Batting back a grenade

[JohnnyR]

Ok, Herophiles, here's the setup: Evil Organization Agent hurls a grenade at Really Agile Hero (who has a Held Action). Said Hero swats the grenade back in Agent's direction, or at least away from himself.

What's the best way to do this? Not Reflection.  Not a Grab and throw. A simple DEX roll? A DEX roll followed by OCV roll with no levels (like targeting something with a thrown character)?

A Block plus something else? Multiple attack required? Other?

[Gauntlet]

I actually would say that Reflection would be the best way. It is considered a thrown object and would be vulnerable to Deflection/Reflection.

 

This of course would mean that it is thrown in your hex or one hex from hit. If it is not you would need to dive for cover to the hex where it was thrown to or have stretching or perhaps TK.

Edited June 25, 2023 by Gauntlet

[Christopher R Taylor]

This kind of comes down to special effect.  A grenade's special effect is that its a physical bomb that is thrown or launched into an area with a timer.  A GM has to use judgement for this kind of thing; is it reasonable to hit it back?  The problem is that a grenade has a much larger area of effect than someone could reasonably hit it away (so it has to go in a trench or window or something to provide cover), and that at its size, its 8 DCV, so it will be a challenge to hit.

[Duke Bushido]

I tend to run Heroic groups more than supers, so this one has actually come up several times over the years.

 

What are the official rules on this?

 

I don't know.

 

What is the best way to resolve this?

 

I dont know that, either.

 

What did we do in the past that was reasonable enough in the moment that we just stuck with it from then on?

 

We caught it.

 

A brief explanation:

 

It was decided that a character should not have to be a ninja to have a chance at this, nor should he have to buy a special ability to do it (deflection, reflection, etc).   Why would we decide such a thing?  Because outside of supers, this is a really odd and dangerous thing to practice as far as building skills goes, at least outside of baseball.

 

So we started looking at various maneuvers (everyman maneuvers, figuring catching /blocking / cracking with a bat were not particularly "martial") and eventually decided that Block was the best basis as it was an offensive maneuver ("throw grenade") versus an offensive maneuver ("attack grenade").

 

The grenades "CV" is calculated from its base movement- that is, determine how many hexes it will travels in this segment and use any appropriate DCV modifier a character moving at that speed might receive.   Add in any DCV modifiers a character would recieve for Shrinking to the size most equal to the grenade. 

 

Finally, if the throwing character has any special relevant throwing skills like "baseball pitcher" or something to suggest he has a specific talent at throwing something yet making it challenging to intercept, determine a way to add that as well.  (Typically, I just add relevant skill level: "+2 with throwing grenades," for example, to the CV.  Actual skills-- professional Baseball Pitcher, maybe-- then the player rolls the skill and the amount by which he makes the roll is applied).  This is the CV of the grenade-- the CV against which the deflecting character with his Block maneuver, and not against that of the CV of the throwing character.

 

 

Sounds complex,  but it is pretty simple in practice.  As with the person throwing the grenade, the person attempting to deflect the grenade is allowed relevant skills and skill levels.

 

The blocking character must specify (and pay END for) the amount of STR he wishes to put into his attempt.

 

 

If the Block is successful, then the grenade is deflected from this point of contact. Roll a d3 to determine if the grenade veers left, right, or up-and-over.  The grenade will travel a distance equal to that of having been thrown by 1/2 of the deflecting character's declared STR.

 

If the deflecting character makes his roll by half the target number, roll a d6 for direction (with one result being "up and over" the target hex and the people in it) and the grenade travels a distance equal to the full declared STR throwing distance of the deflecting character.

 

If he makes his roll by 1/4, he may select the 3-hex_face arc he wishes to deflect into, and roll a d3 to setermine the line of travel.  The full declared STR determines the travel distance.

 

If he rolls a 3, the grenade is stamped "return to sender," provided that this target is in range of his declared STR.  Otherwise, it travels as far back towards the throwing character as the declared STR will allow.

 

 

"But this seems to make it so difficult..."

 

Well, first, that stands up to real-world observation.  Honestly, this results in 1 in 200-something grenades being sent back to the user _at a minimum_.  I feel certain that if this ratio was attained real-world, people would just stop using grenades, so it seems dramtically generous.

