Attacking at the beginning of a phase

[sevrick]

Would it break the game if I allowed my players and enemies to attack at anytime they wish during there phase rather than forcing them to attack at the end. I wasn't sure why this is a rule.

[Hugh Neilson]

This would make a better Discussion Board question - this forum has very few people who can post responses, and is aimed at "what the rules say", not "how we might vary the rules".  Maybe a moderator can move it.

[sevrick]

Yeah sounds good. That's weird I could have sworn I posted in the rules question area.

[Doc Democracy]

Really, the only way to judge that would be to play it and see what you think.  If you allow it, you might see people take bigger movements, allowing them to dive in, hit and move away (possibly into cover) with no ability of the person attacked to intervene.

 

The rules as written mean that if you run in and hit someone then you will have to be there to take the consequences of that melee attack.

[LoneWolf]

It would give a huge advantage to faster characters as it would allow them to move attack and move again.   Someone with a higher SPD and good movement would be able to keep out of reach when it is not their phase.  This can be done somewhat with the current rules, but it is limited to specific maneuvers or requires a lot more movement.  Normally if you want to attack and continue moving you use a move through or purchase a martial maneuver with the Fmove element.  Move By cannot be combined with other maneuvers and you only get ½ STR for damage.  

It would also allow ranged characters to avoid exposing themselves by being behind something and only being able to be attacked when they are actually attacking.  Just hide behind something and when your phase comes up move out from behind cover, attack and then move back behind the cover.   Currently doing this requires using the Snap Shot maneuver which is a full phase action so you cannot move, and you take a penalty to OCV.  Even with Snap Shot you are still exposed during the phase you attacked and can duck back on the next segment on the DEX he attacked at.  This change would mean the character move a few hexes, attack, and move back behind cover.  He takes no penalty to OCV and is only exposed when he is attacking.  

Those are just two examples off the top of my head of problems it could cause.  I am sure that this would probably also cause other issue.  So, yea it kind of would break the game, or at least alter the balance of the game and have a lot of unforeseen consequences.  At minimum movement and SPD will become more valuable and combat will last a lot longer.  
 

[Tom Cowan]

looks like you are going to see a more fluid battle field where cover and running speed is king as people move back in to cover after attacking 

[tombrown803]

I think this has been discussed before. Might want to do some searching in old threads for a more indepth discussion

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

There are Hero-specific issues as well.  Say you have a multipower with high defenses and attacks in it.  at the beginning of your phase, you turn off your defenses slot and turn on your big attack slot.  You attack.  Then you turn on your high defenses slot.  Like a mask and unmask attack: hiding behind something, popping out and firing, then ducking back.

 

The problem is that you have effectively negated much of the limitations of a multipower, which is why it costs less to have all those powers.

[Doc Democracy]

Yeah, it makes the be desolid, become solid, attack, then go desolid again an arguable linked case - if you can travel after attacking, then why not use other powers like desolid.

 

 

[Gauntlet]

Plus in some respects there are already ways to do that. A lot of times people forget that they do not have to go exactly in the phases listed by your speed. Hold for a moment to a phase one phase before your next phase to make your action, you then immediately get to act again. This in many cases will allow you to move, attack, and move away, especially if you have a higher DEX and be even easier if you have higher SPD.

[LoneWolf]

3 hours ago, sevrick said:

Yeah sounds good. That's weird I could have sworn I posted in the rules question area.

 

From the looks of it you did.  What Hugh is trying to say is that the Rules Question area is the wrong forum for this type of thing.  As he mention very few people can respond there, and all you will get is an answer on how the rule works.  You already know how the rule works and it looks like you want a discussion and feedback from others.  

[Doc Democracy]

2 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

Hold for a moment to a phase one phase before your next phase to make your action, you then immediately get to act again.

 

This demonstrates a problem we all gave, mixing up phases and segments. 😁

 

The point however is absolutely spot on, just because you are SPD 4 dies not mean you always go on segments 3,6,9 and 12. You could quite easily go on 5,6,11 and 12 or 3,8,9 and 12.

 

Just doing this kind of thinking mixes up what you do in a round.

 

 

Doc

[Gauntlet]

53 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

Just doing this kind of thinking mixes up what you do in a round.

 

It definitely gives you a ton of more options you can utilize. One of the great things of Hero verse D&D (at least for me) is that you don't just go, I attack, you attack, I attack, you attack, I attack, you attack, and on and on and on.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Yeah, it makes the be desolid, become solid, attack, then go desolid again an arguable linked case

 

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, it would force people to hold and attack the enemy when they get an opportunity instead of more like taking turns.  But it would require careful watch on how long actions take and so on.  And from many a brain-aching night of playing Magic The Gathering on when things take place in what order and in what speed, this can be a bit more of a pain than is worth what you gain from it.

[Gauntlet]

Definitely something that would only be utilized by advanced players.

[LoneWolf]

1 hour ago, Gauntlet said:

Definitely something that would only be utilized by advanced players.

 

Advanced player can already do a lot of this by holding actions like you suggested earlier or purchasing specific powers and skills.  

 

A beginning player thinks a high DEX means you go first, an advanced player realizes that a high DEX allow you to choose when you go.   
 

