American, it is _extremely_ difficult for me to not say "koala bear," if any of you upside-downers were wondering)

 

As you can see, Presence, in spite of us understanding the concept, is extremely difficult to summarize; sometimes it's not even easy to put into words.  It is, ultimately, "that certain something...."

 

 

It's not Charisma.

 

It's not Beauty.

 

It's Presence.

 

Stop confusing the three.

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------

 

Now, to answer the question:

 

You see what Presence is; you see what Presence does.  (And yes: I full-well understand that the answer to both questions is "sort of" and "I get it, but I can't explain it, either.")

 

Here's the other problem you are up against:

 

There is a long-standing (and, I have to level with you, I have always thought "a little misguided") line of thought that more is more.  More is better.  In HERO, it's "more costs points, so it should be worth something extra."  The (and here's the part I don't always agree with) corollary to that is "less shouldn't be worth as much!" followed by "you got points back; that means it's absolutely crippling!"

 

I'm here to say that nocking your STR down 2 points isn't crippling.  You can spend 80 pts on STR and get MOAR! and have all the benefits, but unless STR is a super-important thing to you-- I don't know; maybe you're a collector or something-- then a 40 STR isn't "worse" than an 80 STR.  It's _less_, but it's not "worse."  An 8 STR is _less_ than an 80, but it's not automatically _worse_.  It's less, and it's different, but it's not debilitating in any way.  At the mean age of this board, I'm willing to bet it's pretty typical, to be honest.  We can't _all_ be crippled.....

 

So what does a reduced PER mean?

 

It means you have less PER than someone who didn't reduce it, and more less than someone who bought extra.  The guy you talked to for twenty minutes about the details of your free energy gizmo couldn't pick you out of a crowd of two just a few minutes later.  Your name doesn't stick in people's minds until they've made a hard, conscious effort to remember your face and associate it with your name.  You can wear a plaid suit to the office party and a month later you have to say "well sure we've met!  Remember?  I wore the plaid suit to the office party!" while the person you're speaking to thinks "well, I remember the suit...."

 

What else does it mean?  You don't look like you're up for the job.  You don't look ready.  You don't seem like the kind of guy I can rely on.  Maybe you're mousy.  Maybe you're shifty.  Maybe you have a week chin and pasty skin and big nervous eyes and people keep mistaking you for an accountant, even when you're wearing your cape and crown.

 

Remember, though, that it doesn't necessarily mean _any_ of these thing:  Becky and her friend will remember for _years_ that guy that makes their skin crawl.....

 

 

Benefits?  Well they're going to be mostly social, and really only beneficial to the anti-social or the introvert: even if they remember you, people aren't going to lump you into the category of "people who interest me" or "people I'd like to hang out with."  Sure, your GM may even decide "people forget exactly who you were" or "people can't describe you ten minutes later" or "people forget appointments with you" or whatever-else, but _before you try discussing that on this board_  ---

 

 

Wait.  Let me specifically preface this next comment:

 

I am _not_ suggesting that you do not discuss those ideas here.  I really am not.  The whole reason I hang out here as much as I do (though i only do it in fits for a few months every few years; this time around has been longer than usual because I've got so many projects going on that keep pulling me back here) is because _most_ of the members here-- the vast majority, truly-- are surprisingly bright, insightful, creative people who enjoy bouncing ideas around and helping folks come up with solutions or alternate approaches to something that you might be having trouble with.    But even then, you need to be absolutely prepared for something, so how's this for a seque?  _Before you try discussing that on this board_---

 

Be prepared that there are a lot of people who are going to respond with "No; if you want something positive, then you have to pay for it."  They aren't being mean-spirited or telling you that you absolutely can't do something the way you want.  Or maybe some of them are, but really....  are they going to show up at your house and police your game?     It's part of the group culture here to agree that everything positive must have a character points price.  Though, when pressed, I'm pretty sure even the most stalwart defender of this position would let Kingsford, Master of Flame use his RKA: massive gout of thousand-degree fire to ignite a campfire, even if he didn't buy a Transform: Non-burning flammable object to very much on fire flammable object.  With that being said....

