Druid ability to pass thru plant-based barriers and entangles?

[Utensil]

Wanting opinion good/bad if the following is an acceptable means to allow a druid to pass thru plant-based barriers and entangles? 

 

Suppress Entangle BODY & rPD 4d6, Area of Effect: Damage Shield (1m Surface; +1/4), Expanded Effect (x2 Characteristics or Powers simultaneously) (+1/2) (70 Active Points); Limited Power Only Affects Plant Special Effects of Barriers & Entangles (-1), No Range (-1/2), Costs Endurance (to maintain; -1/2).

 

This would assume that most plant base entangles would have maximum of 4pd and 4 body?

[dmjalund]

Limited Tunnelling?

very limited Desolid?

[Scott Ruggels]

Sounds to me more like desolid, but with limitations. The entangle would stay for other characters, but the Druid would pass through. 

[LoneWolf]

Desolidification would work a lot better for this.

 

The big problem with suppress or other adjustment powers is that by default it targets a specific power rather than working against a special effect.  You can use an advantage to make it affect anything with a specific special effect, but then it only affects a single power.  This can also be increased with another advantage. For this power to work the way it should, you need to +1/2 add the advantage variable effect.  That would allow it to drain a single plant-based power.  Without the advantage expanded effect it could suppress an entangle or a barrier, but not both at one time. Expanded effect will add another +1/2 advantage.  Since you are already increasing it by two to cover both the DEF and BODY, that brings the advantage up to + 1 ½.  So, the active cost on this is 120 points.  To make matters worse you forget about change environment.  
 

[Hugh Neilson]

Definitely a power that should target the character, not the things he bypasses.  Desolid, does not protect against damage (-1 RAW), only to pass through plant-based barriers or impediments (-1 RAW).  Maybe he wants it 0 END, Persistent, although the initial build wasn't (and would require an attack action). I'd waive the requirement for Affects Solid World on this one.

[unclevlad]

If you have APG, the alternate form of Desolid might work too.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Be easier to just build "cannot stop druids from passing" on plant-based barriers and entangles.  But if that part of the campaign is not in your hands, a teleport works.

[Duke Bushido]

9 hours ago, unclevlad said:

If you have APG, the alternate form of Desolid might work too.

 

This is not just a delightful option that allows some barriers to be more or ess effective that other barriers, you can also find this "alternate" version of Desolidification in any of the first 3 editions of Champions, if you happen to have access to one of those, as this is the "alternate Desolid" presented,in APG 1.  Desolid was originally a movement power with interesting side-benefits.  APG 1's alternate option simply returns it to being a movement power.

[unclevlad]

And if you like, you can build your own power.  Both versions allow you to pass through completely solid objects.  If that's not desired, then I built a "diffuse body" power.  Basically:  +1d6 damage negation (PD and ED), and +2 to Contortionist rolls.  Costs END to use.  Side effect:  mass is reduced.  How much is open, because it has limited value...and I don't actually recall.  It does NOT have increased KB;  I figure this is a softer, squishier body so it's compressible.

 

Desolid in Champions 3 is as per 6E, mostly.  Near-perfect defense, pass through almost anything (maybe slowly), flat 40 point cost.  Doesn't have any way to affect the physical world, tho.  Champions the SRPG, 3rd Ed printing, p. 22.

 

 

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

7 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Be easier to just build "cannot stop druids from passing" on plant-based barriers and entangles.  But if that part of the campaign is not in your hands, a teleport works.

T-port also came to mind too. 

[LoneWolf]

The only problem with teleport is what happens if the area is larger than your teleport.  You would be able to move but would be subject to the spell again.   If it is an entangle you could end up with reduced DVC after moving.  If it is a change environment, you could take secondary effects like taking damage from a wall of thorns.  Desolidification prevents all of that.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

You can buy a good 10m of teleport and get through pretty much anything anyone would reasonably create for... 10 points.  Every build has drawbacks and advantages, but distance isn't really one of them for teleport.

[Ninja-Bear]

5 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

The only problem with teleport is what happens if the area is larger than your teleport.  

 

Yeah, I thought of that too. But then those are the breaks isn’t it. 

[unclevlad]

That's because you're using a closed-effect power.  The desolid doesn't care. To be sure:  I'm assuming the basis for this is D&D's Pass Without Trace, so it's not just entangles and barriers.

 

And there's plenty of cases where thick undergrowth will cover FAR!!!!! more than 10 meters.  I get the sense you're thinking about a power, creating the issue.  Swamps.  Rain forests.  In some cases, temperate forests.

 

Teleporting requires assessing a destination point.  In difficult visual conditions, this is much easier said than done...and any barrier, entangle, or overgrown area can *easily* reduce visibility greatly.  It's not quite implied, but it's close.

