Rebuilding the weapons list

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

There might be some overlap, but they all seek different end states.

 

Ideally all three, a believable game simulation that makes choosing specific weapons interesting.  Every weapon that was used for any length of time was done so because they were effective and useful, at least in specific circumstances.  

 

I see the gradiations the same way you do.  Fist loads, open hand, and light, small weapons (stilletto, etc) would have either no DEX max or high enough as to be outside normal human range.  Pole arms and things like mauls would be pretty low.

 

The trick is to find a way that gives reasonable results without being too complicated or penalizing.

 

Giving an absolute number for the weapon is the easiest to use but doesn't make as much sense.  Picking up a Halberd and trying to use it will be slower for a guy with 10 DEX as well as one with 19 DEX.  So it probably ought to be a small penalty rather than a max number to simulate this effect. But if you are extremely strong, then the weight and length will be significantly less of an issue, so STR probably should play a part as well.  But then you're getting down to a formula someone has to calculate when they grab a weapon: DEX -4 except +1 For every 5 STR over STR MIN, see table 14.6 and include the Coriolis modifier....

[theinfn8]

5 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

The trick is to find a way that gives reasonable results without being too complicated or penalizing.

 

Giving an absolute number for the weapon is the easiest to use but doesn't make as much sense.  Picking up a Halberd and trying to use it will be slower for a guy with 10 DEX as well as one with 19 DEX.  So it probably ought to be a small penalty rather than a max number to simulate this effect. But if you are extremely strong, then the weight and length will be significantly less of an issue, so STR probably should play a part as well.  But then you're getting down to a formula someone has to calculate when they grab a weapon: DEX -4 except +1 For every 5 STR over STR MIN, see table 14.6 and include the Coriolis modifier....

 

Yeah, that's the rub. There are a lot of factors that can adjust the realistic weapon speed and it could easily baloon into a ridiculously unwieldy mess. Though, thinking about the STR min issue, we are already calculating additional DCs for higher STR. It could just be added as an additional application or a different way to "spend" those DCs. One or two DEX faster in a heroic game can make a big difference ...

[Spence]

A lot of interesting discussion here.  Much of it deeper into the numbers than I usually go.

 

I don't think you can "fix" a weapons table for any system by fixing the table itself.  The key is implied by those that have actual experience.  It isn't the weapon, it is the wielder.  Both physical and skill.

 

As mentioned a zweihander can be wielded both powerfully and quickly, but I guarantee if it was in my hands it would be neither

 

I know you want to avoid the complication of figuring per character, but I really believe that in the end, that is the only way to get to where you really want to be.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well, the closest I think the system comes to that is the familiarity system.  I'm tweaking that slightly as well: a slightly lower OCV penalty, but adding in that without familiarity, you can only use strike and haymaker maneuvers with that weapon.  It takes training to use weapons with special maneuvers.

[Spence]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Well, the closest I think the system comes to that is the familiarity system.  I'm tweaking that slightly as well: a slightly lower OCV penalty, but adding in that without familiarity, you can only use strike and haymaker maneuvers with that weapon.  It takes training to use weapons with special maneuvers.

 

 

Could be, I don't consider myself enough of an expert. 

Like most people I can easily tell if something is broke, but that doesn't mean I can fix it

 

But in this I do not think there is a direct plug in.  I think to really reflect the differences in weapons it needs to be a combination of weapon stat, character stat and built abilities.  Much the same way we build Talents to reflect things not directly duplicated in the core builds.  

 

For me I'll just use the charts as made or not so subtly "borrowing" new ones from people like you 

 

I briefly flirted with fencing in the early 80's and then the SCA a short time later, but never really went very far.  What I did learn is that I do not have the knowledge to really understand the nuances in a way necessary to build what you are trying to. 

[Scott Ruggels]

 What it is looking like, is that, related to the weight, there is a subtraction to DEX for DEX order, A Character's strength will modify that by increments of 5 beyond the strength minimum.  CSLs with that weapon will also help to remove penalties as well.

