Who is the MOST Annoying Villain you have Encountered?

[Duke Bushido]

On 8/30/2023 at 1:41 PM, BoloOfEarth said:

 

Someone, somewhere on these boards (maybe Hermit?) had (IMO) a great idea for revising CLOWN.  IIRC, their pranks were changed to be more socially / environmentally conscious.  

 

 

You know, Bolo, I hate CLOWN _so much_ that I had to ruminate on this for five months befire squeaking out a begrudgingly mumbled "that might be acceptable....."

 

 

I have to go stew a bit now.

 

 

 

Edited February 4 by Duke Bushido

[Lord Liaden]

I do have to say that IMHO there are some intriguing character concepts and designs within CLOWN.  Several of them, used solo or in pairs, or as part of a group of villains with different motivations, could enhance a Champions game. It's only collectively, and used the way the CLOWN text suggests, that they're insufferable.

[Trencher]

Clown exist only for one reason and that is to p**s on the players. Its a GM tool to either make them feel stupid for failing to defeat them or making them feel bad about killing half of them if you do defeat them. That is how they are designed. Glass cannons that can whallop regular PC's but die almost instantly if they are hit with big attacks. There are exceptions but that only makes it more annoying. 

 

Dr Destroyer is not meant to be particularly interesting personality wise, he is designed as an final boss of this game. He is an powerhouse and generally the most powerful enemy the players will ever defeat. Kicking his ass is meant to be something to be bragged about for years to come. He is an mechanical creation for maximum battle game play. 

Role playing games are a different medium from cooperative fiction writing. And while there is overlap since role playing is a part of the role playing game Dr Destroyer are much more a part of the game than the roleplaying.  The roleplaying would be about the team cooperating and coming up with a way to defeat this incredibly powerful villain. 

 

And there not being that much underneath that cool armour than an old narcissistic pompous douche is actually perfectly reasonable for his role in the role playing narrative. 

As an aside he can also be a victim. Sometimes bad things happen to bad people. Being a victim is not an status in itself that makes you better or worse than any  other you are simply a victim. 

 

Clown are by far the most annoying enemies a player can ever face because facing them means your heroic fantasy is going to end right then and there and the evening you set aside to play that heroic fantasy is going to be wasted by the GM making fun of you. 

Because here is the thing. Clown are not killers so there really are no reason to dress up in a costume and go stopping them from whatever nonsense they are doing. 

Think of Clown as the youtube pranksters of the current day. 

You either have to laugh with the GM or be a stick in the mud. And or you have to have your character get smacked around, and or you have to be guilt tripped for going to far against whatever clown your character took out. 

The only defense against clown is to be a bigger douche than they are: "Wow my eybeam cut that skatboarder in half yuck-yuck-yuck"

 

If you like to play an hero saving the day you know your not going to if Clown arrive. 

And if you like the concept of Clown and are not to busy with playing the latest Suicide Squad game you might think of using them in the game but I think you will have to admit you think about using them against your own players not playing against them yourself. 

[Chris Goodwin]

CLOWN as written are exactly those jerks we've all had run-ins with who, when called out on their jerkitude, deflect responsibility with "It was just a joke!" regardless of any harm it may have caused. 

 

As a wise man once said...

 

Quote

A "practical joker" deserves applause for his wit according to its quality. Bastinado is about right.  For exceptional wit one might grant keelhauling. But staking him out on an anthill should be reserved for the very wittiest.

From the Notebooks of Lazarus Long

[Chris Goodwin]

On 9/13/2023 at 7:14 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Now, is the annoying part that the character is hard to hit, can easily escape and requires considering new tactical options to defeat...

 

or that the character spends his phases humiliating the PC by dumping beverages on him? You can run well past the speed of sound, and the best use you can think to put that do is dumping fast food on people?  That's worse than the character who designs and builds super-scientific devices and uses them to rob jewellery stores and banks.

 

This points up a problem I'm starting to have with suspension of disbelief around superheroes.  Why would someone with powers choose to use them to be annoying at best or just plain evil?  (Actually, the same people who IRL try to get away with "It was just a prank!" would probably be the ones who would, I dunno, accidentally cause widespread collateral damage and claim it was a joke.)

 

Let me emphasize that I love superheroes, love playing them, love the MCU movies and quite enjoyed the DC ones. 

 

I can still turn that part of my brain off, but afterwards, or in places like this thread, I have to remind myself: buy the premise, buy the bit, as Johnny Carson used to say. 

 

In the tragically short Champions game I ran for some friends in 2018 or so, I think I started failing to buy the premise.  And while my players had all seen and loved the MCU films, they didn't really want to play superheroes. 