 

Look at it this way:  if HERO had a size stat, then going by the conventional wisdom, more would always be better, because you paid for it.  Smaller would always suck, period, because it cost less, and really small might have even rewarded you some points back, so you would just suck at having Size.

 

It is now the time of the Forecasting of the Great Smiting, but God is all out of toads, so, in a pinch to stay on schedule, He opens the closet and takes out what he has on hand, and BOOM!  It's raining hand grenades.  Is it better to be big enough to get hit with several every few seconds, or to be small enough to slither into a storm drain and wait it out?  Is the GM going to look you straight in the eye and tell you that you can't slither into the storm drain because that would be a benefit of having sold off your Size?

 

Fortunately HERO doesn't have a Size stat, so we don't get to have that potentially-hilarious conversation.      

 

Oh wait!  Robot Warriors had a Size Sat.....   Who published that.....?

 

That's right!  It was HERO Games!   Not the current crop, mind you, but the guys who built the engine on which this game still runs.  Looking at that example....   Having more size meant bigger, stronger weapons.  Having less size meant being harder to hit.   At no point was it "bad."

 

 

But to stop that digression far too late after it started---

 

Now you have a better idea of what a "low presence" means.  You might decide that it's not what you thought it was, and that you don't really want to lower it.  You might decide to lower it anyway.  Either way, you will want to get with your GM (unless that's you, in which case you'll want to get with your player) and decide just what it means to have a low PRE.  Honestly--- and I don't think anyone on this board will deny that I tend to be pretty liberal with what I allow as "incidentals related to powers and SFX"-- I don't know that I would give it any direct stand-alone benefits.  However, I might let it serve as a (small) modifier to things where it seems appropriate:  Shadowing comes to mind immediately.  Every time the villain thinks he's being followed, he turns his head to check...  and you just don't register.  I mean, he sees you, but you don't trip any alarm bells.  he kind of looks through you and thinks "I must be getting nervous..."

 

Things like that.

 

 

 

Okay, people; 

 

I'm done.

[Spence]

3 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

(For the two or three people left playing HERO who have feelings similar to mine, I would like to point out that _NEITHER_ of these refer to a person's appearance / good (or unfortunate) _LOOKS_!  If _only_ there were some characteristic that someone could invent to use as a general yardstick for that....)

 

OMG you made me snort my soda through my nose. 

 

That is also the type of rule changes that are why I don't play 6th.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Okay, people; 

 

I'm done.

Thanks Duke,

 

Great post!

[Duke Bushido]

  

 

 

Thanks, Spence.  I hate it when a joke or gag goes unnoticed.

 

I want to be up-front, though:  I wasn't actually denigrating 6e.  While it's completely true that I don't play it either, I also don't play 5e ("R"ed or not) or 4e, so it's not like I'm bashing 6e particularly.  I even understand the arguments in favor of doing away with it (I can save two points and buy MOAR DAMAGE!  RAARRR!".  Okay-- that's another joke, but it's about players more than any edition  ).  I _understand_ them.  I don't _agree_ with them.  Removing COM was a pet peeve that just bugs me, but like I said: I understand the argument.  I find it undermines itself with the addition of "Strking Comeliness" as a Disituaplication, but whatever.  Actually, changing "Disadvantages" to Complications was the other pet peeve.      And don't get me started on the overwhelming Gothemo overtones of "Situations...."

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Spence]

11 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

I want to be up-front, though:  I wasn't actually denigrating 6e. 

 

I don't intend to either.  I just don't enjoy the extent of the changes. 

 

But to be fair 5th also made some change that makes you think they did it just to fiddle with the game.  Like Secret ID, in 5th they changed it from the Disadvantage called Secret ID at 15 points to the Disadvantage called Social Limitation and then added a sidebar to tell you that the Social Limitation called Secret ID cost 15 points.  So they had to add a sidebar and a additional index entry just to tell you where to find Secret ID.  All in all an exercise of the pointless, multiple entries to clean up what could have easily been left as a separate entry.  Zero net gain.

 

5th just moved the game a few lanes over.  6th on the other hand made significant changes in the core structure that in the end just never felt right to me.  Too long with 1st thru 4th edition I guess.  I only lean toward 5thR because I can actually lay my hands on physical rulebooks and supplements for it.  If I had or could get 4th edition books, I wouldn't look back.