 

Second, this is an everyman way to do it.  Deflecrion and Reflection are actual game elements that can be purchased if one wishes an easier way to do these things.

 

 

 

[unclevlad]

The velocity DCV is probably 3.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M67_grenade

 

Can be thrown 30-35 meters with a 4-5 second travel time (so possibly Extra Segment).  That's getting you into the 100 meter per turn range.

 

The size-based DCV...the length is 9 cm.  By RAW, 4 levels would be 1/16th size.  I like 3 point "half levels"...they're actually easy to work with, and the benefits of Shrinking are all in increments of 2, so using "half levels" is quite easy.  So I'd use +9 DCV from size.  Net DCV, 12.

 

Another consideration...HOW is it being deflected?  The M67 is a timed fuse...but how much is left?  Would "swatting" it trigger the last bit?  That, I don't know.  There'll be an indeterminate amount of time left before the fuse runs out in any case, and in the general case where Agile Hero is near the intended point of impact...it won't be very long.  Worse...the M68 version is an impact fuse.  Hitting it hard enough to swat it back would be more of an impact than striking a surface...so it'll go BOOM.  

 

So, the earlier you can intercept it, the better, but it won't be easy or necessarily safe.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

The velocity DCV is probably 3.

d

probably, but that would only apply if the grenade is moving past the character, not toward them.  Frankly, the size DCV is excessive in my mind as well (its not that hard to hit a ball someone tosses at you), but 8 (to be precise, 9 as you note) is what the rules say. I'd say 4.  Nobody is burning one of these things across the plate at 100 mph, you cannot throw a grenade as hard as Nolan Ryan throws a baseball, even if you had that kid of arm.

[JohnnyR]

All good points. Reflection is the easiest way to go, but even with the limitation Only vs. Thrown Objects, Our Hero couldn't Reflect knives, axes, etc. That's why I avoided it at first. I think a more limited Limitation would work. 

4 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

It was decided that a character should not have to be a ninja to have a chance at this, nor should he have to buy a special ability to do it (deflection, reflection, etc).   Why would we decide such a thing?  Because outside of supers, this is a really odd and dangerous thing to practice as far as building skills goes, at least outside of baseball.

 

My original thinking as well. And this is a supers campaign, though a low-powered one.

 

4 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

As with the person throwing the grenade, the person attempting to deflect the grenade is allowed relevant skills and skill levels.

 

Well, first, that stands up to real-world observation.  Honestly, this results in 1 in 200-something grenades being sent back to the user _at a minimum_.  I feel certain that if this ratio was attained real-world, people would just stop using grenades, so it seems dramtically generous.

 

Second, this is an everyman way to do it.  Deflecrion and Reflection are actual game elements that can be purchased if one wishes an easier way to do these things.

 

 

Amen!

 

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 A GM has to use judgement for this kind of thing; is it reasonable to hit it back? 

The problem is that a grenade has a much larger area of effect than someone could reasonably hit it away (so it has to go in a trench or window or something to provide cover), and that at its size, its 8 DCV, so it will be a challenge to hit.

 

Reasonable for a superhero, yes (see Cap in The Avengers, helicarrier repair scene). Large AoE yes, but most heroes should have enough STR to swat it a good distance (provided the DEX roll is made), and it's a desperate last ditch effort, especially if it's a frag and not a flashbang or gas grenade.

 

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

 

Frankly, the size DCV is excessive in my mind as well (its not that hard to hit a ball someone tosses at you), but 8 (to be precise, 9 as you note) is what the rules say. I'd say 4.  Nobody is burning one of these things across the plate at 100 mph, you cannot throw a grenade as hard as Nolan Ryan throws a baseball, even if you had that kid of arm.

 

Preach, brother!

 

As far as impact detonation and whether a bottom-rung agent mook has the Presence of mind to cook-off a frag grenade in his hand, those are topics for another day...

Thanks, y'all.

[unclevlad]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

d

probably, but that would only apply if the grenade is moving past the character, not toward them.  Frankly, the size DCV is excessive in my mind as well (its not that hard to hit a ball someone tosses at you), but 8 (to be precise, 9 as you note) is what the rules say. I'd say 4.  Nobody is burning one of these things across the plate at 100 mph, you cannot throw a grenade as hard as Nolan Ryan throws a baseball, even if you had that kid of arm.