I like the idea of only strike and Haymaker for weapons you are unfamiliar with. I like that a lot. Makes Weapons familiarity worth something. and CSLs only apply to weapons you are familiar with, otherwise no (?)

[theinfn8]

Seems like a decent summation. Now to start working on that chart...

[Christopher R Taylor]

This kind of thing helps me with figuring out weapons as well.

 

There's been so much gigantically amazing stuff discovered and studied in just the last 10-20 years over medieval weapons and armor that almost everything has changed about what we understood about them.  In other words, the weapon list from AD&D in 1979 or even the Fantasy Hero weapon lists from the 80s is just not up to date.  The more we study of this the better we can give a good representation for a game.

[Beast]

On 12/3/2021 at 8:04 AM, theinfn8 said:

I work with swords mostly, so that is my typical baseline. So do we assume that "fists" means no DEX limit then and proceed from there? Most knives are probably in the same speed category as a punch. Larger knives moving slightly slower, then moving to short swords, rapiers, arming swords or back swords, long swords, and then the bigger two handers. How much of a drop is reasonable without seriously (or unrealistically) limiting a character? And are we attacking that from a perspective of real life emulation, cinematic/fiction emulation, or just making the weapon differences more interesting than it currently is? There might be some overlap, but they all seek different end states.

 

I absolutely loved the discussion on firearm rounds and body armour in the Dark Champions forum. I've adopted that model (mostly) when I implement modern weapons in a game. It would be awesome to have something similar for melee weapons.

I would also factor in reach over speed
I use to fence and do light weapons, and a stophit with a waited move and rapier beats a dagger lunge everyday and I'm slow

[Beast]

1st ed RuneQuest had Strike ranks which was a formula of weapon speed Dex and reach
but as everybody was the same speed

[Duke Bushido]

On 12/5/2021 at 1:35 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

Well, the closest I think the system comes to that is the familiarity system.  I'm tweaking that slightly as well: a slightly lower OCV penalty,

 

Just tossing this out with no thought at all, but hiw do you feel about "familiarity" means x penalilties, while "skill" means less penalties?

 

 

 

On 12/5/2021 at 1:35 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

but adding in that without familiarity, you can only use strike and haymaker maneuvers with that weapon.  It takes training to use weapons with special maneuvers.

 

This was the idea that caught my interest.  Perhaps a "weapons maneuvers" chart, either per weapon or per type or something, would better allow or reflect what you are after.  Swords and such would have "deflect" as q dodge option, and have a "thrust" and separate "swing" maneuver, perhaps divided between overhand chops and horizontal swings or even from-the-ankles heave maneuvers?  Subdual options availaible with each, etc.

 

Again: havent put much thought int I it at all, but now I kind of want to....

 

28 minutes ago, Beast said:

I use to fence and do light weapons, and a stophit with a waited move and rapier beats a dagger lunge everyday and I'm slow

 

For those of us who havent dabbled in fencing and also may have been thrown out of the SCA for dueling with whiffle bats, could you explain what that actually means?   No alarm; I genuinely,have no idea what half of those terms mean, and I would like to fix that particular knowledge gap. 

 

 

[Beast]

46 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

For those of us who havent dabbled in fencing and also may have been thrown out of the SCA for dueling with whiffle bats, could you explain what that actually means?   No alarm; I genuinely,have no idea what half of those terms mean, and I would like to fix that particular knowledge gap. 

Sure no problem
a stophit is where both fencers are at the ready
Fencer A quickly moves 1 foot forward and is leaning forward(knee is over the foot)and extending their main gauche(a dagger with a hand guard that is more than just a cross piece)

Fencer B extends his rapier into his lunging foe(a rapier is 3 times longer than a dagger or main gauche)and allows fencer A to impale himself on his blade
Fencer B uses is main gauche to engage and deflect fencer A's rapier

so in this the longer weapon wins
 

there are other maneuvers that also allow long weapons to shorten up to defend or attack up closer than normal(Hafting is 1 term)
there may be need to a new range(in close,melee,inside your foes normal weapon range.....)

