Oops! You lost your head!

[Sicarius]

For those of you who have read the Black Company you know the Taken are hard to kill.  Limper gets his head cut off and a demon-dog carries around that head getting shamen and then priests to build him new bodies. Once of wicker than of clay.  Soulcatcher gets her noggin chopped off by Croaker and years later she forces him to stitch it back on.  In the mean time she walked around carrying her head in a box and was able to function yet at a limited level.  She was still able to summon an imp, cast sleep spells and perform other sorcery.

In GURPS hard to kill could likely cover this.  How would you build it in HERO as a power, ability or spell which I might call Life-keeping?  Life support, regeneration and heal all seem inadequate and I am leaning to some type of transformation triggered by terminal damage which keeps the critter alive but at somewhat less than 100% based upon that nature of the wound.  Without a body limper couldn't speak presumably because no lungs equals no air flow.  That meant no spells which required gestures or incantations.

Anyhow, I still messing with HERO and this one has me stumped.🤐

Thanks in advance.

M

[Grailknight]

I would do it as a Multiform triggered by Regeneration from death by the main form with No Conscious Control. The Multiform would also be Limited (Can't Revert) until the damage is repaired(Soulcatcher) or has an additional form when provided with a substitute body(Limper).

[Sicarius]

1 hour ago, Grailknight said:

I would do it as a Multiform triggered by Regeneration from death by the main form with No Conscious Control. The Multiform would also be Limited (Can't Revert) until the damage is repaired(Soulcatcher) or has an additional form when provided with a substitute body(Limper).

That seems like a good way to do it.  HERO is cool but its sometimes like having tons of ingredients and no recipe.  I suppose once you learn how to cook it becomes less difficult.  Right now I'm trying to think of various characters in books and movies and how to best represent them using the system.

Thank you

[unclevlad]

I'd actually build it as a Hidden Life power.  You'd have to target the seat of life;  even mangling the body wouldn't necessarily be enough.  There might be some limit to that, but even, say, doing enough damage to get to -2X BODY might not be lethal per se.  (The character has to also have Resurrection regen to be meaningful.)  

 

Hidden life could mean that the body will reassemble itself in time...but that means at least the head and trunk have to be reconstructed.  If parts are close by?  Then they may reconstruct on their own.  If not?  Then it can't happen.  So Lurker's carting her head around to avoid someone locking it away or tossing it into the Cracks of Doom.

 

This is, by and large, a plot device power, so...points, schmoints.  What matters is, what are the consequences?  Effect on Perception...normal sight might be gone, but perhaps not stuff from the Unusual Senses group.  I don't recall if Lurker had gestures/incants...been a LONG time since I read the Black Company...but you could substitute an activation roll like 13- instead...sometimes she messes up.  It's all plot device at this point, so it's whatever fits the story.

 

And here's a hint...characters from books, movies, and ESPECIALLY comics are often HARD!!!! to define.  Plot device abounds.  Maguffins multiply like tribbles.  Writers never care about points, it's "whatever fits the story."  

[LoneWolf]

Do they still take damage or other effects of their wounds?   What happens when they get their heads cut off or suffer other normally lethal wounds? 

 

If all you are looking for is the is to make them harder to kill some extra defenses only to prevent death works.  Take invisible power effects and to make it look like they actually took the damage.  An extra 12 points of resistant defense should probably work.  Remember this is on top of their normal DEF.

 

24pts Hard to Kill:  +12 DEF resistant defense, Hardened, Impenetrable, fully invisible, only to prevent death
 

[Grailknight]

11 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Do they still take damage or other effects of their wounds?   What happens when they get their heads cut off or suffer other normally lethal wounds? 

 

If all you are looking for is the is to make them harder to kill some extra defenses only to prevent death works.  Take invisible power effects and to make it look like they actually took the damage.  An extra 12 points of resistant defense should probably work.  Remember this is on top of their normal DEF.

 

24pts Hard to Kill:  +12 DEF resistant defense, Hardened, Impenetrable, fully invisible, only to prevent death
 

 

The OP's question is how they survive after getting their heads cut off. In the books, mages of a certain power level are hard to kill and even harder to keep down.

