Buying back Champions video game licensing rights?

[megaplayboy]

In light of the success of Baldur's Gate 3, similar success for Pathfinder in video games, Games Workshop, R Talsorian(CP 2077), Mechwarrior, etc., I am a little saddened that Hero Games' IP lies fallow in this area.  Would it be possible, at least hypothetically, for Hero Games to "buy back" its IP/licensing rights from Cryptic or whomever, so that Hero could be free to negotiate with a major game developer for a long term project to bring a AAA title into being.  I believe that the Hero Games mechanics and approach to RPGs, if successfully adapted, would absolutely revolutionize the CRPG and Console RPG industry and keep Hero in the black for a very long time.  Has there ever been any discussion with the IP owners about a buyback?

[Simon]

I suspect your order of operations is off a bit - it makes little to no sense to outlay the funds required to buy back the Champions IP and then hope that another offer comes along to purchase said IP at a higher price.  

 

If there is interest in building a CRPG or other game enterprise based off of the Champions IP (and not "just" HERO System), that would be the time to work on the transfer/buy back of IP.

[Lord Liaden]

At this time Champions Online continues to tick along with little development and almost no new content aside from costume pieces and the like. However, from reports on the game's website, it continues to pay for itself under those conditions, so Gearbox, the company which now owns Cryptic Studios, can't be feeling any pressure to sell. Moreover, with the low player base compared to many other MMORPGs, it's unlikely that another company will look at it as a desirable acquisition, regardless of who owns it.

 

Also, look at the state of Hero Games today. The company is barely managing to publish any TTRPG products. It's hard to imagine them getting the capital together for this scale of purchase for the foreseeable future.

 

I realize I'm coming across as a massive downer, but I just can't see a way forward to what you're asking for.

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Lord Liaden

[Hugh Neilson]

I think the more likely scenario would be someone seeing this potential approaching the current owners of the IP to acquire it, perhaps with the existing Online game as a starting base to build on.

[Lord Liaden]

It would be hard to make the "suits" see that potential when, outside of the properties of the Big Two comics companies, no superhero MMORPG is drawing any sort of high profile. Even Marvel and DC have had a string of falters in the games they've put out.

 

Also keep in mind that the software engine for Champions Online is more than a decade out of date, a huge gap for computers. It would probably need to be rebuilt from scratch to match today's performance standards.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Lord Liaden

[Christopher R Taylor]

A significant cash infusion could bring back the publishing wing of Hero, but as an investor I would be extremely hesitant to invest in role playing games of any kind.

[Cygnia]

Clearly, we need Foxbat!

[Lord Liaden]

31 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

A significant cash infusion could bring back the publishing wing of Hero, but as an investor I would be extremely hesitant to invest in role playing games of any kind.

 

It happened with the purchase by Cryptic Studios. That's when we got that brief surge of glossy paper, color artwork, and hardback covers.

But yeah, from a business standpoint RPGs aren't tempting investors with success right now, aside from a very few "name" properties.

 

19 minutes ago, Cygnia said:

Clearly, we need Foxbat!

 

Right, that's a name synonymous with success.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Lord Liaden

[megaplayboy]

5 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

At this time Champions Online continues to tick along with little development and almost no new content aside from costume pieces and the like. However, from reports on the game's website, it continues to pay for itself under those conditions, so Gearbox, the company which now owns Cryptic Studios, can't be feeling any pressure to sell. Moreover, with the low player base compared to many other MMORPGs, it's unlikely that another company will look at it as a desirable acquisition, regardless of who owns it.

 

Also, look at the state of Hero Games today. The company is barely managing to publish any TTRPG products. It's hard to imagine them getting the capital together for this scale of purchase for the foreseeable future.

 

I realize I'm coming across as a massive downer, but I just can't see a way forward to what you're asking for.

 

 

5 hours ago, Simon said:

I suspect your order of operations is off a bit - it makes little to no sense to outlay the funds required to buy back the Champions IP and then hope that another offer comes along to purchase said IP at a higher price.  

 

If there is interest in building a CRPG or other game enterprise based off of the Champions IP (and not "just" HERO System), that would be the time to work on the transfer/buy back of IP.

Partially I'm curious about what magnitude the buyback amount might be.   I assume that the original sale price was substantial (6 figures or low 7 figures), but not outrageous. 

I also think that the pitch/solicitation would have to come from Hero to development houses, not vice versa.  I doubt they're going to go out of their way to approach HG or Cryptic.

