Systems and AP Caps

[HeroGM]

Without a big debate - What is your Magic system of choice and what do you normally cap the AP at overall for PCs buying spells?

[Ndreare]

I like 30 AP caps. But I follow the suggestion in 6E1 pg 52 and let you buy higher AP powers at double cost for AP over 30.

 

I like traditional spellcasting modifiers (gestures, incantations, rituals, side effects, and all that). Except I hate Requires Skill Rolls and Activation rolls. They slow games down.

 

I then have players specialize in domains and types of spells. 

 

We use casting styles representing things like blood magic, life magic, earth magic, ice magic or whatever else.

 

 

I never go with systems like in Fantasy Hero 6th edition where they discount spells.

 

 

 

[HeroGM]

Playing with a magic talent and some other ideas. Was curious of my cap of 60 was too high....

[Ndreare]

My thinking was based off the idea of 2d6 killing attack is 30 points. I expect armor to matter, so I did not want the damage and effects so high they ignore the best efforts of non-magic users. 

[Hugh Neilson]

A DC cap would allow the damage to be capped (keeping armor relevant) with higher AP spells providing non-damage benefits (e.g. no range modifier; AoE Accurate; targets ECV).  Depends on the effect you are looking for, though.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I take a different approach, I cap the power level of spells each character is able to access safely in each "class" or "school" of magic (fire, illusion, etc).  Purchasing these "mastery" levels is expensive and effectively makes the most powerful spells out of reach of most if not all characters, but theoretically possible, especially with xps.

 

Typically for at least a starting Heroic campaign, 30-40 active points is more than enough for any character to have at their disposal, that's an 8 DC attack at the top end, which with maneuvers and STR some warrior might pull off with a weapon.  But of course it depends on the campaign.

[HeroGM]

High Fantasy, Mystara / BECMI world converted over with some other ideas tossed in.  Just playing a few different things and curious what others did.

[Scott Ruggels]

I never capped damage or points. I was miserly about rewarding experience.  Spell advantages and limitations were cultural, and often mutually exclusive.

[IndianaJoe3]

Any magic system I use will be tied to the setting, so I don't have a favorite as such. I tend to default to standard heroic power levels, but lately I've developed a taste for lower-powered games. I've even created some 25-point characters as a design exercise.

[Old Man]

The best FH mechanic for spells was elemental controls, which (in my unassailable opinion) costed magic correctly while encouraging consistent limitations and special effects for a given magic school.  Nowadays we use multipowers, though you still get the swiss-army-knife problem even if you ban ultra slots.

 

Regardless of framework we required at least -2 in limitations on every spell, including RSR.  We found that this was the best way to make magic "feel" like magic, as opposed to medieval supers.

 

Never bothered with AP caps, just relied on RSR to discourage cataclysmic in-combat spells.  That said, it would have been easy to field a cataclysmic out-of-combat spell, but no one tried.

[Hugh Neilson]

On the topic of RSR (and slowing the game with extra rolls), a 14- roll is a 90% chance of success, and 15- is 95%.  What if we assumed that a 15- is enough to trivialize the roll out of play.

 

If you want to be an Apprentice, a Magic Skill of 16- is enough to reliably (15-) cast 10 AP spells.  That's 3 points for the skill (13- assuming 18+INT) and 6 for +3.  So if we simply charged 10 points for Magical Apprentice, which means you can case 10 AP spells reliably, we're good to go.  Maybe the wizard can also cast spells with higher AP, but now you must make the roll. Tack on big side effects so missing that roll has dire consequences best avoided.  Or maybe Apprentices cannot access higher AP spells and we keep it simple.  The trade off for always making the roll is that you can't access higher-power spells than you can reliably cast.

 

Add on 5 points of Perk, and you can reliably (15-) cast spells of up to 30 AP (5 is used for breakpoints, alternating +2 and +3 to the roll, so this is an 18-roll).  That's a Novice Wizard.

 

Another 5 points allows 60 AP (21- skill roll equivalent).  This is a Master Wizard.

 

5 points more and you are a Mage (80 AP; 23- equivalent), and another 5 makes you an Arch-Mage (110 AP; 26- equivalent).

 

We then build all spells with RSR at -1/2, using Mage Perks rather than Skill Rolls to govern who can cast them.

 

If you want cheaper magic, use the Side Effects (handwaving the ability to "take 15").

 

Now we can have 5 "levels" of spells, with steadily increasing Perk costs to access  them.

 

We could make it more granular, and make spells cheaper, if we use -1 Skill Roll per 5 AP.

 

Let's keep Apprentice at 10 points, but that's now a 17- roll (normally costs 11, but we're rounding).

 

Next, we have Novice Wizard +5 points, but his roll is 19-, so up to 20 AP.

 

We'll pop in "Wizard" - +5 points, 21- roll, so up to 30 AP (rounding the skill roll down this time as 30 AP is a nice round number).

 

Master Wizard - +5 points, 24- roll, up to 45 AP

 

Mage - +5 points, 27- skill (rounded up) so 60 AP

 

Master Mage - +5, skill roll 29-, so 70 AP

 

ArchMage - +5, skill roll 31-, so 80 AP

 

And so on...+5 points, 34-, 95 AP

+5 points, 35-, 105 AP

+5 points, 38-, 120 AP

 

ad infinitum.  Maybe at those top levels we start popping in spells with much higher AP Limitations that can only be cast as Rituals taking extra time (no limitation for some of the Extra Time because it is only used  to drop the required Skill Roll - higher levels of Mastery can cast faster).

 

More points will be required to cast higher AP spells, but the spells themselves have the -1 RSR limitation, so each spell is a bit cheaper.

 

Note that we bury the skill roll behind the curtain - the various levels of Magical Training are simply perks.

 

Season to taste - maybe different types of magic (which would have required different skills, like Fire Magic or Transmutation using basic RSR) require different perks, and have different spells available.

 

 

[HeroGM]

I was gli g through KillerShrike's stuff today. I agree the RsR should be used to learn the spell, casting is automatic

 

I'd like to see magic based on language as well. The long dead Nithian (Egyptian) magic is rarer because so few can translate the scrolls left behind.

[Opal]

I like doing FH magic in Schools, with DM-designed package deals to gain access to DM-designed, very thematic, spells.

[assault]

I dislike Schools of magic unless they have a reason for existence aside from blowing things up.

Generally, I have a set of basic combat and utility spells most spellcasters know. They are intentionally quick and easy to use, and are considered to be the lowest form of magic.

Not coincidentally, these are the spells Player Characters learn.

I go for about 40 Active Points.

I treat Limitations with the same seriousness that I treat them in superhero games, so spells with more than about -1/2 get messed with pretty seriously. Unfortunately, this is a nuisance for both me and the players.

[Scott Ruggels]

Here is some added detail from my old 3rd through 4th edition campaign:

 

Northern Magical Support, the Package would have been on top of one or two military packages.

Midlands Mages.

 

 

 

Magic skill roll, was just to kick the spell off. It was a magic talent, there were no subtractions from the power of the skill. a blown roll was a misfire. there were no side effects. The spell just did not go off.

 

Below is a segment about Magic as it was in the Jaggiri Culture. This is what I mean about Cultural flavor of magic.

 

 

 

 

 

Hope this helps illustrate what I meant.

 

[HeroGM]

Thank you Scott. I'm about to head to bed so will look in the morning.

 

And thank you all for keeping this civil. It's helped a lot.