Damage for Using All Active Points of a Power

[RexCelestis]

I've got a player who would like their character to take damage if he pushes himself to his limit. We were thinking of a limitation of something like, "takes 1d6 BODY if all active points in the power are used." Looking to the experts here, I thought I would ask if all y'all had any other ideas.

 

Thanks in advance.

[HeroGM]

Side Effect.

 

[dougmacd]

I'd personally do it with a Susceptibility (or Physical Complication). 

 

Putting a Limitation on the power gives me bad vibes, as it's really only limiting the last few points. If a 10d6 Blast is used at 9d6, there's no downside.  It's only the last 1d6 that's truly limited.

 

That having been said, if you know the player will be pushing the power regularly, then a limitation is fine; at that point the effect clearly is putting a downside on the use of the power as a whole.

 

 

Doug

9d6 Blast plus +1d6 Blast, Self Owie (-2)

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah sounds like a Side Effect to me, but a Susceptibility could do it as well.

 

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Putting a Limitation on the power gives me bad vibes, as it's really only limiting the last few points.

 

That simply reduces the value of the limitation.

[Grailknight]

I'd go with Susceptibility also. The amount of damage taken from Side Effect is excessive. 

[Steve]

You could just take those extra few dice and build them with the additional limitation. That’s probably the most accurate way to present it.

[Hugh Neilson]

5 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah sounds like a Side Effect to me, but a Susceptibility could do it as well.

 

 

That simply reduces the value of the limitation.

I'd go with the Susceptibility as well.  Even a -1/4 limitation would reduce the cost of a 10 DC attack from 50 points to 40 points.  A 9d6 Blast would cost 5 points more, and would not allow the extra d6 for taking some damage. 

 

As well, I've never liked Side Effects that do BOD.  With no defenses, the damage is excessive for the limitation applied.

[LoneWolf]

As Steve mentioned a partially limited power works well.   Buy the amount of attack he wants to use without taking damage without the side effect and take side effect on the remaining damage. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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With no defenses, the damage is excessive for the limitation applied.

 

Yeah I think most people are unaware that you get no defenses from side effects

[HeroGM]

Could go either way. As posted it seemed like a better limitation then a custom one. How they approach it and what curve they give us up to them. It may or may not be that last die.

[Scott Ruggels]

Man, I miss discussions like this.

[RexCelestis]

Thank you, everyone. I appreciate the input.

[LoneWolf]

You don’t get defenses vs susceptibilities either.  

 

Drop the side effect to minor but it always occurs when the power is used, which makes it a -1/2 limitation instead of -1/4.  Only apply it to the portion of the power that when used causes him to take damage.  Now, when he uses the power past the point where the side effect is on, he takes 1d6 killing damage with no defenses.  By doing it as a partially limited power works out better than putting a limitation on the whole power.  Personally, I would not accept what HeroGM suggested in a campaign I run because it is too easily abused.  I can see some players buying all their powers slightly higher than they want and using that limitation on it.  Bump that up to an extreme side effect and you have you get a -3/4 limitation on all your powers.
 

[HeroGM]

47 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

You don’t get defenses vs susceptibilities either.  

 

Drop the side effect to minor but it always occurs when the power is used, which makes it a -1/2 limitation instead of -1/4.  Only apply it to the portion of the power that when used causes him to take damage.  Now, when he uses the power past the point where the side effect is on, he takes 1d6 killing damage with no defenses.  By doing it as a partially limited power works out better than putting a limitation on the whole power.  Personally, I would not accept what HeroGM suggested in a campaign I run because it is too easily abused.  I can see some players buying all their powers slightly higher than they want and using that limitation on it.  Bump that up to an extreme side effect and you have you get a -3/4 limitation on all your powers.
 

Was I suggesting the screen cap for her game or was I illustrating what I was talking about? I merely said "side effects". No argument about how it might be done in anyone's campaign. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Drop the side effect to minor but it always occurs when the power is used

 

I wouldn't allow the "aways occurs" since it is contingent on using a certain level of the power.

[Hugh Neilson]

I think the front runners are a Susceptibility, or a Minor side effect limitation on only the portion of the power whose use will cause BOD damage.  Either approach seems reasonable.

 

I like discussions like this, as they make me consider the rules.  A Side Effect on a few DCs would be Minor, so 1d6 KA or 3d6 Normal damage - or, for an effect with less long-term damage, I suppose 15 AP of BOD Drain - that could be 1d6, Recovers per minute, which is actually 20 AP, or 1/2d6 Drain that recovers per 6 hours.  Actually, I like that last one.  Any of  the three would be a -1/2 limitation (Minor; Always Occurs).

 

As I said, considering the rules.  For the same -1/2 limitation, those last few dice could Cost 2x END.  So one extra END per DC.  That seems a lot less problematic than about 1 BOD (1/2 d6 will average 2, halved because BOD is defensive), even BOD which will recover in 6 hours. 

 

Moving past this base power, a 60 AP Attack Power with a Minor Side Effect every time the power is used (-1/2) will do 3d6 STUN and BOD, so an average of 10.5 STUN and 3 BOD every time the attack is used.  If, instead, the limitation were 2x END, that would be an extra 6 END per usage.  Run out of END?  Burn 3d6 STUN instead of 6 END.  The same STUN damage, but no BOD damage.  Does that seem equitable?  Based on this, it feels like Side Effects that do normal damage are too detrimental for the points saved. I think  "damage" from a Side Effect should be STUN only for the limitation values provided by RAW. Or, alternatively, they could be based on Drain instead of normal or killing damage.  A STUN drain does not do BOD, but it's only coming back at 5/turn. At 60 AP, 6d6 STUN drain seems quite impactful (as a Major Side Effect should be) without being the death sentence of taking an average of 12 BOD, no defenses, from a single use.

