Druid ability to pass thru plant-based barriers and entangles?

[unclevlad]

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

What about that prevents teleport from working?

 

You can't see an arrival point that's safe.

[Duke Bushido]

Specific examples:

 

A wicked and twisted magus knows his subjects look daily for a chance to revolt.  He also knows that the weakest part of his keep's defenses is the cliff that drops a thousand feet to the riverbank below-  as the centuries rolled by, the eiver slowly changed course and no longer races along the cliff, but is now a few hundred feet away from the base od the cliff.  

 

To prevent anyon from trying his hand at scaling the cliff to gain access to the keep, he has seeded the entire bank with tanglesnare briars, a notoriously difficult vine that grows very tightly xoiled and twisted and filled with both long needle-like thorns and stout (but sharp!) claw-like hooking broads, such that anyone attempting to pass through will literally becone ensnared in the thick brush- at least until the tanglesnare grows high and dense enough to consume him.

 

Tanglenare briars are known to create thickets up to 20 feet high if they are well-enough fed, and are dense enough that it is impossible to see more than a few feet into an established thicket.

 

 

Standing in the shallow waters of the river's edge, one can clearly see the thicket before them, and a cliff rising beyond that.

 

How far beyond that?  Given the lines of sight available, the cliff could be a hundred feet away; it could be a hundred yards away; it could be a quarter mile away; who knows?

 

You cannot see the far side of the thicket, so how far do you teleport?  Safe blind teleport won't help, since there is room for you to be anywhere in the thicket without harm.  It is attempting to move through the thicket that causes ensnarement and damage.  Safe blind teleport will not avoid the thicket.

 

If you do not have  SBT, you can always take a chance on merging with the cliff.....

 

So how far do you teleport?

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

You can't see an arrival point that's safe.

 

Ah ok.  But that's true of even a 1mm thick opaque barrier; I would assume that the teleport build would have some kind of manner of spotting a safe spot to land in its range as part of the build (and still be cheaper than desolidification).

 

I can see good reasons for either build, or even something other we haven't considered like stretching.  They all have advantages and drawbacks, as is true with all hero builds.  I just favor teleport because its cheaper and accomplishes the goals without any additional side effects like "cannot manipulate the world while in effect".  I guess you could stitch on an affects solid on STR to try to overcome that.

[unclevlad]

42 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Ah ok.  But that's true of even a 1mm thick opaque barrier; I would assume that the teleport build would have some kind of manner of spotting a safe spot to land in its range as part of the build (and still be cheaper than desolidification).

 

I can see good reasons for either build, or even something other we haven't considered like stretching.  They all have advantages and drawbacks, as is true with all hero builds.  I just favor teleport because its cheaper and accomplishes the goals without any additional side effects like "cannot manipulate the world while in effect".  I guess you could stitch on an affects solid on STR to try to overcome that.

 

Ah, but now you're requiring a secondary power to make the teleport work.  Safe Blind Teleport would do it, sure, and it's cheap, but now you can't control your arrival point, and/or stitching more onto it...which is your complaint with Desolid.  And as Duke says, how much will you actually need?  

 

Alternate Desolid from APG would be the simplest basis, as standard Desolid is massive overkill.  But I've got no issue that "provides no defense" simply erases the need for "affects physical world."  The two are completely interconnected, in my book...the only reason for Affects Physical World is because the defensive aspect of Desolid is too close to perfect.  Alternate Desolid, this never enters the picture.  You would have to define a new limitation, as you don't want the PD/ED it provides, and IIRC it has a +KB aspect you also don't want.  Fine...they pretty much cancel each other in terms of points, so both go POOF! for +0.

 

I'll grant that Tunneling feels right, but the problem here is that the Hero implementation explicitly denies "just passing through without disturbing anything."  If you're willing to toss that out the window, then Tunneling works nicely.  And we've pretty solidly established that nothing fits without significant tailoring.  Given that:  teleport has the worst connection to the style of effect, IMO, so it's the weakest basis.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

which is your complaint with Desolid

 

I don't recall complaining about it, just noting that like teleport, you need to buy another power to make it work, but in addition, it is also much more expensive.  I'm not sure why this is even a discussion anyway.  People can do things several ways, I just was suggesting one and then you guys decided it was all wrong LOL

[dmjalund]

if you made the obstruction with your own spells, (as barrier/entangle) you could always have made them with Personal Immunity

[Ninja-Bear]

On 10/18/2022 at 11:38 PM, Grailknight said:

 

Teleport would let you move but what if you need to do something within the area. Your actions would still be hindered because you never left the Entangle. If you're only doing movement, then Tunneling with fills in hole and effect would be a better choice than Teleport.

 

To put it more in the terms of it's source. "You are fighting a druid in a 1 acre bamboo thicket. Your swings are hindered and your movement is blocked but the druid is fighting in an empty room with a smooth floor. You can teleport to another part of the thicket but you're still hindered while he can walk directly to you and even charge you at a sprint"

Fair point but the OP was to pass through the Entangle not fight  in the area unhindered. And the the person with Desolid still has to have affect Real World.