I think Baldurs Gate or similar--single player/coop RPG with NPC party members and a rich plot, setting and backstory--is a potentially viable model.   I don’t think an MMORPG is the right model right now--without an immersive storyline and detailed universe, the novelty wears off quickly.

 

It's also possible that inquiries or solicitations could be made using Hero Universe source material from Fantasy Hero, Pulp Hero, or Star Hero, just for proof of concept.

 

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

It would be hard to make the "suits" see that potential when, outside of the properties of the Big Two comics companies, no superhero MMORPG is drawing any sort of high profile. Even Marvel and DC have had a string of falters in the games they've put out.

 

Also keep in mind that the software engine for Champions Online is more than a decade out of date, a huge gap for computers. It would probably need to be rebuilt from scratch to match today's performance standards.

I think you need to look at conventional CRPG as the model, not MMORPG.

[Doc Democracy]

To my understanding IP is valuable when it draws an existing customer base to a new product.

 

If a development house wanted to put out a superhero CRPG, it could create its own background world and characters, it could draw on existing comic book worlds or existing superhero RPG worlds.

 

Obviously the big, well-known comic book universes cost a LOT but have the potential of drawing from a much bigger marketplace.  The question would be, how much of that market cross over into buying computer games.

 

That is the attraction of existing RPG universes, that customer base is likely to more heavily overlap. There are a couple of other IPs that currently draw bigger customer bases as far as RPG sales go.  Champions probably has decent brand recognition among the right demographic (older, wealthier and looking to relive the glories of the past, especially if they have lost touch with their gaming friends).  I know I would pick up such a game almost immediately, would even kickstarter it.

 

What I don't see is a current, popular campaign using Champions IP that a development house might pick up and use to drive sales in a CRPG.  I don't see an actual play podcast, ideally focused around a current, popular campaign, picking up an audience that would also be potential customers.

 

It would be then that developers would begin to see dollar signs wherever they saw the HERO branding.

[megaplayboy]

2 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

To my understanding IP is valuable when it draws an existing customer base to a new product.

 

If a development house wanted to put out a superhero CRPG, it could create its own background world and characters, it could draw on existing comic book worlds or existing superhero RPG worlds.

 

Obviously the big, well-known comic book universes cost a LOT but have the potential of drawing from a much bigger marketplace.  The question would be, how much of that market cross over into buying computer games.

 

That is the attraction of existing RPG universes, that customer base is likely to more heavily overlap. There are a couple of other IPs that currently draw bigger customer bases as far as RPG sales go.  Champions probably has decent brand recognition among the right demographic (older, wealthier and looking to relive the glories of the past, especially if they have lost touch with their gaming friends).  I know I would pick up such a game almost immediately, would even kickstarter it.

 

What I don't see is a current, popular campaign using Champions IP that a development house might pick up and use to drive sales in a CRPG.  I don't see an actual play podcast, ideally focused around a current, popular campaign, picking up an audience that would also be potential customers.

 

It would be then that developers would begin to see dollar signs wherever they saw the HERO branding.

Honestly, I think the hidden value is the system mechanics itself, not the IP backstory.  I figure that games and coding have evolved enough that what was a serious conundrum 10-30 years ago is less so today.

[Lord Liaden]

I would need far more programming experience to say whether or not you're figuring accurately.   I do know that Champions Online play only resembles HERO System in a few very superficial ways.

[Christopher R Taylor]

MMOG's tend to succeed or fail based on their entertainment and quality factor.  You make a good one, and people will play and pay for it, at least for a while.  Licensing or recognizable IP does not seem to actually affect that much if at all.

[megaplayboy]

6 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

MMOG's tend to succeed or fail based on their entertainment and quality factor.  You make a good one, and people will play and pay for it, at least for a while.  Licensing or recognizable IP does not seem to actually affect that much if at all.

Again, I don't think that the IP should be used for an MMORPG.   I think a more standard CRPG with coop options, like BG3, is the way to go.   

[Lord Liaden]

Either way, extremely unlikely to happen for the foreseeable future, for all the reasons previously mentioned.

[steriaca]

Remember the Champions IP was picked up and bought outright as a cheap and quick replacement when Marvel fell through. So, even if they are not doing anything major with it, they are not really going to let others buy it back for HERO.

[Sketchpad]

I wouldn't be shocked if the right bid was made that someone could buy the Champions IP. Whether that was for HERO or something else wouldn't really matter. 

 

I was always bummed we never got the old CRPG that was teased in Adventurer's Club...