 

What's the difference between moving toward, and moving past?  I fail to see what that would matter.  It would matter if the hero's moving, but velo DCV is only based on relative velos. 

And how many levels of OCV does the batter have, in hitting a baseball?  That's a critical factor, but given that they spend an hour a day, doing nothing BUT practicing this, every day for years...it's pretty darn easy to say "a LOT."  Granted:  the base velo DCV of a fastball at 90 mph is 7.  Oh, also, the bat itself adds, what, +2 OCV?  Would the hero be swatting with his hand, or something else?

 

If the hero has an 8, then a DCV 12 means a 16% chance of hitting it.  Which sounds right when you only have *1* shot to do this, not multiple chances.

 

I wasn't even thinking the mook was cooking off the fuse.  The grenade simply doesn't move very fast.  Article said 30-35 meters was typical.  If the grenade's doing 10 m/s, that's 3 seconds transit time, plus the time between pulling the pin and actually throwing it...that's not long, but given that we're down to 1-2 seconds, 1/4 to 1/3 of a second to actually gather and throw it, becomes significant.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

What's the difference between moving toward, and moving past?  I fail to see what that would matter.

 

Its much harder to hit something moving across you rather than toward you.  The speed is much less of a factor, in fact unless the speed is really high, its not much of a factor at all.  Think of it this way: someone throws a ball past you vs toward you.  As I recall the rules actually take that into account.

 

Quote

And how many levels of OCV does the batter have, in hitting a baseball?  That's a critical factor, but given that they spend an hour a day, doing nothing BUT practicing this, every day for years

 

Yeah but he's trying to hit a ball thrown by a pitcher at 70+ MPH with movement.  I guarantee you, from past experience in my life, without hundreds of hours of training, being very athletic, or being in great shape, that I can hit a ball you throw at me grenade speed more than 1 time out of 8. 

 

Its a separate issue, but the size DCV issue in Hero has long, long been problematic in my opinion.  Take a little kid. DCV 3 but half my size, so they are DCV 5 now.  Suddenly its gone from 50% chance to hit someone equally skilled to just under 26% chance.  They ain't that spry.  2 DCV per halving is excessive in my opinion, by about double.

Edited June 25, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[JohnnyR]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

 

Would the hero be swatting with his hand, or something else?

 

I would think most times it would be the hand, though something like a certain star-spangly shield would help. 

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

If the hero has an 8, then a DCV 12 means a 16% chance of hitting it.  Which sounds right when you only have *1* shot to do this, not multiple chances.

 

Granted, it is an action that is not likely to succeed, much less hitting the grenade right back to the thrower, that's why I hesitated to write it up as Reflection.

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

I wasn't even thinking the mook was cooking off the fuse.  The grenade simply doesn't move very fast.  Article said 30-35 meters was typical.  If the grenade's doing 10 m/s, that's 3 seconds transit time, plus the time between pulling the pin and actually throwing it...that's not long, but given that we're down to 1-2 seconds, 1/4 to 1/3 of a second to actually gather and throw it, becomes significant.

 

Agreed, but in the example, our hero swats it. And if the thrown range is less than 30-35, such as in an urban environment or helicarrier, there is more of a "grace" period. Plus, to really nitpick, the fuse activates upon the spoon springing away from the grenade body, not the pulling of the pin. So, unless it's cooked-off, the timer starts upon release of the grenade.

So in Champions, there is potentially "plenty" of time for an agile and fast hero to "bat it" away, taking into account variables such as cook-off time, distance thrown, length of fuse, reaction time, DEX roll, etc.

In other words: GM's call.

 

 

[Sketchpad]

I would imagine someone could abort to toss the grenade back. Maybe an OCV vs. OCV check might work? Alternatively, there could always be a time limit for the grenade. Maybe a delayed phase, or maybe an activation?

[Duke Bushido]

I need to be brief, so I am going to address only one point.  Sorry, folks; I am enjoying the conversation, I am just short on both time and energy right now.

