Attacking at the beginning of a phase

[Hugh Neilson]

11 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

Problem is when you do a system that allows to attack then more it means that anyone who is not fast becomes completely useless. Goodby most bricks in Champions games.

 

Viewed another way, it allows movement to be used tactically.  Movement also cost points.  As well, I would stick to move by and strafe if you want to attack during a move.  Failing that, if you attack and then move. you will have to close in to attack next phase, assuming your goal was to win the battle, not cut and run.

 

8 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Well, here's what the rules say:

 

 

Now, I have never run it that way, I've always allowed changing powers in a multipower at will on your own phase, without any particular negative results, but this would be one way of limiting the problems of being able to act after attacking.

 

So perhaps the problem is not whether we allow attacking first and then moving, but your choice to depart from the guidance of the rules and allow the multipower to be reallocated without restriction.

 

5 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

That would allow you to use an attack and then switch to defenses though. That's one the single change is there to prevent.

 

 

So, assuming I started with all MP points allocated to an attack, I attack, shift to defenses and/or move away.  Next phase, I need to move back in and reallocate my points to attack, then attack.  Now my MP is allocated away from defenses and I am in close range.  Good strategy?

I could also simulate this now by delaying to the very end of a segment, reassigning the MP and closing in to attack, then Aborting to switch back to defenses (and even diving for cover) at the start of the next segment, or in response to anyone targeting me.  Either way, this is holding me down to attacking every other phase.

 

I ran a villain some years back with massive running, reliant on movebys.  He zipped in, attacked and zipped out, frustrating the Brick immensely.  Until he held his phase to attack when the speedster darted in.  The speedster ended up out of the Brick's range anyway thanks to knockback, but he also took a lot of Stun in the process.  His next action also involved a full move...but no Move By, as he didn't think sticking around with 3 STUN was his best tactical choice.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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So perhaps the problem is not whether we allow attacking first and then moving, but your choice to depart from the guidance of the rules and allow the multipower to be reallocated without restriction.

 

Or as Grailknight pointed out:

 

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That would allow you to use an attack and then switch to defenses though

 

which means it doesn't matter how you run things, it still poses a concern.

 

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you only have to pay 78 points for the exact same effect with the following multipower

 

Except you can only use them one at a time anyway.  You cannot fly and blast, you cannot defend yourself and attack.  You can rapidly switch, but you're still vulnerable or not flying or not blasting at the same time.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[unclevlad]

You wouldn't be able to remain aloft, but the point you're making holds...buy the attacks and defenses in the framework, at least.  

 

It is risky to do this in that all-out manner, as an opponent holding action could arguably really mess up your day...but hey, that's just a quick and dirty MP, I expect, and with a bit of consideration, it could be tweaked readily enough to make the vulnerability less extreme.

 

14 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Now, I have never run it that way, I've always allowed changing powers in a multipower at will on your own phase, without any particular negative results, but this would be one way of limiting the problems of being able to act after attacking.

 

A technical point here:  by RAW, when you attack, that's a terminating action and your phase is over.  Allowing multiple MP reallocations on your phase would still allow the MP that's got movement and defenses together;  start of phase, activate movement, make the half move, activate defenses, attack.  If attacking doesn't terminate your actions, that's when you create the problem with overlapping your attacks and defenses.

 

 

[Gauntlet]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Except you can only use them one at a time anyway.  You cannot fly and blast, you cannot defend yourself and attack.  You can rapidly switch, but you're still vulnerable or not flying or not blasting at the same time.

 

Only if they are holding action to attack you. If they are not, you get to fly to where you want, attack them, and have all your defenses up right at the same time. Really no difference then if you bought all the powers outside of a multipower.

[Simon]

OK...I've been trying to ignore this, but I can't anymore.

 

1. A character can allocate points in their Multipower once per Phase.

 

2. Allocating points in an MP is a Zero Phase action.  It can be performed at the beginning of a character's Phase, or after a Half Phase Action, but not after making an Attack.

 

I'll save my thoughts on how badly "Attack Action doesn't end a character's Phase" breaks other rules and dynamics in the HERO System...

[unclevlad]

9 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

 

Only if they are holding action to attack you. If they are not, you get to fly to where you want, attack them, and have all your defenses up right at the same time. Really no difference then if you bought all the powers outside of a multipower.