the attack range of a dagger is at best 12" from the wielder's furthest reach
the attack range of a rapier is 36" from the wielder's furthest reach
range is also a big factor

 

Wiffle bats??????????????
we spared with shinais and fencing masks and maybe gloves and that was light weapons in the SCA group I hung out with
and we made Naginatas out of closet poles and broken shinais(using the unbroken bamboo staves)

a shinai is bamboo sword( no edge the string is that)made from a length of bamboo about 44" long split longways and then held together with leather for a handle,end cap and a mid piece
they make a great slapping noise and sting a bit when you get hit but nothing major
a naginata is a sword blade on the end of a haft 30" of blade 5' of pole
I could take on 3 people with shinais and win 50% of the time 90% vs 1 or 2

[Christopher R Taylor]

I do like the idea of maneuvers that one weapon is better with than others, but I'm not sure how to really represent that in Hero terms.  Swords getting +1 OCV kind of covers that, its just a good overall weapon that is easier to get a useful hit with, while axes hit harder, but take a particular sort of swing

[Beast]

23 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I do like the idea of maneuvers that one weapon is better with than others, but I'm not sure how to really represent that in Hero terms.  Swords getting +1 OCV kind of covers that, its just a good overall weapon that is easier to get a useful hit with, while axes hit harder, but take a particular sort of swing

battle ranges the to be expanded
normal in Hero is 2m
for me that is sword(rapier)range
next is 1m dagger(mostly stabby weapons, some slash)Swords lose +1 OCV, too close to swing a 2handed axe, etc....

grapple(closer would be having sex)stabby weapons can only apply 1/2 of normal strength(not 15 down to 10 but 15 down to 8

 

[Duke Bushido]

First and foremost:

 

Thanks, Beast! 

 

 

46 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I do like the idea of maneuvers that one weapon is better with than others, but I'm not sure how to really represent that in Hero terms.  Swords getting +1 OCV kind of covers that, its just a good overall weapon that is easier to get a useful hit with, while axes hit harder, but take a particular sort of swing

 

 

That's sort of the key how you would do it:

Swords getting a +1 OCV....  when?   All the time?   Or with certain maneuvers?

 

Make a maneuver chart that includes the standard maneuvers and then sword-specific maneuvers.  In other words, rather than try to refigure all the damages and DEX modifiers and all that per weapon, create a weapon-specific maneuver chart.  I could be way, _way_ off base, but I think it would allow you to specifically demonstrate more difference between one sort of sword and another, if that's what you're going for.

 

Even from weapon to weapon:  Swords get a "Stab" or "thrust" maneuver, and axes do not-- or they are very, very bad at it, given that all their weight is as far from the wielder as it can get.  Spears do not get "slash" or "chop" maneuvers-- or these maneuvers are defaulted to "subdual damage only" or something like that, and possibly even take damage from being used this way.

 

 

In this way, rather than "swords get a +1 OCV, period," one class of swords gets +1 OCV with these things; -1 OCV with these things, +1 DCV with these things-- etc, etc, etc.  Plus you can have damage mods based on the maneuver: Thrust may take a CV penalty, or even require an extra Phase, but my have a BODY damage bonus all it's own, or perhaps even grant "armor piercing" or some such to at least some part of its damage.

 

Like I said, I really didn't put thought into this; I was at work, so I was only able jot down the quick glimpse I took around the the room when the light flicked on.  Lots of work?  Definitely.  Worth it?  No idea.  However, the work, like almost everything else in HERO, is front-loaded.  Once it's done, then it's done.  When Koloth the Virile buys his axe, it comes with this handy maneuver chart he can tape to the edge of his character sheet.

 

Sure: "Weapon's Element" and all that--

 

but here's another angle.

 

Remember that the current beloved and "core essential" martial arts rules were originally not that at all, but a particularly creative GM playing around with Skill Levels to custom tailor some ideas for a very specific campaign.  The idea caught a lot of fancies, and >BOOM< -- essential rules; inviolable part of the HERO System; Duke has to hear about it forever no matter how silly he finds it to be.