Edited October 16, 2023 by LoneWolf

[sevrick]

Thx for the feed back. It sounds like It's a rule that could be exploited. Things that you can do in other systems doesn't translate very well since you can tweak almost any aspect of your character like movement speed, something that is usually fixed. I like the idea of holding your action. It just seemed that forcing the Player to attack as the last thing he did was kind of gamey. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by sevrick

[LoneWolf]

All game systems abstract combat to one degree or another.  Hero System actually does this less than most other systems.  Keep in mind that a segment in Hero System is 1 second, and a turn is 12 seconds.  Most other games have longer time divisions so that leads to you being able to do more things in your action.   In Pathfinder a round is 6 seconds in which each character gets to act once.  In Hero System a character might be able to act anywhere between 1-4 times.  

 

Holding actions too me seems more realistic than trading of acting like seesaw.  In the real world people wait for or try to create an opening instead of standing there trading blows.  It allows for things like follow up attacks where the first attack is designed to put the character at a disadvantage so the next attack can take them down.   That is a lot more difficult to achieve in other system than it is in Hero System. 

 

The downside of this is that the Hero System has more complexity so often new players have trouble figuring out how to pull of what they are trying to do.     

[unclevlad]

It is game-y, but it's the simpler approach based on the phased combat system.  The goal is to avoid a largely untouchable character.  All it can take...nothing fancy...just a fair bit of combat move can do it.

[Hugh Neilson]

On 10/16/2023 at 6:55 AM, Doc Democracy said:

Really, the only way to judge that would be to play it and see what you think.  If you allow it, you might see people take bigger movements, allowing them to dive in, hit and move away (possibly into cover) with no ability of the person attacked to intervene.

 

The rules as written mean that if you run in and hit someone then you will have to be there to take the consequences of that melee attack.

 

I'm not sure if the question was

 

should the character be allowed to move a "quarter-move", then attack, then do another "quarter move" ?

 

or

 

should the character be able to attack and then move, rather than move and then attack?

 

The two questions are pretty different.  At one time, there was an optional (maybe even "beyond the rule books, from a Hero mailout optional) Strafe maneuver to allow a ranged attack during movement much like a move by.

 

On 10/16/2023 at 8:35 AM, Christopher R Taylor said:

There are Hero-specific issues as well.  Say you have a multipower with high defenses and attacks in it.  at the beginning of your phase, you turn off your defenses slot and turn on your big attack slot.  You attack.  Then you turn on your high defenses slot.  Like a mask and unmask attack: hiding behind something, popping out and firing, then ducking back.

 

The problem is that you have effectively negated much of the limitations of a multipower, which is why it costs less to have all those powers.

 

On 10/16/2023 at 8:38 AM, Doc Democracy said:

Yeah, it makes the be desolid, become solid, attack, then go desolid again an arguable linked case - if you can travel after attacking, then why not use other powers like desolid.

 

 

 

First, who says that you can reallocate your Multipower more than once in one phase?  Or turn the same power on and off in the same phase?  But I can simulate a lot of that now.  SPD 6?  Delay to the lowest possible negative DEX on Segment 5.  Shift Multipower out of defenses into attacks (or become solid) and attack. Wait for my DEX on segment 6 and go back to defenses/Desolid (or just Abort my Phase 6 action to go defensive).

 

d20 felt very "Hero" when it went to a move action and a standard action.  It did not break because someone could attack first and then move. Hero wouldn't either.  I'm sure I've played some games where we allowed that.

[Gauntlet]

Problem is when you do a system that allows to attack then more it means that anyone who is not fast becomes completely useless. Goodby most bricks in Champions games.

[unclevlad]

49 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

At one time, there was an optional (maybe even "beyond the rule books, from a Hero mailout optional) Strafe maneuver to allow a ranged attack during movement much like a move by.

 

6E2 page 88.  Several conditions, and a strong advisory to use this for cinematic effect, not as a tactical move allowing the flier or runner to make an attack with little or no range mod, while ending up OUT of range.  The attacker plots his full move;  he can make his attack at any point in the attack.

 

It even allows strafing runs at non-combat speeds, altho not when using Megascale.  Of course, your OCV drops to 0 because of that...THEN you have OCV penalty (v/6) AND the range mod.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

First, who says that you can reallocate your Multipower more than once in one phase?  Or turn the same power on and off in the same phase? 

 

Well, here's what the rules say:

 

Quote

A character can change the way his Multipower reserve points are distributed or allocated as a Zero Phase Action. However, unless the GM permits otherwise, he may not distribute or allocate reserve points more than once in a Phase.

 

Now, I have never run it that way, I've always allowed changing powers in a multipower at will on your own phase, without any particular negative results, but this would be one way of limiting the problems of being able to act after attacking.

[Grailknight]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Well, here's what the rules say:

 

 

Now, I have never run it that way, I've always allowed changing powers in a multipower at will on your own phase, without any particular negative results, but this would be one way of limiting the problems of being able to act after attacking.

 

That would allow you to use an attack and then switch to defenses though. That's one the single change is there to prevent.

 

[Gauntlet]

Heck, if you are allowing multipowers to be changed multiple times in a phase then what is the point of not purchasing any powers that are not in a multipower. By having it that way, you could move, attack, and then bring up your total defenses, all in the same phase and all from the same multipower. So instead of paying 60 points for that 60 hex flight, plus 60 points for that 12d6 Blast, plus 60 points for that 20 PD 20 ED Resistant Protection, for a total of 180 points you only have to pay 78 points for the exact same effect with the following multipower:
 

Cost   Powers

60      Multipower, 60-point reserve                                                      

6f       1)  Resistant Protection (20 PD/20 ED) (60 Active Points)

6f       2)  Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points)

6f       3)  Flight 60m (60 Active Points)

 

That's one hell of a savings. Definitely no point in purchasing the powers individually.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Gauntlet
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