 

Thread tax: one of my best friends, my first Champions GM, and the best GM I know, had a slight arms race tendency, and a bigger annoying villain tendency.  He'd been playing Champions longer and is generally smarter than me.  (I'm certainly not dumb, but he's got me beat by at least 20 IQ points.)  His villains were always tougher and more coordinated, and just when I was about to have them down (one on one games usually, or one on two with his brother sometimes), one of them would scoop up his teammates and teleport out.  On the few occasions they did make it to capture, they'd escape from custody sometime after. 

 

The most annoying one, though, was the Silver Paladin.  Dumb as a box of rocks, he thought the heroes were villains and vice versa.  His catch phrases were a singsong  "Hey hee hee HO HO!" and, to the heroes, "Halt, villain!" in the most annoyingly heroic voice you can think of.  (Anyone on the Mutants and Masterminds forums back in the early 2000's would probably recognize him; Geoff used to post there a lot.)

 

 

[Gauntlet]

18 hours ago, Trencher said:

Clown exist only for one reason and that is to p**s on the players. Its a GM tool to either make them feel stupid for failing to defeat them or making them feel bad about killing half of them if you do defeat them. That is how they are designed. Glass cannons that can whallop regular PC's but die almost instantly if they are hit with big attacks. There are exceptions but that only makes it more annoying. 

 

Don't agree with that. I have found that someone who utilized an individual villain or a villain team js for the purpose of pissing off the players is just a bad GM. And as for pretty much all of the villains that are standard and individuals usually are easy to knock out. Whenever I run Champions I have to increase most of the villains I use. They have a tendency of having an average defense of around or even under 20 and many who are considered to be incredibly defended might have 25.

[Trencher]

3 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

Don't agree with that. I have found that someone who utilized an individual villain or a villain team js for the purpose of pissing off the players is just a bad GM. And as for pretty much all of the villains that are standard and individuals usually are easy to knock out. Whenever I run Champions I have to increase most of the villains I use. They have a tendency of having an average defense of around or even under 20 and many who are considered to be incredibly defended might have 25.

Well if you modify Clown to have better defenses atleast the players dont have to feel like murderers for fighting them. 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

3 hours ago, Trencher said:

Well if you modify Clown to have better defenses atleast the players dont have to feel like murderers for fighting them. 

 

Not to defend Clown specifically, but the possibility of challenges that cannot be resolved by violence seems quite appropriate for most games, especially Supers games.

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Not to defend Clown

 

Good.  I won't hear of it!

 

 

 

in all seriousness, though:  I won"t defend CLOWN.  I can't defend CLOWN, because they are presented not as a problem to solve or an organization with a goal- good or ill- but as nothing but something unpleasant to endure and to take the character you have worked hard on creating and playing into a credible part of the story make him look ridiculous.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

specifically, but the possibility of challenges that cannot be resolved by violence seems quite appropriate for most games, especially Supers games.

 

Absolutely agreed.

 

Better: you don't need a Gilt Complex situation to tie a character's hands or to make him vulnerable or to shake his (or the public's) faith in him.  There are already classic tropes:  to the west is disaster A; to the east is Disaster B.  Which one will you avert, Hero?  Who will live, and who will die?

 

if you raise your hand against us, then this busload of baby nuns will die!!!  Wait... What-?  Oh you've got to be-- never mind; I can save this...  This busload of penguins will die!

 

Or to make him look bad:

 

If you do not rip the doors off the bank vault at precisely 2 PM Sunday afternoon, this busload of penguins will be dropped from the sky onto herd of nuns!  What?  Seriously?  Why don't you screen for this stuff?  Okay; I can work with it--

 

Onto a beach filled with rental umbrellas......

 

 

And any of these options work better because even though the hero is under the same pressure:  I will come off as a heel in some way no matter what-- there is still opportunity for role play (as he wrestles with the decision), for heroics (no matter east or west, he is going to save someone, and of course, the public will be aware that he did all he could, even if some are angry, others will understand), and to apprehend the villains (you know, I kind of enjoyed riping opwn that bank!  Where's my cut, and when can we do it again?

 

And after another job or two, he has been able to learn the hostages location, make plans with outside assistance (you know- the other players, who have tipped off the police or whoever about what's going on (or whatever is appropriate to your universe), then on the fourth or fifth job- the hostages are reduced, the loot is recovered, the organization is exposed--

 

The character is a hero again, though he may have to work a bit to convince _everyone_ (even though Little Timmy comes forward out of the crowd, hugs his leg, and cries "I never doubted you, Captain Awesome!  Not for a minute!"

 

 

All of these achieve the same results of making the HERO look briefly weak or incompetent or vulnerable, but they do so in a way that is _human_, rather than just pointlessly embarassing him.  They leave the opportunity to bear up under pressure and scrutiny without resulting to ridicule or pointless shaming or dirty-laundry tactics, and the leave the character the opportunity to redeem himself without having to deal with his "private home videos"  being up on the internet or random callbacks to his humiliation:  "Hey, Captain Awesome!  How'd you get that thing so far up there, anyway?"  or being doxed or whatever it is the kids are doing these days.