 

The point was raised that the large AoE of a grenade versus how far a person could reasonably redirect or throw it, etc--

 

I wanted to ask that we consider-- at least in non-supers games--  that a grenade is typically built with AoE: Explosion.  With this in mind, we know that every hex we can move the dead center of the explosion increases the odds of surviving the explosion, making this a much more tempting maneuver-- at least in a game-- than it would be in the real world, where the best option to survive is to dive for cover immediately.

 

 

[IndianaJoe3]

Some actual experiements.

 

[Doc Democracy]

Been thinking about this.  I reckon the attack needs to take a limitation of returnable attack.  Almost like Extra time. 

 

If someone fires a returnable attack, then the defender decides on their response, dive for cover, brace for impact, try to return it.

 

If you try to return it, that attacker then rolls their PRE (-1 per 10 active points), every point they make the PRE roll by is a penalty to the defender's DEX roll.

 

The idea behind the PRE roll is keeping a cool head to run down the timer, modified by how dangerous it is to hold onto it.

 

If the modified DEX roll is successful, the attack is returned.  If not, the grenade goes off at zero range.

[Jason Reid]

To me this doesn't sound like a move that just any random VIPER agent would have available to them in their repertoire, so I don't think it needs core combat maneuver rule support. I'd have no problem requiring a character to pay points for the privilege. Reflection with some limitations maybe seems fine to me. You could probably lay on enough to get this looking like a Talent.

 

Alternatively yeah you could build the attack with a special limitation like, "Reflectable" or "Deflectable" but then you're rewriting every grenade in the game, or justifying why some grenades have this disadvantage while others don't.

 

Other Alternatively you could extend the Real Weapon disadvantage to cover this, at least for the grenades that take it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Real Weapon sounds like the best approach for allowing the grenade to be returned.  It should not be easy, but anyone could attempt it.  No one gets trained to do this, so a special maneuver seems out of place.

We could simply use Grab mechanics (DCV based on size and velocity) - once you Grab, a Throw is a free followup.  Given the defensive nature, I'd allow an Abort.

[Doc Democracy]

3 hours ago, Jason Reid said:

To me this doesn't sound like a move that just any random VIPER agent would have available to them in their repertoire, so I don't think it needs core combat maneuver rule support. I'd have no problem requiring a character to pay points for the privilege. Reflection with some limitations maybe seems fine to me. You could probably lay on enough to get this looking like a Talent.

 

Alternatively yeah you could build the attack with a special limitation like, "Reflectable" or "Deflectable" but then you're rewriting every grenade in the game, or justifying why some grenades have this disadvantage while others don't.

 

Other Alternatively you could extend the Real Weapon disadvantage to cover this, at least for the grenades that take it.

 

I was not actually suggesting a special manouevre or anything, just a way of managing the thing in play.    I have no problem with some grenades having this disadvantage while others do not, just like some grenades will be real weapons and others will not.  🙂 You could, of course, fold it into the real weapon limitation but then it comes back to how it looks in play.  By making this a limitation of the attack, you get the rolls during the attack without impacting the actions of the target.

 

25 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Real Weapon sounds like the best approach for allowing the grenade to be returned.  It should not be easy, but anyone could attempt it.  No one gets trained to do this, so a special maneuver seems out of place.

We could simply use Grab mechanics (DCV based on size and velocity) - once you Grab, a Throw is a free followup.  Given the defensive nature, I'd allow an Abort.

 

Hugh's suggestion works too but it means that the chances of it happening rely purely on the OCV of the target with essentially no reflection on the skill of the grenadier being able to time the throw.  @Hugh Neilson if a character wants to try and return the grenade, do you mean you would say, "yes, if you abort your next action you can try a grab and throw"?? If they fail the grab, does that mean they have aborted, simply to ensure they are at ground zero of the explosion, or would you then ignore the failed grab and see what the attack roll said??  I am also wondering if you have worked out what chance your everyman soldier might have to do this?

 

I do agree with Hugh that anyone should be able to attempt it.

[Tech]

I ran into this situation once. I merely had the hero make a block roll to send it back and then to make an to-hit roll against the villain. It was a one-time event and heroic; I'm not going to penalize the player for trying something cool and heroic. If the character is going to be able to do this on a regular basic, then I'd go with Reflection.