[Christopher R Taylor]

Have to play Freedom Force instead

[Simon]

Would it benefit HERO if some company (for whatever reason) decided to spend a significant amount of money and time creating a game which promoted the system (based on HERO mechanics, IP, or whatever)?  Certainly.  But the lack of business acumen on display by some in this thread is worrying.

 

Let's remove the IP rights from consideration -- assume that they're yours. You've managed to get a moment with one of the higher ups at a major development studio (e.g. Blizzard).  Give us your elevator pitch.  Why should they have any interest in purchasing the IP for Champions vs. going with a well-known commodity like Marvel or DC...or writing their own?

That doesn't mean that HERO System's IP is worthless, it's just not worth anything meaningful to the CRPG or MMORPG industries -- there's not enough cross-over from the already small section of the TTRPG market that HERO occupies to make any such consideration make sense.

[Sketchpad]

12 hours ago, Simon said:

Let's remove the IP rights from consideration -- assume that they're yours. You've managed to get a moment with one of the higher ups at a major development studio (e.g. Blizzard).  Give us your elevator pitch.  Why should they have any interest in purchasing the IP for Champions vs. going with a well-known commodity like Marvel or DC...or writing their own?

 

Well, to begin with, it's relatively unknown to the public at large. That works as an advantage in some respects. While Marvel & DC have "household names" at their fingertips, something like the Champions IP could piggyback off that fame depending on its use. Using the video game example, there are plenty of big games that have no ties to any other property. God of War, Call of Duty, GTA... none are based off other properties and have created a large fanbase for themselves with a draw extending beyond their games. The same technically could be done with the Champions IP. Would it be difficult? Possibly, but not impossible. The harder part, as we know, is expectations. A Champions CRPG may have to shed some of the HERO system to work properly. Creating a Crusader game like the Arkham games could be fun, but it wouldn't be a game with mechanics that we all love and play. 

[Simon]

Why would a company pay for a "relatively unknown" IP when they could just create their own (as was done in the very examples you cite)?  What's the sell?

[Lord Liaden]

Sketch, the thing is, what you're talking about was already tried, by Cryptic Studios. A developer with name recognition and experience in the genre, who put money and talent into designing it. The Champions IP already has a reputation among computer game designers, as that superhero game that started off promising but faltered, and that relatively few people play now. The IP was never fully exploited, and what Cryptic chose to do with it often doesn't reflect what the setting is really about; but that's what others in the CRPG field see when you mention Champions.

 

The ones who see its full potential are those of us in this community, and none of us are in a position to exploit it in the computer game field. It's a lovely dream, and playing "what if" is fun, but until one of us with game design credibility obtains a big whack of capital, it's just a dream.

[Hugh Neilson]

3 hours ago, Simon said:

Why would a company pay for a "relatively unknown" IP when they could just create their own (as was done in the very examples you cite)?  What's the sell?

 

The only reason would be any savings (time and $$) by using existing material rather than developing it internally.  From the game developer's perspective, Hero's IP is not a great choice as the computer gamers want to see regular content updates, and Hero isn't generating new content nearly rapidly enough to be a reliable source, so all they save is up front "initial world" development.

OTOH, Marvel and DC are not going to sell the IP rights in perpetuity like Hero did, so the developer is always at risk of the license not being renewed. That risk is also avoided by developing the IP in-house, of course.

 

Overall, if there was a huge benefit to be had, Cryptic would either exploit the IP or sell their rights to someone who will.  If they had a Marvel license, I have no doubt Marvel would be shopping the renewal rights around given how cryptic has faltered, but Marvel has a steady stream of new content (Movies, TV, comics) to market a game with their IP. 

 

Agreed that there is no real business case for the CU IP.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Hugh Neilson

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

The only reason would be any savings (time and $$) by using existing material rather than developing it internally.  From the game developer's perspective

 

Right, that would be in my elevator pitch, along with "Marvel and DC would charge you the moon to use their IP" and a nudge about how both companies have managed to alienate a lot of people but Hero has never done anything to annoy potential fans.  It could easily be done, but MMOGs almost never do well.  Its not that Hero is a bad product or choice, its that computer games are very difficult and expensive to make work out.  Building a brand new from scratch MMOG costs around a billion dollars from what I understand.

[Simon]

So the sales pitch is that the company should pay for relatively unknown IP so that their artists/creatives can be constrained in what they do best...rather than letting those same creatives save them time and money by simply creating their own world/characters (and the art to go along with)?