 

@unclevlad, I didn’t think about tunneling. It should have fill in hole if its just for the user only.  Did the OP suggest that the spell should only the user to pass without evidence? 

[Ninja-Bear]

On 10/19/2022 at 1:10 AM, unclevlad said:

I think some of the issue here is, we're not on the same page.

 

OP said "allow a druid to pass thru plant-based barriers and entangles."  I think some are reading this as the specific powers, Barrier and Entangle...and their answer is directly connected to those powers.  Some of us are reading it as D&D's Pass Without Trace, which includes ignoring a Wall of Thorns, a spell that, IIRC, has aspects of both Barrier and Entangle.  

 

Want a real-world example of why Teleport doesn't work?  A classic hedge maze.  Two pics of one in Spain, from Fodor's.  The maze is said there to be one of the largest in Europe.

 

 

This one shows the height.

 

 

Teleport...not useful or safe.  Desolid...makes it trivial.

Size?  It's given as 5625 square meters, which'd be a square 75 meters, or about 250 feet, on a side, or a touch under 1.4 acres.

Where in the OP’s posts does it suggest that the Entangle is an Area Effect?  Now if that’s what he was thinking then that does have to taken into account and can change what the ideal build should be. 

[LoneWolf]

This like anything can be written up several ways.  The real question is what the player wants this ability to do.  Are you looking for something that is mainly used in combat to escape entangles and get through barriers?  Or are you looking for something that has uses out of combat to handle a variety of situations?  

 

If you are looking for the former, then teleport is a good way to build this power.  It is a lot cheaper and simpler.  You can easily escape or bypass the barrier, and you also only pay END for 1 thing.  For 15 pts you can get 12” Teleport with safe blind teleport.  With this ability you can move out of, or through the obstacle to the nearest area that is not full of plants.  You always end up outside of the obstacle.  If you can see a safe spot, you can simple move there.  If you cannot see a safe spot you teleport to the closest safe spot to where you were trying to go.  

 

If you are looking for the latter desolidification is the better approach.  The big advantage this ability has is the ability to completely ignore the obstacle.  You don’t have to actually move out of the obstacle, but you can ignore most of the hindrances of the obstacle.  The only affect the obstacle will have on your is that you may not be able to see through it.   You can move out of the obstacle if you want, but you can also remain within it and still not be hindered by it.  You have more precise control over your movement and if the area of the obstacle is larger than your movement it just means it takes longer to get through it.  The downside of this approach is it is more expensive, and you have to pay END for it and moving.  It also makes attacking after moving through the obstacle more complicated. 

 

Personally, I would go with the desolidificaiton approach because it is more flexible.  
 

[Ninja-Bear]

On 10/19/2022 at 6:13 PM, Duke Bushido said:

Specific examples:

 

A wicked and twisted magus knows his subjects look daily for a chance to revolt.  He also knows that the weakest part of his keep's defenses is the cliff that drops a thousand feet to the riverbank below-  as the centuries rolled by, the eiver slowly changed course and no longer races along the cliff, but is now a few hundred feet away from the base od the cliff.  

 

To prevent anyon from trying his hand at scaling the cliff to gain access to the keep, he has seeded the entire bank with tanglesnare briars, a notoriously difficult vine that grows very tightly xoiled and twisted and filled with both long needle-like thorns and stout (but sharp!) claw-like hooking broads, such that anyone attempting to pass through will literally becone ensnared in the thick brush- at least until the tanglesnare grows high and dense enough to consume him.

 

Tanglenare briars are known to create thickets up to 20 feet high if they are well-enough fed, and are dense enough that it is impossible to see more than a few feet into an established thicket.

 

 

Standing in the shallow waters of the river's edge, one can clearly see the thicket before them, and a cliff rising beyond that.

 

How far beyond that?  Given the lines of sight available, the cliff could be a hundred feet away; it could be a hundred yards away; it could be a quarter mile away; who knows?

 

You cannot see the far side of the thicket, so how far do you teleport?  Safe blind teleport won't help, since there is room for you to be anywhere in the thicket without harm.  It is attempting to move through the thicket that causes ensnarement and damage.  Safe blind teleport will not avoid the thicket.

 

If you do not have  SBT, you can always take a chance on merging with the cliff.....

 

So how far do you teleport?

 

 

Teleport with Mega Range.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I have always been a bit uncertain about using tunneling for this kind of thing because of how uncertainly it is defined.  When you tunnel through something do you disrupt it, so that even if you fill in the hole it clearly looks like someone has dug through this area?  Or can you restore it to pristine, unchanged state with "filling in the hole"?  

 

In other words, does that area you dug through actually still function as a barrier/entangle or is it ruined in that section and someone could take a shovel and get through easily now?  Is it returned to its original state, so it doesn't look like someone has dug through it?

[Duke Bushido]

6 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Teleport with Mega Range.

 

How much?

 

You have to pick a hex in which to land or have a memorized location.  There is no location at the base of the cliff that isny full of the thicket, no way to tell that, and no way to gauge the distance to the nase of the cliff.

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

 

 

 

 

 

12 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

When you tunnel through something do you disrupt it, so that even if you fill in the hole it clearly looks like someone has dug through this area?  Or can you restore it to pristine, unchanged state with "filling in the hole"?  

