Druid ability to pass thru plant-based barriers and entangles?

[Duke Bushido]

5 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Thanks, I knew that Tunneling would be obvious but wasn’t sure (but thought so) that Invisibile Effect would mask it.

 

Well I just have to buy Absolute Range Sense 😁 and maybe No Range Penalty for good measure.  

 

 

Serious question:  does absolute range sense give you the range to a hex that you cannot see?

 

If it doesn't, then you will need Lightning Calculator and KS: Geometry, and possibly KS:geology.

 

Thus, you could determine the range to a point halfway up the cliff (which is visible from your vantage point), know about what the grade of a cliff in this region (KS:geography?) Is likely to be made of, what sort of slope it is likely to have, the likely grade of the earth between you and the base of the cliff, the slope of the rubble that is likely to be at the bottom of the cliff, then calculate the likely point of th3 base of the cliff based on your other knowledgeable, range sense, etc.

 

And if there is no open hex, does safe blind teleport allow you to appear inside the entangle if so doing inflicts thorn damage, poison, etc, or does it bounce you back / prevent teleport, of does it move you several miles up or down the river to a safe spot?

 

I ask because I read 6e _once_, and decided that I am not going to use it, and therefore have never re-read it.

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

As you know, Hero System by default doesn’t have absolutes

 

 

Except for range sense and time sense and eidedict memory.

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Btw i noticed that no one mentioned that Desolid costs END.

Zero END, and if you are using the old school version, the but-in is less than 40 pts, making the initial END cost even less, if you are willing to go slowly (but safely).

 

 

 

[steriaca]

Teleportation can be used to go through Entangles, unless the Entangle or Barrier has "Cannot Be Teleport Through" (I don't remember how much this cost). If the Entangle or Barrier has Affects Desolification it can block and work against phasing people also.

 

I can see Teleportation with "Usable As Tunneling" to simulate such a ability.  Othoe I kinda like a permanent Desolification, Always On, Reduced Endurance (0 END Cost), Invisible Power Effects (two senses, since Detect Magic should still work), Only Against Living Plant Matter. It also works against wooden clubs and stakes and wooden spears without thoes pesky metal points on them.

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Serious question:  does absolute range sense give you the range to a hex that you cannot see?

 

If it doesn't, then you will need Lightning Calculator and KS: Geometry, and possibly KS:geology.

 

Thus, you could determine the range to a point halfway up the cliff (which is visible from your vantage point), know about what the grade of a cliff in this region (KS:geography?) Is likely to be made of, what sort of slope it is likely to have, the likely grade of the earth between you and the base of the cliff, the slope of the rubble that is likely to be at the bottom of the cliff, then calculate the likely point of th3 base of the cliff based on your other knowledgeable, range sense, etc.

 

And if there is no open hex, does safe blind teleport allow you to appear inside the entangle if so doing inflicts thorn damage, poison, etc, or does it bounce you back / prevent teleport, of does it move you several miles up or down the river to a safe spot?

 

I ask because I read 6e _once_, and decided that I am not going to use it, and therefore have never re-read it.

 

 

 

 

 

Except for range sense and time sense and eidedict memory.

 

 

 

 

Zero END, and if you are using the old school version, the but-in is less than 40 pts, making the initial END cost even less, if you are willing to go slowly (but safely).

 

 

 

Good question. I’m hazy on those rules. Again, I could be wrong.  As you know though if we wanted to we could make it work-with a few other powers perhaps. This is Hero after all. 😏

[steriaca]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Good question. I’m hazy on those rules. Again, I could be wrong.  As you know though if we wanted to we could make it work-with a few other powers perhaps. This is Hero after all. 😏

Sounds more like Sense: Range as a mental sense, with a N-Ray advantage so walls and such won't block it. Prehaps range and Megarange.

[Ninja-Bear]

12 hours ago, steriaca said:

Sounds more like Sense: Range as a mental sense, with a N-Ray advantage so walls and such won't block it. Prehaps range and Megarange.

We would need Indirect on a Sense is what I was thinking.

[Christopher R Taylor]

"Penetrative" is the way you buy senses that pass through substances* and see through them.  Absolute Range Sense is bought in the rules as Detect Range To Objects (sense); just add penetrating or partly penetrating to get it to work through barriers.

 

*In 6th edition

[Hugh Neilson]

At some point, probably a page or two back, I like to think I'd be considering a reasonable cost for this abiity, and a reasonable build (likely Desolid, still affected by attacks) with some possible handwaving to make the mechanics match the power as envisioned (definitely including no need for Affects Solid World).