 

Soulcatcher has her head chopped off in combat and revives sometime later(It wasn't feasible to stick around and finish her.). She has her body carry her head in a basket that she can see from and stalks the heroes for a 2 year march  using her magic to keep her under a disguise on the outskirts of towns and keeping tabs with summoned critters. 

 

The Limper was pretty much a paraplegic even before his head was chopped off. His head rolled into a muddy ditch and was dug up by a hellhound months later. He was given a wicker body and then a clay one after that was destroyed. 

 

It is possible to stop their regeneration by burning them to ash  or pulverizing and scattering the remains and their are greater magics that will kill them.

Their toughness is more 3/4 Damage Reduction for PD and ED as they can be killed by a determined mob of soldiers willing to take casualties in close quarters. But the intact heads will revive at a diminished power level and seek their old or replacement bodies.

[Hugh Neilson]

They survive when their heads are cut off because that is part of the SFX of the power they purchase to survive what would otherwise be mortal wounds.  IPE defenses or extra BOD both make sense to me. So does a Multiform with Accidental Change (becomes a sentient severed head under 'x' conditions, such as taking enough BOD to be dead were it not for their IPE extra BOD.

 

Perhaps the better question is, if this is only relevant if they are decapitated, how will you make tat relevant in a Hero game.  It seems like decapitation is much more common in the source material than in a Hero game.

[SCUBA Hero]

I'm not familiar with the source material, but what Keith Curtis did with Animates in his Savage Earth setting seems similar:

 

Animates (savageearth.net)

 

[reesuski]

I'd actually build it as a Hidden Life power.  You'd have to target the seat of life;  even mangling the body wouldn't necessarily be enough.  There might be some limit to that, but even, say, doing enough damage to get to -2X BODY might not be lethal per se.  (The character has to also have Resurrection regen to be meaningful.)  

[Duke Bushido]

I know better, bur I am stupid enough that I am going to do this anyway, so sit back, grab the popcorn, and watch the beating unfold. 

 

can anyone point out where in the rules being decapitated means you have to die?

 

remember that not only are hit locations optional, so, too, are the bleeding rules.  Even if you _are_ using the bleeding rules, there is quite a lot of leeway to decide what results in bleeding and what doesn't.  Assuming that you are, then when you take an amount of BODY that reduces you to negative, you bleed.

 

okay; fine.

 

if you take a headshot, you suffer a BODY multiplier to your damage.

 

okay; great.

 

Problematically, decapitation is _not_ a head wound.  We can argue that later, of course.  As written, it could be considered a torso wound, so figure your damage accordingly.

 

HERO doesn't do Location X has Y Hit Points, so we don't really have a method of determining just how much damage applied directly to the neck (which is not available on the hit location chart, but let's just say that it is a Called Shot with modifiers akin to a called ahot to the head) it takes to remove a head.

 

I am not completely certain, but I am willing to bet that it is less than enough Body damage to reduce the character to negative Body.

 

This is one of thise instances where the superhero / SFX are free thing really shows itself.  Because you can declare that your character is a robot or a cyborg or a sapient tree, you do not automatically fall over bleeding when someone lips off your anything.

 

We view it as a given because we know that people tend to much sooner without their heads attached than they do if the head remains in place.  Regardless of our biases, however, the rules don't actually make it mandatory.

 

That being said, strictly by RAW, there is absolutely no power construct required to remain alive after decapitation (speaking may be impaired a not, but that isnt mandated, either, I am,afraid). Nor is that, according to RAW, any way to actually decapitate someone short of completely pulverizing their torso (again, breathing may be impaired a bit, but it is still not mandatory).

 

Granted, releasing this bit of news to your players may result in lots of decapitated heroes fighting bravely on for decades, wearing their heads on a necklace like some gruesome pendant.

 

All that being said, I would think that the options for your build are, by raw, as simpke as declaring that decapitation doesn't kill them.  Granted, this will encourage some to run to the rules questions thread and ask for a new rule regarding decapitation, so I will go further and say this is as simple as making it a perk (possibly as part of a package).  Beyond that, consider the automaton power "does not bleed" and call it a day.