 

And when he tackles the villains behind it, he doesnt have to worry about them not being what he thinks they are: it doesnt take a handful of brittle miscreants goading him into a power suplex to create the effects that CLOWN strives to create.

 

 

As for the membership:

 

Let's also remember that it is really only the Main Three members that are truly breakable, though their most-common fourth isnt really Timex quality, either.  (If You got that one, you're old)

 

There are other members- ancillaries amd reservists alike- who are more soundly built for a thrashing, even if it is a gentle one

 

(and honestly, if your heroes are tackling every new opponent by opening with their most brutal Haymaker, well...  Look; there is no "wrong way" to play, but if that is the style your group prefers, then the GM should build opponents accordingly- at least make them as tough as they look, etc.  CLOWN is off the table for such a group anyway)

 

But there are a few of the Irregulars-  Tag and the Power Armor guy come to mind-  who, as a team that is _NOT_ CLOWN, could be cobbled into reasonable adversaries, though their entire personalities and motives would have to be rewritten from the ground up to get rid of that ludicrous CLOWN stuff.  Make them straight up thugs or theives or mercenaries or whatever, and they are usable characters.

 

Maybe leave CLOWN itself as some sort of lunatic fringe arm,of Greenpeace or something.

 

 

Edited February 4 by Duke Bushido

[Lord Liaden]

9 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

Don't agree with that. I have found that someone who utilized an individual villain or a villain team js for the purpose of pissing off the players is just a bad GM. And as for pretty much all of the villains that are standard and individuals usually are easy to knock out. Whenever I run Champions I have to increase most of the villains I use. They have a tendency of having an average defense of around or even under 20 and many who are considered to be incredibly defended might have 25.

 

Duke Bushido answered this point in general above with great eloquence, so I've nothing to add there. I will just point out that the issue with CLOWN is not that a bad GM would use them for the purpose of pissing off the players. It's that the creator(s) of CLOWN wrote them to be used to piss off the players.

Edited February 4 by Lord Liaden

[Duke Bushido]

 

Quoted only to point out that my thanks was not for the complement, but this part here:

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

.I will just point out that the issue with CLOWN is not that a bad GM would use them for the purpose of pissing off the players. It's that the creator(s) of CLOWN wrote them to be used to piss off the players.

 

 

That is the most concise distillation possible of the problem with CLOWN.

 

Well, and SHIELD, the Clown Car.

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

The CLOWN car is actually named, "TeeHee." Adding insult to injury.

Edited February 4 by Lord Liaden

[Duke Bushido]

6 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

The CLOWN car is actually named, "TeeHee." Adding insult to injury.

 

 

Yep.

 

Mentioned that in my initial rant.  It bugs me because-- while all xomic acronyms are sone on purpose, "SHIELD" and "TEEHEE" both suffer from the problem of the abaokutely tortuous mangling of the language to force a specific acronym.  It rankles the writer in me.

 

Though my favorite, from Captain Carrot, was A Certain Really Ominous Secret Throng Inevitably Christened-  this _was_ funny, since the intentional acrostic was-- well, you can all read, but the poking fun at the convention was quite nice.

 

 

Edited February 5 by Duke Bushido

[Chris Goodwin]

57 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Though my favorite, from Captain Carrot, was A Certain Really Ominous Secret Throng Inevitably Christened-  this _was_ funny, since the intentional acrostic was-- well, you can all read, but the poking fun at the xinvention was quite nice.

 

My favorite was League Of Villainous Evildoers Maniacally United For Frightening Investments In Naughtiness.  (From Phineas and Ferb.)

[bluesguy]

I created a version of Batrock the Leaper (Marvel). He and his mercenaries were trying to steal hundreds of pounds of gold doubloons from a museum.  His speed, DCV, and movement were much faster than players.  He was just about out the door when I decided he would give the female heroes a kiss before leaving the museum.  In the end of the female heroes picked up something big and heavy and threw it at him, nailing the megahex he was in.  He was a bit smashed after that.

[Lord Liaden]

23 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

Yep.

 

Mentioned that in my initial rant.  It bugs me because-- while all xomic acronyms are sone on purpose, "SHIELD" and "TEEHEE" both suffer from the problem of the abaokutely tortuous mangling of the language to force a specific acronym.  It rankles the writer in me.

 

Though my favorite, from Captain Carrot, was A Certain Really Ominous Secret Throng Inevitably Christened-  this _was_ funny, since the intentional acrostic was-- well, you can all read, but the poking fun at the convention was quite nice.