[Duke Bushido]

On 10/23/2022 at 9:22 AM, Ninja-Bear said:

We would need Indirect on a Sense is what I was thinking.

 

 

Ooh!

 

I _like_ that idea, at least on first blush, but does that step on the toes of clairsentience?  I mean, at its most basic, the ability to sense without a direct line of...  sight?.... is all Clairsentience offers, really-  well, and some range, I suppose.

 

Which makes me wonder if its base price is equal to buying "Indirect" and "increased range" for a sense or sense group, and if not, why are there no complaints about that?!   

 

and that leads to me wondering if telescopic equals out to an equal amount of increased range.... (Given that it increases by multiples of 10, I am willing to bet it doesn't- which makes me wonder if it equals Megascale for a sense or sense group.....  Ugh!  How do those folks who worry about 'perfect points balance' get to sleep at night?!    )

 

 

 

On 10/23/2022 at 11:17 AM, Christopher R Taylor said:

"Penetrative" is the way you buy senses that pass through substances* and see through them.  Absolute Range Sense is bought in the rules as Detect Range To Objects (sense); just add penetrating or partly penetrating to get it to work through barriers.

 

*In 6th edition

 

 

And I like this- again, right up until I wonder if it steps on N-Ray's toes, and the cyxle starts all over...

 

 

Agreed: not the thread to discuss this, but it is starting to bug me a bit....

 

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

@Duke Bushido, if I recall, we had a thread about clairsentience and technically you can’t use it for targeting purposes.  Sometimes I think Hero paints itself into a corner. (I’m sure there is a reason for it.)

[Christopher R Taylor]

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And I like this- again, right up until I wonder if it steps on N-Ray's toes, and the cyxle starts all over

 

Senses are a little subset of their own rules and systems that don't use the rest of the game.  Maybe that's a mistake, but it seems to work pretty well.  I think the main reason is that a lot of senses are really cheap, so modifiers aren't very effective or reasonable.

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

@Duke Bushido, if I recall, we had a thread about clairsentience and technically you can’t use it for targeting purposes.  Sometimes I think Hero paints itself into a corner. (I’m sure there is a reason for it.)

 

Targeting has to be explicitly applied as a Sense Modifier...and it's +10 points for a single sense, or +20 for a sense group.  So targeting Clairsentience starts at 30 points before *anything* else, which for, say, Megascale, is getting rather expensive.  

 

N-Ray does not exist in 6E.  It was dropped.  5E has it as part of the Unusual Sense group, but that group is a total mess of standalone exceptions...a terrible approach to ruie-building.  When the sense groups were normalized and made coherent in 6E, either

a)  everything was folded into its 'natural' sense group (UV, IR, night vision into sight, ultrasonic into hearing), or

b)  as an Unusual Sense, you have to *buy* Ranged, Sense, etc.  The Unusual group comes with nothing built in...but it does mean the sense is basically immune to flash.

 

This also makes sense, as Penetrative can be used for hearing as well.  Penetrative also got split into the strong version, and a more basic, Partial Penetrative...so you could see through, say, the walls of a normal house, but not necessarily the reinforced concrete of a high-rise.  I like Partial Penetration for a "health sense"...you can see exactly where the problems are.  

 

Clairsentience gets EXTREMELY expensive very, very quickly.  For a high-end teleporter one time, I went with Penetrative and boatloads of Telescopic on normal sight...DIRT cheap, and it's a targeting sense.  +10 to the Range Mod gives 250m with no range mod;  +20 gives x1000.  So, +30 gives 250 km with no range mods at all.  On just normal sight...it's only 16 points.  But as a targeting sense, it's usable with teleportation, with no issues.  No concern with range mods, or knowing the location.  Not limited to places you've been.  Little concern with safe arrival points, or teleporting into a situation you'll regret.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Clairsentience gets EXTREMELY expensive very, very quickly.

 

I agree, I think its a little overpriced for what you get.  Many creative builds require or use clairsentience as part of a package and it ends up being super spendy.  My base level for comparison is energy blast: is this power as valuable and useful as the equivalent dice in blast?  It not perfect (non combat value vs combat, etc), but its a useful device to guesstimate cost balance.  And Clairsentience to get any kind of source material use (how is this used in the comics/books/movies?) is not great.  I think the main reason it doesn't get talked about much is that clairsentience really just isn't used much, even in fantasy.