 

 

Now then, go ahead.  Feel free to beat me like I was the third monkey on Noah's Ark.

 

 

 

 

 

[steriaca]

Nope. You can't actually be decapitated (which is a neck wound by the way) until you hit negative twice your body and take a neck wound as the final blow.

 

Of course, to remove a head without killing take a Transformation Attack instead. 

[unclevlad]

Duke:  you're probably right that by RAW, no special power is needed.  That said, I'd probably still define it because it's expected that a decapitation *should* kill.  The advantage of something like Hidden Life is it doesn't matter how much damage the body takes, or where.  The character cannot be killed by typical damage.  It requires something else.  By the same token, tho...destroy the Hidden Life, and the target is instantly obliterated.

 

Classic D&D example of Hidden Life would be the D&D lich's phylactery.

[reesuski]

Do they still take damage or other effects of their wounds?   What happens when they get their heads cut off or suffer other normally lethal wounds? 

 

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[Hugh Neilson]

On 6/7/2022 at 7:31 PM, Duke Bushido said:

I know better, bur I am stupid enough that I am going to do this anyway, so sit back, grab the popcorn, and watch the beating unfold. 

 

can anyone point out where in the rules being decapitated means you have to die?

 

 

BINGO: We might look at a damage roll that slays a target (down to negative BOD equal to total BOD score) with a hit location in that region (be it head, torso or shoulder) and say "You have decapitated him - his body collapses as his head rolls down the hill", but all we have done is specify the special effect for the mechanic of "killed dead". Given we think of "decapitated" as "dead", perhaps we could require the character take some extra BOD, or defenses, or just "no hit locations; head only" with IPE, but that's just sugar-coating it.

 

Maybe we think it has in-game effects. 

 

Perhaps he needs "Striking appearance" triggered by a head hit (or some other mechanic) because the decapitated target continuing to function is terrifying.

 

Or maybe it's just "Distinctive Features" - that's certainly the kind of thing one notices, probably with an extreme reaction.

 

But if it has no in-game effect, it's just a special effect. Most characters don't have their heads fall off while they are still alive. So what?  Most characters don't have flourescent green hair, or a third eye in the middle of their forehead, or pointed ears. My character can have any or all of these things.  And it costs no points if it has no mechanical impact in-game.

 

If anything, having to cart your head around and point it in the right direction to see, rather than having it properly secured at the top of your torso, seems limiting rather than advantageous.

 

On 6/7/2022 at 11:33 PM, unclevlad said:

Duke:  you're probably right that by RAW, no special power is needed.  That said, I'd probably still define it because it's expected that a decapitation *should* kill.  The advantage of something like Hidden Life is it doesn't matter how much damage the body takes, or where.  The character cannot be killed by typical damage.  It requires something else.  By the same token, tho...destroy the Hidden Life, and the target is instantly obliterated.

 

Classic D&D example of Hidden Life would be the D&D lich's phylactery.

 

But this is a completely separate power.  Simply defining my character as having a removable head, having no head (Arnim Zola) or having multiple heads (a hydra) does not confer any special in-game benefit. It might be the special effect of an in-game benefit which is paid for as a separate mechanical ability.

 

Maybe that's "Regeneration, with resurrection adder, the special way to keep him dead is destroying the phylactery" with the Susceptibility of 3d6 BOD damage per segment if phylactery destroyed" - that does not mean he can take unlimited damage without being temporarily incapacitated, but the lich can have its body destroyed and be pretty useless until it gets a new one.

 

[Duke Bushido]

I am out of rep, but thanks, Hugh!  (I will hit the button after I have reloaded).

 

To Vlad et al:

 

I am not disagreeing with you that we think of a decapitation as a fatal blow.  I am saying that game system does not mandate that it is a fatal blow.

 

Steriaca:  yes; it is a neck wound.  I was pointing out that the hit location chart doesnt offer up "neck" as a target, meaning that by RAW, decapitation is both non-fatal and simultaneously impossible.  I went a bit further to add the suggestion of allowing "called shot to the neck" using the head-shot modifiers.  If you want to make decapitation fatal, up the CV modifiers a bit (as we all know it is fatal, we tend to guard the neck quite closely) and increase the BODY multiplier for a "neck shot".