 

 

 

United Network Command for Law and Enforcement: Man from UNCLE

 

The Higher United Nations Defense Enforcement Reserves: THUNDER Agents

 

Supreme Headquarters Alien Defence Organisation: SHADO (UFO television series)

 

It may rankle, Duke, but as long as super-agencies have existed in pop culture, convoluted agency names to make catchy acronyms have been as much a genre convention as grey-bearded wizards for fantasy, indestructible spandex for superheroes, and catgirls for manga/anime.

[Gauntlet]

Most annoying villain I have found to run has been Firewing. He is powerful but really doesn't have a real reason to be a villain. It seems to me based on his writeup he doesn't have much of a personality.

[BoloOfEarth]

On 2/4/2024 at 5:22 PM, Duke Bushido said:

Mentioned that in my initial rant.  It bugs me because-- while all xomic acronyms are sone on purpose, "SHIELD" and "TEEHEE" both suffer from the problem of the abaokutely tortuous mangling of the language to force a specific acronym.  It rankles the writer in me.

 

For SHIELD, I had to appreciate what they did in the pilot for Agents of SHIELD:

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

He's in the Destroyer category:

 

The early,auccess of Champions caught the writers off guard:

 

People want villains!  Quick!  Let's make some villains!

 

You will find varying levels of shallow to a lot of the legacy villains, though the popular ones get a little with each rewrite.  A lot,of the older guys have Lex Luthor motivations and Dr. Destroyer depth.

 

 

2 minutes ago, BoloOfEarth said:

 

For SHIELD, I had to appreciate what they did in the pilot for Agents of SHIELD:

 

 

That was the gag I was rferencing with "SHIELD the Clown Car" above.  Thank you for the clarification, though.

 

They must have done it in one of the movies as well, as I have never even heard of the show, but I saw the gag.

 

Or maybe it was in one of the Transformers movies,...

 

 

[Gauntlet]

41 minutes ago, BoloOfEarth said:

 

For SHIELD, I had to appreciate what they did in the pilot for Agents of SHIELD:

 

 

 

Can't tell if you are totally stating what was said in the show, or making it up. Considering that series, you probably were stating exactly what was said.😉

[Lord Liaden]

I saw the show, that was exactly what was said.

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Gauntlet said:

Most annoying villain I have found to run has been Firewing. He is powerful but really doesn't have a real reason to be a villain. It seems to me based on his writeup he doesn't have much of a personality.

 

Firewing's obsession with great victories in honorable combat is really just an excuse to have a big super battle. There's no need to rationalize why a battle would break out, Firewing just showing up probably means one will.

 

For my own use of Firewing, I gradually transitioned him toward the motivation of the Firewing from the year 3000 written up in Galactic Champions: to reignite the passion and ambition that once burned in the Malvan race, and lead them to again become the dominant power in the galaxy. PCs encountering Firewing along that path can be drawn after him out to the stars, and become enmeshed in determining the fate of worlds.

Edited February 5 by Lord Liaden

[Gauntlet]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Firewing's obsession with great victories in honorable combat is really just an excuse to have a big super battle. There's no need to rationalize why a battle would break out, Firewing just showing up probably means one will.

 

For my own use of Firewing, I gradually transitioned him toward the motivation of the Firewing from the year 3000 written up in Galactic Champions: to reignite the passion and ambition that once burned in the Malvan race, and lead them to again become the dominant power in the galaxy. PCs encountering Firewing along that path can be drawn after him out to the stars, and become enmeshed in determining the fate of worlds.

 

See, that is something that makes sense.

[DShomshak]

My old change-of-pace, pick-up or fill-in) campaign had the heroes of UNICoRN, the United Nations International Criminology Resource Network -- a small back office in the U. N. with a phone and lists of heroes who were willing to work for cheap and a chance to travel, sending heroes to Third World locations that didn't have heroes of their own. These tended to be less-than-serious heroes such as Insectomorph (who activated different powersets by eating bugs), American Ninja (red, white and blue night-suit), or the Mad Piper of Inverness (sonic powers from a high-tech bagpipe). Their opponents tended to similar character. At one point, several villains they defeated teamed up to seek revenge as CAToBLEPS: Criminal Alliance To Beat Law Enforcement Personnel Soundly.

 

In my current campaign... hm. there aren't many acronymic groups, though some put their names in all caps because they think it looks impressive. Notable example being the obligatory Hydra homage, CROWN ("Every man king by his own hand"). Agents sometimes try to think up cool acronyms. Heroes devise insulting ones such as Completely Ridiculous Organization of Wannabe Nazis.

 

Dean Shomshak

Edited February 6 by DShomshak

[Lord Liaden]

UNICoRN I could swallow, but CAToBLEPS would be pushing it.