 

 

[HeroGM]

Me personally I would buy it as two-three tiers of a power. Say 10d6 total. 6d6 normal, with the next two as 2x End and then the last two as doing body DMG. The player should be made aware thenpoints are going into a "sink" that if they don't use it they're just wasting the points.

 

I keep going back and thinking about "Gotham" from the Batman New 52 era of books (and his sister Gotham Girl). Using their powers were slowly killing them/driving them crazy. The more they used the faster it killed them. He used his to near-Superman levels and died from them.

 

[unclevlad]

On 7/2/2022 at 12:28 PM, LoneWolf said:

You don’t get defenses vs susceptibilities either.  

 

Drop the side effect to minor but it always occurs when the power is used, which makes it a -1/2 limitation instead of -1/4.  Only apply it to the portion of the power that when used causes him to take damage.  Now, when he uses the power past the point where the side effect is on, he takes 1d6 killing damage with no defenses.  By doing it as a partially limited power works out better than putting a limitation on the whole power.  Personally, I would not accept what HeroGM suggested in a campaign I run because it is too easily abused.  I can see some players buying all their powers slightly higher than they want and using that limitation on it.  Bump that up to an extreme side effect and you have you get a -3/4 limitation on all your powers.
 

 

Technically, tho, by RAW a minor side effect is 1/4 of the active points in the power...OR 15 points, whichever is greater.  So just applying it to a couple dice is potentially overkill, even when it's the full -1/2.  Might be doable, tho...as 1d6 Drain to BODY and STUN.  They're both defensive powers, so the half effect rule applies.  I probably wouldn't allow Standard Effect here, as that's below-average damage, and you're getting 2 beneficial roundings.  It'd always translate to 1 BODY and 2 STUN drained.  That's likely tolerable, but should add up enough to be a deterrent from overusing it.

[Hugh Neilson]

18 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

Technically, tho, by RAW a minor side effect is 1/4 of the active points in the power...OR 15 points, whichever is greater.  So just applying it to a couple dice is potentially overkill, even when it's the full -1/2.  Might be doable, tho...as 1d6 Drain to BODY and STUN.  They're both defensive powers, so the half effect rule applies.  I probably wouldn't allow Standard Effect here, as that's below-average damage, and you're getting 2 beneficial roundings.  It'd always translate to 1 BODY and 2 STUN drained.  That's likely tolerable, but should add up enough to be a deterrent from overusing it.

 

As a Minor side effect, it should be a Minor deterrent. Absent some way to speed the recovery of BOD, losing 1 BOD per attack would deter most characters, even if it comes back in a day or so.  One easily overlooked drawback to BOD Drain vs Damage - assume you have been Drained 10 BOD, so you are now at 2, instead of your normal 12.  You suffer 5 BOD after defenses from an attack.  You are at -3 BOD - since you only have 2 BOD, I suggest you are dead, not just bleeding out to -12 BOD.

 

EDIT: Should have looked that up. The Drain does not impact point of death, only when the character would start bleeding out.

[unclevlad]

Fair, but this didn't buy back the recovery, so recovery is per turn, like any other Drain.  It'd take some pretty exceptional overuse to get you down that bad.  

 

6E2 107 disagrees with you.  "...when he reaches a negative BODY score equal to his starting positive BODY."  

'Starting' strikes me as the key word, but the door is open.

Aid to BODY...doesn't affect 'Starting', IMO.

BODY Drain...same.

The trap?  Growth, or other powers that give BODY.  Is this "starting BODY" or not?  For example, I like Normal Mass for Shrinking.  IMO it's a good justification for more defenses...1 level of Shrinking with Normal Mass means your density is 8, which is steel.  Conversely, tho, it's plausible to say you also get some BODY from this.  DI is similar.  So..what is "starting BODY"?  The simplest answer is, it's the BODY characteristic you paid for...end of sentence.  Note that with Growth or DI that are always on...it's recommended that you buy the effects...which with Growth, would include the extra BODY.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Growth, or other powers that give BODY.  Is this "starting BODY" or not?

 

I would argue not, since in 6th you don't use growth to build a permanently large character.  By its very nature and definition, its temporary, and hence not part of your starting Body score.  I agree, "starting Body" is the Body score you paid for with character points to build your character, not adjusted by anything later except XPS to buy more Body with.

[LoneWolf]

The section on adjustment powers specifically calls out that adjustment powers to body do not affect a Characters negative BODY for purpose of determining when he dies.  This makes it clear that adjustment powers (positive or negative) do not change the point where a character is considered dead, except for actually reducing a character's body.   The fact that this is specifically called out in the book implies that other powers that affect a character's body do modify the negative body for purpose of determining death. 

 

Outside of purchasing BODY as a power, growth is the only power besides an adjustment power that actually modifies BODY.  Growth also specifically calls out it should only be used for characters that can actually change size.  Characters who are permanently large are supposed to simply buy the appropriate characteristics. Since growth is not an adjustment power it is not subject to the rule about not affecting the characters negative BODY for purpose of determining when he dies.  

 

Starting body for purpose of determining death is your BODY stat excluding any adjustment powers.   It ignores any damage you have taken.