[unclevlad]

Because clairsentience can be too much of a puzzle-breaker.  The defense is exotic...darkness to clairsentience?  And it likely has to be AoE, and taken to 0 END somehow.  Even then, that's far more of a fantasy power than a superpower.  It's a STOP sign power with good reason.  I hear ya;  it's a power I'd like to use more, but wow....

 

One caveat:  many, if not most, exotic powers in supers material, would be insanely expensive.  It's just the difference with regard to control of the power.  The writer's version always has a -4 Limitation:  only when I want it to be used.

[Ninja-Bear]

Well, it may be a day or too till I get to it but I was thinking the the T-porter only really needs Detect: Safe Spot with appropriate advantages.

[dmjalund]

does making the travel through the plants instance a valid part of the special effect?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Because clairsentience can be too much of a puzzle-breaker. 

 

Yeah, I get that but it seems like a better way would be to build into Clairsentience a way for GMs to block or avoid it (like the weird "can't heal sooner than x time period" thing in healing) than to just make it really expensive.  Because making it expensive doesn't make it stop being a puzzle-breaker, it just makes it have limited range. 

 

You know what else is a big puzzle-breaker?  Mind Scan.  Where is the bad guy?  *rolls a 3*  But GMs have learned to work around that and make it function in a campaign because of the way the power is built -- it has inherent limitations that make it harder to just ignore the storyline.

 

For example, you could say that, like N-ray or Penetrative senses, Clairsentience needs to define a way that it can be blocked, instead of having to buy a special power to do so.  Then the GM has a reasonable excuse for the power to just not work in a situation.

[Grailknight]

You don't need a "Special" Power to block Clairsentience. Darkness over the area being scanned works perfectly well if it covers the senses possessed. Invisibility also is 100% effective for hiding an individual if not an area. These powers may be rare in the campaign, but don't need any special modifiers to work.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 

You don't need a "Special" Power to block Clairsentience. Darkness over the area being scanned works perfectly well if it covers the senses possessed.

 

 

I didn't mean "special" as in an unusual or boutique kind of power, I meant it as in "if the restriction was built into Clairsentience, then you would not require any power bought especially to block it".  Like how N-Ray/Penetrative senses can be blocked by darkness/images/invisibility etc but need not be, because the power has a rule built into it that defines something that blocks it without needing to buy a power.

[unclevlad]

3 hours ago, Grailknight said:

You don't need a "Special" Power to block Clairsentience. Darkness over the area being scanned works perfectly well if it covers the senses possessed. Invisibility also is 100% effective for hiding an individual if not an area. These powers may be rare in the campaign, but don't need any special modifiers to work.

 

However, you have to build that Darkness in bizarre ways.

A classic fantasy use of scry-blocking...a strategy meeting in a command tent on the eve of battle.  YES, the enemy wants to know, YES, if they have scrying they'll use it.  Maybe it takes multiple spells...one to locate the command tent, another then to spy on the meeting...but it's obviously hugely useful.  

 

So, the meeting will want to block Clairsent...but if they're required to use Darkness, it can't be to sight and hearing without strange mods...or the meeting can't take place.  Personal Immunity that's also UBO?  YUCKKK!!!!!  Not my style at all.  I'd buy "Clairsentience only"...but as an ADVANTAGE, because it would mean those in the meeting room are unaffected, and the meeting proceeds normally.  

Darkness is also pretty darn expensive in its own right.  Darkness to Sight Group + Normal Hearing, 8m radius (large meeting tent)...that's 43 points already.

 

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I didn't mean "special" as in an unusual or boutique kind of power, I meant it as in "if the restriction was built into Clairsentience, then you would not require any power bought especially to block it".  Like how N-Ray/Penetrative senses can be blocked by darkness/images/invisibility etc but need not be, because the power has a rule built into it that defines something that blocks it without needing to buy a power.

 

No, actually, it would make things worse.  If each scrying spell has its own way it can be blocked, then which one do you pick to block it?  Magical barriers may be what blocks your Penetrative...but not Duke's, which is Faraday-cage construction.  So which one(s) do I plan for in my construction?  CAN I even build a "magical barrier" without paying significant points?  

 

The restriction on Penetrative is written because the focus is on the player using it...the GM never has to pay for the blocking effect, it's a plot device.  For PCs looking at blocking scrying effects...has anyone who's run a game, where the PCs have a base, ever made them pay for it?  Have the PCs ever worried about it?  My gut feeling is...largely, no.  