[Hugh Neilson]

5 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

Hugh's suggestion works too but it means that the chances of it happening rely purely on the OCV of the target with essentially no reflection on the skill of the grenadier being able to time the throw.  if a character wants to try and return the grenade, do you mean you would say, "yes, if you abort your next action you can try a grab and throw"?? If they fail the grab, does that mean they have aborted, simply to ensure they are at ground zero of the explosion, or would you then ignore the failed grab and see what the attack roll said??  I am also wondering if you have worked out what chance your everyman soldier might have to do this?

 

I do agree with Hugh that anyone should be able to attempt it.

 

We could certainly fine-tune grenades to have the fuse count down, if we really want granularity.  That would suggest that the fuse is set by the action of the grenadier, who then must decide how long to wait before throwing it.  Then he throws, and the countdown continues.  That would also allow the grenade to land and someone to attempt to pick it up and throw it back.  Of course, the grenadier could also wait too long - perhaps he is distracted by a PRE attack!

 

We could reasonably start with the attack roll - the catcher has to go where the grenade will land to attempt a grab and throw back.

 

I haven't done any math, but between the size and velocity of the grenade and the Grab penalties, I suspect it would be unlikely the average soldier would succeed.  If it turns out to be too easy, then we have a problem as we know it's uncommon in reality and in the source material.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Hugh Neilson

[Doc Democracy]

27 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

We could certainly fine-tune grenades to have the fuse count down, if we really want granularity.  That would suggest that the fuse is set by the action of the grenadier, who then must decide how long to wait before throwing it.  Then he throws, and the countdown continues.  That would also allow the grenade to land and someone to attempt to pick it up and throw it back.  Of course, the grenadier could also wait too long - perhaps he is distracted by a PRE attack!

 

We could do all that, but we are playing a game rather than simulating life.  RAW there is no real chance of doing this.  In the source material, the war comics and movies I watched, it happened often enough to be a thing.

 

So, if we want it to be a thing, how do we make it possible.  Too much detail and you lose interest and becomes tedious.  Too much cost and noone ever attempts it. 

 

I was looking to offer a more limited attack, one that does not just have an effect.  But to minimise the additional bureaucracy involved.

 

And one that does not necessitate working out size and velocity modifiers (because I am very lazy...)

[Hugh Neilson]

Agreed on finding some middle ground.  That may include "all grenade tosses are created equal".

 

I think we only need to work out size modifiers once, and we could simply set a standard for velocity rather than working that out in play. So there's our DCV, set as part of the trope.

 

As an alternative, perhaps this simply becomes part of the "can be blocked/deflected" element typically included in a grenade. This gets the skill of the grenadier back in, as Block requires beating the grenadier's OCV with your Block roll. The drawback being that a more accurate throw doesn't necessarily make it harder to catch the grenade, just more likely that the grenadier accurately places it.  But if we assume that OCV includes timing the throw, then you have the grenadier's skill incorporated.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Hugh Neilson

[Doc Democracy]

I think how much detail you want will vary by genre.  If I am in Champions, I reckon 99% of the time I dont want any difference in how grenades work.  If I am playing a skirmish WWII game then I want the potential for throwing back grenades and, potentially, shooting grenadiers who drop their grenade among their fellows.  Grenades in the second can be high risk, high gain weapons. 

 

Would have made a good article for Adventurer's Club....

[Tech]

2 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I think how much detail you want will vary by genre.  If I am in Champions, I reckon 99% of the time I dont want any difference in how grenades work.  If I am playing a skirmish WWII game then I want the potential for throwing back grenades and, potentially, shooting grenadiers who drop their grenade among their fellows.  Grenades in the second can be high risk, high gain weapons. 

 

Would have made a good article for Adventurer's Club....

Cool! You remember the AC? Got most of them myself.

[greypaladin_01]

What about giving grenades a 1 segment delay, something akin to Haymaker?   This would give a small window to reflect the fuse time but also to give characters a chance to move, grab/throw, dive for cover, etc?

 

Obviously it would depend on genre but it would also give a window for other characters to shoot (or ranged disarm) the grenadiers and have it fall at their feet.

[Doc Democracy]

1 hour ago, Tech said:

Cool! You remember the AC? Got most of them myself.

Ah, was suggesting it would have been a good article in there, I don't think there ever was.... 😢