[Grailknight]

It should be a Desolidification Power and not a Teleport or Suppress. Teleport doesn't work because you need to be unhindered even if you're standing motionless and if you don't have the range to the edge of the barrier, you not only don't have free movement but you take damage for teleporting into a solid. Suppress doesn't work unless  you want to leave a trail of dead plants and demolished barriers that collapsed under their own weight after they lost the DEF to support themselves( It is an Attack Power).

[Tech]

Reading through this, I'd go with Desolid. A problem with Teleport is you need to be able to see your destination. If the druid is passing through alot of bramble, bushes or tall grass, the destination cannot be seen. I'm just thinking Desolid is the best option.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah, every version has its limitations (its easy to get around the line of sight with teleport, but maybe the area is thicker than you bought, etc).  I didn't envision this as a power to get through 500 km of thicket though, just walls and entangle effects.

[Ninja-Bear]

@GrailknightUnless Entangle is bought usable against T-port, Entangle does not hinder you. 

[Grailknight]

3 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

@GrailknightUnless Entangle is bought usable against T-port, Entangle does not hinder you. 

 

Teleport would let you move but what if you need to do something within the area. Your actions would still be hindered because you never left the Entangle. If you're only doing movement, then Tunneling with fills in hole and effect would be a better choice than Teleport.

 

To put it more in the terms of it's source. "You are fighting a druid in a 1 acre bamboo thicket. Your swings are hindered and your movement is blocked but the druid is fighting in an empty room with a smooth floor. You can teleport to another part of the thicket but you're still hindered while he can walk directly to you and even charge you at a sprint"

[unclevlad]

I think some of the issue here is, we're not on the same page.

 

OP said "allow a druid to pass thru plant-based barriers and entangles."  I think some are reading this as the specific powers, Barrier and Entangle...and their answer is directly connected to those powers.  Some of us are reading it as D&D's Pass Without Trace, which includes ignoring a Wall of Thorns, a spell that, IIRC, has aspects of both Barrier and Entangle.  

 

Want a real-world example of why Teleport doesn't work?  A classic hedge maze.  Two pics of one in Spain, from Fodor's.  The maze is said there to be one of the largest in Europe.

 

 

This one shows the height.

 

 

Teleport...not useful or safe.  Desolid...makes it trivial.

Size?  It's given as 5625 square meters, which'd be a square 75 meters, or about 250 feet, on a side, or a touch under 1.4 acres.

[unclevlad]

Just for grins, another maze:

 

I have the feeling I'd be screaming, as no simple rule would seem to work...or at least, would be harder to maintain.  I seriously doubt I could get through it before losing my cool completely.

https://www.amusingplanet.com/2014/09/longleat-hedge-maze-longest-in-world.html

 

The hedges here are 8' tall.  Article notes it takes 6 gardeners with gas-powered trimmers a month to trim this back...and that has to be done every 6 months.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Want a real-world example of why Teleport doesn't work?  A classic hedge maze.

 

What about that prevents teleport from working?

[DentArthurDent]

Tunneling.

 

Years ago I had a player use Tunneling in all sorts of creative ways. 
He never broke the rules or the spirit of the power. Just good ol’ imagination.

I’d definitely go with Tunneling.

[MrAgdesh]

I'm only familiar with the 1E AD&D version of Pass Without Trace - which wasn't actually about bypassing dense undergrowth at all, but simply hiking across various types of terrain (snow, sand, mud etc) without leaving footprints or scent. 

 

If you want to pass through Barriers, or just thick undergrowth, without leaving trace that you've been through (no footprints or scent) then Hugh's suggestion of a very limited Desolid seems perfect. 

 

If you want to pass through them but aren't bothered about leaving tracks then Tunneling is also elegant. 

 

The SFX of either could be that the foliage "parts before you and seals up behind you" but only the former would leave no evidence that you've passed through - to standard senses anyhow.

[Grailknight]

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

What about that prevents teleport from working?

 

Make the hedges solid with no path. You can buy Safe Blind Teleport to get place to place within the hedge without taking damage but any other actions are still hindered. You certainly couldn't fight at full CV and might not be able to Gesture effectively.

 

The problem posed has elements of Entangle, Barrier and Change Environment. Desolidification gets around all of these but works too well and incurs the expense of Affects Real World to counter that.

 

Tunneling could be made to work . It would need  the Fill In adder, 0 END & Persistent and another custom Advantage or SFX handwave so that the material passed through is unaffected by the passage(don't want to kill living plants) and you could Limit it so it's Self Only. Probably more than the Delosidification but no costs to other Powers needed.