 

EDIT:  Barrier might work better.  You can define a 0 PD, 0 ED Barrier that is opaque to normal hearing and normal sight;  that's 10 points.  The problem is a barrier is bought by length...you can shape it, but if you want an 8m x 8m room, you have to buy 32m of length...all 4 sides.  With 3m height, that's 46 points, and it costs END too.  

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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No, actually, it would make things worse.  If each scrying spell has its own way it can be blocked, then which one do you pick to block it?  Magical barriers may be what blocks your Penetrative...but not Duke's, which is Faraday-cage construction.  So which one(s) do I plan for in my construction?  CAN I even build a "magical barrier" without paying significant points?  

 

Nothing about having a condition which automatically stops  Clairsentience would negate the ability to buy a darkness vs clairsentience.  You can still do the same ways as before, it just means that Clairsentience automatically has a way to stop each iteration (more than 3cm of wood, lead lining, etc) in addition to people being able to build constructs that also stop it.  That way the primary argument against making it less expensive necessarily is reduced because its less of a "puzzle breaker" power.  Just like N-Ray/Penetrative vision is restricted from being such.

 

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The restriction on Penetrative is written because the focus is on the player using it...the GM never has to pay for the blocking effect, it's a plot device. 

 

Correct, the same way this would work for Clairsentience.

[unclevlad]

From a defensive standpoint, if Darkness vs. Clairvoyance is an accepted and universal stopper, then why would you care that individual implementations have special blockers?  It's pointless.  Do the block you KNOW is gonna work.

 

What you're suggesting may work when it's a straightforward, non-power-based means...like my Faraday cage.  Copper mesh embedded in the walls, floor, and ceiling, properly installed, can do that, and it's a known, existing security measure now.  (Rooms for handling Top Secret and higher documents are frequently set up this way.)  But Clairsentience is closer to Telepathy than sight;  it's a classic psionic power.  Simple materials generally shouldn't block it;  that just doesn't match the way clairsentience is used, as was noted.  That's not something that should be ignored;  when certain properties are overwhelmingly common for a particular power type, respect them.  THE exemplar for N-Ray, and thus Penetrative, is blocked by lead...respecting the source. 

Penetrative really should be at least a Caution-level modifier.  

 

I think the bigger issue with Clairvoyance is simply that the adder costs are a mess...or, if you prefer, the baseline power doesn't include enough.  How about baseline Mobile?  How about cheaper Telescopic?  Some of it is structural...MegaScale is a significant advantage in terms of cost, and Clairvoyance is so *heavily* dependent on its adders that trying to use it is HORRIBLY expensive...especially given that the adders don't improve the base range.  It's the "one size fits all" approach to 6E that bites us.  And you're not gonna fix that by tossing in a nearly-meaningless "can't be used through" restriction that's a pure plot device;  it won't save enough.  Plus, it'd lead to a separate problem:  it would drop the power's base range.  Clairsent has Standard Range...10m per point, applying ONLY to the base power.  Not adders, not advantages.  (This is a separate issue.  SOME things, like extra senses, appear to apply to the base and therefore increase the base range.  Mobile and Multiple Perception Point are listed as adders;  they don't.  The Sense Modifiers...do they apply or not?  BIG hassle.  In HD, NONE of them do, because of structural limitations in the code.  Doesn't help that RAW isn't clear, either.)

 

Oh...here's a factor.  Penetrative gives you *a* sense group.  That's typically limited value.  It's *typically* for Sight.  How often does someone buy Penetrative Hearing?  The baseline, then, for intrusive sight and hearing ain't cheap.  And Penetrative Sight...yeah, fine, we all get that.  Penetrative Hearing?  Ehhhhh....  Ultrasonic, sure.  Good amount of Telescopic, OK.  Penetrative....feels odd, to say the least.  To be sure, this is potentially stylistic.

[Duke Bushido]

OP:

 

I am so very, _very_ sorry for the derail....

 

Granted: there's a lot of great ideas being floated--  that Barrier vs Clairsentience was brilliant, and not the only great idea.

 

Still, I am really sorry for the derail....

 

 

[unclevlad]

We do that, don't we?   But I think we gave OP plenty of options and supporting rationale first.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I do agree that the adders are the deal breaker, but if you make them too cheap, then its too easy to bypass the GM's clever schemes, so we get back to "how to make clairsentience cheaper without breaking it."

[Grailknight]

It's a general Hero problem. Non-combat effects(in timescale) are either overpriced like Clairsentience or undervalued like DoT. If it's not something that needs to take place in the Segment/Turn timeframe, pricing is all over the place.