[mallet]

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

The description of PRE is when it is active, by and large;  there are also some tells from body language.  But you can't rely on those, because the high PRE person can fake it.  Scrunch shoulders.  Hunch over a bit.  Eyes down, never make eye contact.  Nervous, shuffling steps.  Sounds like low PRE, right?  Acting.

 

To Spence's point...actually, yes, being completely ordinary-looking can be an excellent advantage.  BUT, it's not low PRE;  it's Acting, or even Deep Cover.  It's a skill you practice, a look you cultivate.

 

But what are they Acting as? From your own write up they are Acting like a person with low Presence. 

 

You know the old saying/belief that "women love a man with an English accent." Say that was an established "Fact" and would maybe give a character a +1 on a Seduction roll vs a certain female character. Well if a character was an American and used Acting to fake an English accent he would get that bonus +1, but if a player had a character that WAS English and always had that accent, then they would automatically get that +1 to their Seduction roll. Not Acting roll needed. 

 

So if there was a reason a High PRE character might want to act as a Low PRE person, and would making Acting rolls to portray that, then whatever benefit that granted them, I would grant to a low PRE character automatically. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

So what is Presence?

 

The condition of being present.  In game terms, how _obviously present_ you are without actually trying.  A person who catches attention, who perhaps radiates "I am here, and I am comfortable being here."  A person whose nature makes him an absolute solid part of his surroundings, wherever he may be: confidence?  Comfort?  and unflappability?  A person whose confident carriage is not overlooked, and whose composure is difficult to ruffle.  A person who, simply by being in a room radiates something that _demands_ attention, and perhaps respect...  anyone near him can almost _feel_ that he is near....

 

 

So what does a reduced PER mean?

 

The guy you talked to for twenty minutes about the details of your free energy gizmo couldn't pick you out of a crowd of two just a few minutes later.  Your name doesn't stick in people's minds until they've made a hard, conscious effort to remember your face and associate it with your name.  You can wear a plaid suit to the office party and a month later you have to say "well sure we've met!  Remember?  I wore the plaid suit to the office party!" while the person you're speaking to thinks "well, I remember the suit...."

 

What else does it mean?  You don't look like you're up for the job.  You don't look ready. 

 

 

BOLDING is mine, obviously. 

 

But before I reply, yes, this is just a "thought experiment" on the rules. I've been playing and mainly GMing HERO, on and off, since the mid-80's, but GMing a lot more now in recent years as other games have lost their luster. So, I won't take any offence to replies, and am not trying to get people angry or upset. Just a philosophical look at the stat of PRE and how it could (should?) sometimes work in a character's favor is they have a low score in the stat. 

 

Back to the reply...

 

So by all the "what is Presence" you've described (in detail) and "what does a low PRE mean?" we see that this is basically what I've been discussing. "A Person who catches attention", "A person whose confident carriage is not overlooked", "something that demands attention", "couldn't pick you out of a crowd...", You don't look ready.", and so on. 

 

These all describe what someone looking into a crowd would see about the people there. PRE effects how people perceive the character.  Not if they can see them, but what their feeling about the character is. 

 

So going back, and expanding on, one of my original examples. 

 

Modern day setting. Private security guards are protecting a high value target in a downtown hotel. They hear "chatter" that a hitman is on the street outside the building just as they are moving their ward out to a waiting car. The bodyguards out on the street go into high alert and need to identify any possible threat from the 30 people out on the street at that time. None of them are acting strange or have any obvious weapons. The Hitman could be anyone...

 

Out of the 30, say 80% are perfectly normal people with a PRE of 6-9. 10% have above average PRE of 10+, and 10% have a lower then average PRE of 5 or less. 

 

If the higher a person's PRE is the more: _obviously present_ you are, A person who catches attention, A person whose confident carriage is not overlooked, simply by being in a room radiates something that _demands_ attention

 

And the lower a person's PRE is means: couldn't pick you out of a crowd of two just a few minutes later, You don't look ready

 

Then it is probably safe to assume that the Bodyguards will be more drawn to checking out the people around them with high PRE, because they catch attention, they are not easily overlooked, the demand attention. And low PRE people "don't look ready" or don't look intimidating or threatening. 