 

Don't be surpriswd to see your player characters buying heavy steel collars. 

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

The catch is that he have no "decapitation" mechanic. A Hero character does not die because his head is lopped off - we have no mechanic to lop off his head. We describe his head being removed at the neck because the character is killed using other mechanics.

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

The catch is that he have no "decapitation" mechanic. A Hero character does not die because his head is lopped off - we have no mechanic to lop off his head. We describe his head being removed at the neck because the character is killed using other mechanics.

 

 

Precisely.

 

And I do not wish to hijack the thread-- I have in good faith answered the original question by pointing out that HERO does not mandate that Decapitation is an Insta-kill.

 

Steriaca further confirmed this by stating that you cannot decapitate someone until they are already dead--  I assume that this response is to the fact that killing someone in the game and _then_ decapitating them (or perhaps beating them until they are 1 Body from dead and _then_ swinging the headsman's axe) doesn't highlight the fact that HERO doesn't care how many flesh and bone pieces you lose because those pieces are not math. 

 

I assume this was the backdrop of his response, because if he meant it literally, I think we can easily prepare a lengthy list of French aristocrats who vehemently disagree with the idea that only the dead may be decapitated.   I would also point out that this only reinforces the idea that decapitation is a special effect, and one that he believes (and not at all incorrectly; let's be fair here) for final dead-is-dead death.

 

Decapitation _is_ just a special effecr in this game, and they are so because heads are not math; they are not even numbers, even if you have a number of heads.   Because they are niether math nor numbers, they cannot be or be affected by affected by mechanics, which relegates them squarely into the category of special effect.

 

 

Now, all that being said, I have absolutely no issue with decapitation being fatal, _but you need to create a mechanic for that_, because currently, HERO has managed to go through six editions without ever actually doing it. 

 

my own suggestion is to determine how a neck is to be targetted, and what the BODY multiplier should be.  (Frankly, I think it should be _huge_!), and it should somehow _force_ bleeding to occur, just because cutting halfway through a neck without any arterial bleeding is highly unlikely outside of a surgical suite.

 

Now, karate chopping someone's neck in twain is unlikely (though Johnny Cage manages to somehow remove a skull from a spine, right at the foramon, and all those muscles and tendons  holding the skull in place (and without removing the mandible, which isnt actually attached to the skill at all... Man's got skill; that's all I gotta say about that), so I _guess_ you can decapitate with crush damage...?

 

at this point, it seems like decapitation (the mechanic we are trying to build here) should be a maneuver specific to edged (and large) weapons, and for Johhny Cage, a martial maneuver.

 

so what is the cost of the martial element to radically increase the BODY multiplier?

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

can anyone point out where in the rules being decapitated means you have to die?

 

Yes, but its optional.  Its under the Impairing and Disabling wounds section.

 

Quote

The GM may also decide that an NPC who has taken an Impairing shot to the Head is dead, dying, or at the very least out of the fight. This is useful for getting unimportant ruffians out of the way.

 

What exactly an Impairing shot to the head involves is up to special effects and the GM's decision but certainly decapitation is an option.

 

[Sicarius]

On 6/7/2022 at 9:37 PM, steriaca said:

Nope. You can't actually be decapitated (which is a neck wound by the way) until you hit negative twice your body and take a neck wound as the final blow.

 

Of course, to remove a head without killing take a Transformation Attack instead. 

This is why I'm thinking a

Life Keeping Spell - transformation triggered by any death other than total burning.

It transforms you into living remains of ....whatever remains. So I suppose it also need to include resurrection of some sort. 

And your limited by the form. 

If the tongue is missing then no verbal.  Fingers, no gestures.

 

I know I could 'plot device' it and do whatever I want. That also works for D&D, BRP, CoC, and every other rpg.  Right now I'm blowing the horn and if the dog don't hunt then BRP might be a better choice.

 

[steriaca]

16 minutes ago, Sicarius said:

This is why I'm thinking a

Life Keeping Spell - transformation triggered by any death other than total burning.