 

Such hyper-specialized "this is how fantasy weapons work" rules might be next; who knows?

 

 

 

47 minutes ago, Beast said:

a shinai is bamboo sword( no edge the string is that)made from a length of bamboo about 44" long split longways and then held together with leather for a handle,end cap and a mid piece
they make a great slapping noise and sting a bit when you get hit but nothing major

 

 

if this is accurate-- and I assume it is-- then we were kicked out for sparring with $1.29 Shinai.  about 40 inches long, make a great slapping noise when hit and sting....  well, more than a bit, but what do you expect for a buck-and-a-half?     A strip of masking tape down the length makes a handy edge. 

 

And yes; seriously.  We were kicked out of the SCA for sparring with whiffle bats.  Apparently, in spite of it being whiffle bats-- the very thing with which siblings and stooge beaten their other siblings for a couple of generations-- because we were not wearing armor while doing it. 

 

I haven't told that story in years.  In fact, the last time I told it, I told it here.   Right after the myth of the North American Whiffle Bat, actually.  We had a couple of Australians from Perth who did not understand how a Whiffle bat could terrorize one roommate but not the other, so I sent them one.     

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I like some of these ideas, but the problem is you don't want to turn it into Chart Law where you have to consult table 4.2 to find out what matrix you use on page 742 adjusted by chart 13.8

[Beast]

8 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

First and foremost:

 

Thanks, Beast! 

 

 

 

 

That's sort of the key how you would do it:

Swords getting a +1 OCV....  when?   All the time?   Or with certain maneuvers?

 

Make a maneuver chart that includes the standard maneuvers and then sword-specific maneuvers.  In other words, rather than try to refigure all the damages and DEX modifiers and all that per weapon, create a weapon-specific maneuver chart.  I could be way, _way_ off base, but I think it would allow you to specifically demonstrate more difference between one sort of sword and another, if that's what you're going for.

 

Even from weapon to weapon:  Swords get a "Stab" or "thrust" maneuver, and axes do not-- or they are very, very bad at it, given that all their weight is as far from the wielder as it can get.  Spears do not get "slash" or "chop" maneuvers-- or these maneuvers are defaulted to "subdual damage only" or something like that, and possibly even take damage from being used this way.

 

 

In this way, rather than "swords get a +1 OCV, period," one class of swords gets +1 OCV with these things; -1 OCV with these things, +1 DCV with these things-- etc, etc, etc.  Plus you can have damage mods based on the maneuver: Thrust may take a CV penalty, or even require an extra Phase, but my have a BODY damage bonus all it's own, or perhaps even grant "armor piercing" or some such to at least some part of its damage.

 

Like I said, I really didn't put thought into this; I was at work, so I was only able jot down the quick glimpse I took around the the room when the light flicked on.  Lots of work?  Definitely.  Worth it?  No idea.  However, the work, like almost everything else in HERO, is front-loaded.  Once it's done, then it's done.  When Koloth the Virile buys his axe, it comes with this handy maneuver chart he can tape to the edge of his character sheet.

 

Sure: "Weapon's Element" and all that--

 

but here's another angle.

 

Remember that the current beloved and "core essential" martial arts rules were originally not that at all, but a particularly creative GM playing around with Skill Levels to custom tailor some ideas for a very specific campaign.  The idea caught a lot of fancies, and >BOOM< -- essential rules; inviolable part of the HERO System; Duke has to hear about it forever no matter how silly he finds it to be.

 

Such hyper-specialized "this is how fantasy weapons work" rules might be next; who knows?

 

 

 

 

 

if this is accurate-- and I assume it is-- then we were kicked out for sparring with $1.29 Shinai.  about 40 inches long, make a great slapping noise when hit and sting....  well, more than a bit, but what do you expect for a buck-and-a-half?     A strip of masking tape down the length makes a handy edge. 