 

12 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

In other words, does that area you dug through actually still function as a barrier/entangle or is it ruined in that section and someone could take a shovel and get through easily now?  Is it returned to its original state, so it doesn't look like someone has dug through it?

 

 

Was it the Harbinger of cheese?  I should be asleep, so I am not thinking clearly, but there exists at least one official example of Tunnelling representing picking a lock on a door and moving into the next room, and using the 'dont leave a hole' option to represent locking the door behind them after passing through it.

 

With that, I would suppose the official answer would lean toward 'pristine,'  but at the same time, I swear I can absolutely taste having read ' even with the no hole option, passer'a by will ge able to tell the earth has been disturbed; the earth is not pristine."

 

And if both od those memories are legitimate, then I personally would say "Dealer's choice."

 

 

[LoneWolf]

Like anything in the Hero system, it depends on the special effect. 

 

If in doubt you could always use the invisible advantage.    
 

[IndianaJoe3]

11 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

With that, I would suppose the official answer would lean toward 'pristine,'  but at the same time, I swear I can absolutely taste having read ' even with the no hole option, passer'a by will ge able to tell the earth has been disturbed; the earth is not pristine."

 

RAW in 6e says that it's obvious that Tunneling has been used, and that Invisible Power Effects are required to hide that.

[Ninja-Bear]

1 minute ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

RAW in 6e says that it's obvious that Tunneling has been used, and that Invisible Power Effects are required to hide that.

Thanks, I knew that Tunneling would be obvious but wasn’t sure (but thought so) that Invisibile Effect would mask it.

 

11 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

How much?

 

You have to pick a hex in which to land or have a memorized location.  There is no location at the base of the cliff that isny full of the thicket, no way to tell that, and no way to gauge the distance to the nase of the cliff.

 

 

Well I just have to buy Absolute Range Sense 😁 and maybe No Range Penalty for good measure.  As you know, Hero System by default doesn’t have absolutes so eventually something may not work.

Btw i noticed that no one mentioned that Desolid costs END. Now I would think typically it wouldn’t affect the character especially for a small Entangle but as characters can be built differently you could possibly run out of END of Desolid before you escape the Entangle.

[Grailknight]

Reduced END is a thing. You aren't listing all the Modifiers on your Teleport each time so don't hold others to a higher standard.

[unclevlad]

OK, yeah, Tunneling would work for the "pass through overgrown areas" aspect...but it would likely be expensive.  You need Fill In, and IPE.  FIll In is +10.  How much of a movement rate do you want?  Tunneling is its own movement rate.  Vegetative barriers aren't that likely to have high PD, but wood suggests, what, 3-4?  So...

 

Tunneling 

--base 3 points
--+5 meters (gets you to 6 meters, half normal rate): 5

--+3 PD:  6

--Fill in:  +10

 

24 so far.  IPE...Tunneling is Obvious.  Do we want Inobvious, or Invisible?  I think we can just say Sight is the only sense we need to address.  If Invis, then it's +1/2, and we're at 36.

 

So that ain't cheap any more.  Wanna move at full speed?  Raising to 12m would add 6 more, so now we're at 30 before IPE.

 

Oh, and here's the kicker.  I remember we went over this before, but per RAW, 6E1 310, Tunneling cannot be used to escape an Entangle.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

RAW in 6e says that it's obvious that Tunneling has been used, and that Invisible Power Effects are required to hide that.

 

I was actually wondering if that was not the case, its what I was leaning toward.

[Ninja-Bear]

37 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

Reduced END is a thing. You aren't listing all the Modifiers on your Teleport each time so don't hold others to a higher standard.

My point was people are pointing potential problems with other builds. I merely am pointing out that Desolid could have a potential problem too.  

[Ninja-Bear]

And it won’t prove a must build this way build but I believe FH 4th has a pass through woods built as T-port. When I get a chance, I’ll check.  (And I could be wrong.)

[Christopher R Taylor]

Tunneling with the proper modifiers would work well and even allow others to go through

[Ninja-Bear]

2 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

And it won’t prove a must build this way build but I believe FH 4th has a pass through woods built as T-port. When I get a chance, I’ll check.  (And I could be wrong.)

Never mind. I was wrong on that one. Failed INT Roll.

 

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Oh, and here's the kicker.  I remember we went over this before, but per RAW, 6E1 310, Tunneling cannot be used to escape an Entangle.

Valid point. Just wondering though if one wanted to create a custom Advantage as to allow it, I wonder what it should cost? 

[unclevlad]

Please.  We HAD that discussion, not all that long ago.  Let's not repeat it.

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

OK, yeah, Tunneling would work for the "pass through overgrown areas" aspect...but it would likely be expensive.  You need Fill In, and IPE.  FIll In is +10.  How much of a movement rate do you want?  Tunneling is its own movement rate.  

 

 

Same with old school / alternative Desolid, actually.  The only difference between the two was that tunneling went against DEF and desolid went against BODY.

 

Well that, and desilid would have to take a custom modifier to leave a hole.