It transforms you into living remains of ....whatever remains. So I suppose it also need to include resurrection of some sort. 

And your limited by the form. 

If the tongue is missing then no verbal.  Fingers, no gestures.

 

I know I could 'plot device' it and do whatever I want. That also works for D&D, BRP, CoC, and every other rpg.  Right now I'm blowing the horn and if the dog don't hunt then BRP might be a better choice.

 

Transformation doesn't work that way. All you can do is keep the corpse from rotting and maybe put all the loose parts together. 

 

To actually bring the dead back to life, you need the Healing power with "Reseriction" adder. Note: the Transformation power to preserve the body will give you time to get to a healer (cleric) with the nessisary Return To Life spell.

 

Of course, beyond the game not having that option, it doesn't mean you can't just G.M. Fiate such an effect. It is Your Game after all.

[Sicarius]

1 minute ago, steriaca said:

Transformation doesn't work that way. All you can do is keep the corpse from rotting and maybe put all the loose parts together. 

 

To actually bring the dead back to life, you need the Healing power with "Reseriction" adder. Note: the Transformation power to preserve the body will give you time to get to a healer (cleric) with the nessisary Return To Life spell.

 

Of course, beyond the game not having that option, it doesn't mean you can't just G.M. Fiate such an effect. It is Your Game after all.

You cant use transform to turn something into something else?  Like a single organism into a sort of hive organism or living head minus a body?  I can turn a man into a frog, werewolf or needle fish but not a head?

I was thinking the transform makes whatever is left of the old creature the 'new' creature and resurrection or healing of some sort brings it (back) to life.

I know I can hand wave all the tools I just bought but I'm testing the Ultimate Tool Kit.

How do you make a mummy?  Its basically a dead body that can get chopped into parts and still live.  So upon death a 'Make Mummy' spell is triggered and now SoulCatcher is a mummy, (or Lich).

So I guess with that said, can HERO System be used RAW to devise a Make Mummy or Make Lich spell from a corpse? 

If so, that might be a logical starting point.

Now that my mind is percolating perhaps I should check the Grimoire and see it one exists.🤨   I certainly do appreciate everyone's thought I this. 

Truth of the matter is I run ideas like this through HERO, GURPS and BRP to see how and if each tool kit can built the project WITHOUT resorting to a hand wave.

[steriaca]

12 minutes ago, Sicarius said:

You cant use transform to turn something into something else?  Like a single organism into a sort of hive organism or 

I over erased. Anyways, I misunderstood the question.  Yes you can turn someone into a living head via Transformation.  You can even leave a body behind if you wish.

 

You just can't transform a dead body to an alive body, because you can't use Transformation as a substitute for other powers (What I suggest is right out Healing with a Reserection option. There is also Summon undead which requires the body as an expendable Focus.)

 

You could also Transform a person into a living (or undead) head, but you must buy it with enough dice to add at least Total Life Support. A truly living head with some sort of magical connection to a still living body doesn't need the Total Life Support power...you just have to feed it and make sure it has a good night's sleep and enough oxygen. 

 

Yes, I know that is a contradiction. The "summon" method is if your creating a generic undead out of whatever monster list (HERO System Beastery or from Fantasy Hero). The Transformation method is for giving powers and such. Becoming undead can make for an odd superhero orgin.

[steriaca]

Talking about the headless... here is Count Broken from Tranzor Z.

[Sicarius]

It's pretty cool we can banter about this and explore options. Most systems don't have enough tools to even begin. I admit I am a technician and tinker in everything and for myself systems and tools are like playgrounds and toys. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Transformation doesn't work that way. All you can do is keep the corpse from rotting and maybe put all the loose parts together.

 

You can transform anything into anything else, dead to alive is definitely in the options.  Especially since the origin of Transform was "if you can kill someone with this many points, then why can't you change them in other ways?"

 

I mean you can do it with Healing but its either more expensive and tougher to do with Transformation (major transform to a body, either a bunch of transforms cumulative to the target, or one really big transform) so its not like you're cheating or breaking the rules to do so.