 

And yes; seriously.  We were kicked out of the SCA for sparring with whiffle bats.  Apparently, in spite of it being whiffle bats-- the very thing with which siblings and stooge beaten their other siblings for a couple of generations-- because we were not wearing armor while doing it. 

 

I haven't told that story in years.  In fact, the last time I told it, I told it here.   Right after the myth of the North American Whiffle Bat, actually.  We had a couple of Australians from Perth who did not understand how a Whiffle bat could terrorize one roommate but not the other, so I sent them one.     

 

 

 

Maneuver charts by weapon I LOVE(sorry the crunch geek came out)

 

whiffle bats
childhood trama?

 

Just now, Christopher R Taylor said:

I like some of these ideas, but the problem is you don't want to turn it into Chart Law where you have to consult table 4.2 to find out what matrix you use on page 742 adjusted by chart 13.8

I'd just base it off of the Fam chart

 

[Duke Bushido]

8 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I like some of these ideas, but the problem is you don't want to turn it into Chart Law where you have to consult table 4.2 to find out what matrix you use on page 742 adjusted by chart 13.8

 

 

Dude, HERO did that when they split "Maneuvers" and "Martial Maneuvers" back in the very first edition.   It got _worse_ when the co-opted and officialized Alston's martial arts schtick.  Throw in things like "Weapons Elements" and the "Weapons Master" and "familiarity versus skill," and....

 

well, it's just not more than a drop in the bucket at this point.  And I am not suggesting any intermingling between the actual maneuver charts and the weapon-specific maneuvers.  I am simply suggesting 

 

I am simply suggesting the idea that weapons-specific maneuver charts are worth investigating, given that I believe they could be used to create the granularity and differentiation you say that you are seeking.

 

 

[dmjalund]

Just have a place on the character sheet to copy the manoeuvres for your signature weapon

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, dmjalund said:

Just have a place on the character sheet to copy the manoeuvres for your signature weapon

 

 

Okay, fine; that will work, too.

 

I can't believe the lack of love for Scotch tape around here.....   >:[

 

 

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

On 12/18/2021 at 8:53 PM, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

Okay, fine; that will work, too.

 

I can't believe the lack of love for Scotch tape around here.....   >:[

 

 

 

 

Because if you don’t use Library tape, the page gets a sticky yellow stripe. 

[SCUBA Hero]

On 12/18/2021 at 4:05 PM, Beast said:

battle ranges the to be expanded
normal in Hero is 2m
for me that is sword(rapier)range
next is 1m dagger(mostly stabby weapons, some slash)Swords lose +1 OCV, too close to swing a 2handed axe, etc....

grapple(closer would be having sex)stabby weapons can only apply 1/2 of normal strength(not 15 down to 10 but 15 down to 8

 

(Going off of memory here, I can look up references if need be...)

 

First edition Fantasy Hero had something like this.  There were Short, Medium, and Long weapons, (think dagger, sword, polearm) .  In a fight between a character with a Short weapon and a second character with a Medium weapon, the Short weapon was at -1 OCV until he hit, at which time the Medium weapon was at -1 OCV.  This represented fighting at optimum range for each weapon.  You may be able to use or modify that.

[IndianaJoe3]

On 12/22/2021 at 6:01 PM, SCUBA Hero said:

(Going off of memory here, I can look up references if need be...)

 

First edition Fantasy Hero had something like this.  There were Short, Medium, and Long weapons, (think dagger, sword, polearm) .  In a fight between a character with a Short weapon and a second character with a Medium weapon, the Short weapon was at -1 OCV until he hit, at which time the Medium weapon was at -1 OCV.  This represented fighting at optimum range for each weapon.  You may be able to use or modify that.

 

I have seen the same rules in 6e somewhere, but I can't locate them right now.

[SCUBA Hero]

Found it in Fantasy Hero Complete, p. 173, as an option - Unequal Reach.

[SCUBA Hero]

This is also in 6E2, p. 202 under Hand-To-Hand Weapons -> OCV Penalties (also as an option, with a yield sign icon).  That is referenced in 6E Fantasy Hero, p. 211 under Using Weapons.