 

It is not that the Bodyguards don't see the low PRE people, it is just that they don't think of them as being dangerous or a threat. Compared to the High and Normal PRE people crowding the city street who by the very nature of having a higher PRE stand out more and draw more attention.

 

So in this scenario it would appear to be that a hitman having a very low PRE has an advantage because the Body Guard's wouldn't consider them of "Value" or more accurately in military or law enforcement terms not a "high priority target" and would focus more on "the very intense looking man striding down the street with a purpose" or the "stunning woman confidently walking into the hotel" and so on. 

 

With only seconds to make their move, they don't consider the low PRE guy on the street until he gets into short range and draws a gun. Now they only can use Abort actions to try and stop him before he shoots the person they are guarding. 

 

That is what I am getting at. In certain situations, and times, having a low PRE can/could/ maybe should, have a benefit. I know, like Duke B, said, some people can't handle that a low stat could ever or should ever be beneficial, but I disagree. Sometimes low stats or disadvantages can have benefits. If you have a broken leg and are on crutches someone might hold open a door for you, that they wouldn't for a healthy person. That is a benefit, despite the broken leg being a disadvantage. Same if a person is blind or deaf, other people (at least I hope most would) go a little bit out of their way to help them in some situations. Again, a disadvantage that has some benefits. Handicap parking in a busy mall parking lot just before Christmas. 

 

Do the "benefits" in these situations outweigh the disadvantage (or low stat)? No, not even close, but once in awhile there is a benefit to a disadvantage. And that is what I am saying with this thread. Sometimes having a low PRE might have an in-game benefit. 

 

 

 

[unclevlad]

How is someone holding a door open for you, a benefit?  Whereas you *are* asking for a game-significant benefit.

 

We've made our cases;  you're just repeating an argument we've already countered, so for me, this thread's done as far as I'm concerned.

[Duke Bushido]

While I agree with Vlad-- we've pretty well done this subject in--

 

What you are suggesting is pretty much what I had said:  _everything_ is beneficial-- even Disadvantages-- in very limited, very specific, case-by-case situations.  This is but one of the many reasons that a GM is needed to play this game and have fun with it.

 

 

[foolishvictor]

Let's try looking at this another way.

 

Consider identical twins.  One is naturally able to interact with others easily and the other is so shy eye contact is uncomfortable and conversations are virtually impossible.  How would this be reflected in terms of stats?  Keep in mind they are physically identical.  Now consider twins that are absolutely identical mentally and physically.  One is injured causing him to lose a lot of weight.  He recovers but is still very thin and weak.  Meanwhile, the other has devoted his life to bodybuilding.  In terms of interacting with other people they would say the same thing, possibly even the same way.  If physical size and muscle are not important (for example when meeting an alien species perhaps) their respective ability to interact might be the same whereas their interactions with other people might be affected.

 

Here is another example, Dr. Crazy has extreme difficulty interacting with other people however he has constructed a gigantic mechanized suit of armour that he wears to terrorize people for fun.  How would this be reflected in stats?

 

Strictly speaking if you wish to dive into the details you could probably identify a dozen psychological and physical characteristics and assign a point cost for each just to deal with presence.  

 

Rather than getting hung up on the word "presence" try asking yourself how impressive someone (or something) is.  You might need to interact with someone to realize that they are impressive or you might notice it when you see them.  As GM its your call. 

 

Personally, the notion that a character who has paid CP for a presence score cannot hide in a crowd makes no sense unless that character has a disadvantage (or complication) making it hard for them to blend into a crowd but that is just my 2 cents.

[Duke Bushido]

There is nothing in having a personality that demands attention or draws you to him that says he stands out.

 

It seems counter-intuitive, but being bold and unflappable is not the same thing as being painted bright orange.

 

This quite probably why the french went with "that certain something; I don't know what" instead of sticking a word on it.

 

The takeaway is that it is _not_ Charisma.

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

EDIT:

 

That should read "there is nothing in having a personality that commands attention that means you can't hide that, or that you can't physically hide."

 

Sorry about that.