 

Right, and when you're new...that'd be a reach, that they'd realize what's happening.  As time goes on, tho, it should become apparent that this is happening, and opponents should realize it, and start to plan for it.  Opponents shouldn't remain ignorant forever.  And, no, there's no explicit clue you're switching, I'll grant, but hero types get watched very closely.  Someone's gonna eventually go....hmmmmmmmmmmm...........  Think overall narrative, rather than pure rules.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Only if they are holding action to attack you. If they are not, you get to fly to where you want, attack them, and have all your defenses up right at the same time. Really no difference then if you bought all the powers outside of a multipower.

 

But there is an area in which you are not flying, not attacking, and not using your defenses.  You cannot fly around shooting targets, or you start to fall out of the air.  If you had them outside a multipower, you can fly and attack.  You cannot have your defenses up while you attack, leaving you vulnerable to anyone who has held their phase or acts at the same DEX rank as you.  It is limited, just not as much as by the rules.  Like I said, it never has been a problem in the past, but perhaps nobody took advantage of it.  I never insisted anyone should do this or that its by the rules.  I just mentioned that in my campaigns over 30 years it never was an issue.

 

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OK...I've been trying to ignore this, but I can't anymore.

 

I mean, I literally posted that yesterday.

[Simon]

4 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I mean, I literally posted that yesterday.

I know, but no one seems to be paying attention.

[unclevlad]

And we get that.

 

OP was suggesting a change to RAW, and asking what the problems would be.  The entire discussion is based on various hypothetical adjustments.

[Gauntlet]

40 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

But there is an area in which you are not flying, not attacking, and not using your defenses.  You cannot fly around shooting targets, or you start to fall out of the air.  If you had them outside a multipower, you can fly and attack.  You cannot have your defenses up while you attack, leaving you vulnerable to anyone who has held their phase or acts at the same DEX rank as you.  It is limited, just not as much as by the rules.  Like I said, it never has been a problem in the past, but perhaps nobody took advantage of it.  I never insisted anyone should do this or that its by the rules.  I just mentioned that in my campaigns over 30 years it never was an issue.

 

I apologize if I am coming out as making my argument personal. I was just saying how I felt was the best way to do things. If your players are having fun, that's the important thing.

[unclevlad]

44 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

 

I apologize if I am coming out as making my argument personal. I was just saying how I felt was the best way to do things. If your players are having fun, that's the important thing.

 

I figure you just tossed that MP out off the top of your head.  As it is, it has some issues.  That said, a more layered approach fixes most of the problems, while still offering massive point savings...if multiple reallocations were allowed.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I do think its good to have more discussion of the pros and cons of allowing action after an attack, though.  It would change some fundamental things about how Hero combat feels and moves, but would it be necessarily bad?  It definitely would be a bit more complicated.

[Hugh Neilson]

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

But there is an area in which you are not flying, not attacking, and not using your defenses.  You cannot fly around shooting targets, or you start to fall out of the air.  If you had them outside a multipower, you can fly and attack.  You cannot have your defenses up while you attack, leaving you vulnerable to anyone who has held their phase or acts at the same DEX rank as you.  It is limited, just not as much as by the rules.  Like I said, it never has been a problem in the past, but perhaps nobody took advantage of it.  I never insisted anyone should do this or that its by the rules.  I just mentioned that in my campaigns over 30 years it never was an issue.

 

 

If you let me switch MP points as often as I like in a phase, then I can always buy 1 meter of Flight outside the Multipower to remain in the air, even if I don't just land.

 

6 PSLs against Range is an amazingly potent ability for a flying blaster to deal with a Brick.  Half move, some up and some over, and blast. It doesn't need a multipower or any ability to attack first and take my other half phase later.

[Pattern Ghost]

A few thoughts:

 

Players will build around such a change (plenty of examples in this thread), and conversely so you will as GM. This might  not be a big deal if you write up all of your own NPCs, but you might have to re-write published characters you want to use.

 

You'll probably see characters burning more END, so you'll want to track that carefully.

 

If you implement it, I'd do some dry run combats with your group's characters first, and let them go back and adjust their characters based on what works/doesn't under the house rule.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I have been pondering this a while and have come to the conclusion that if you add this into the game, it changes so much about when people take what actions in what order that it creates the need for a long and complex list of rules that have to be added to the way combat works.  I understand that if you do it simply it works well and easily -- Savage Worlds allows this for example, because it is a super, super simple combat system.  But with the flexibility of Hero and the combat maneuvers and the speed chart and DEX rank and all the rest, it becomes much more complex.

 

It starts to become, as I noted above, a system of who goes in what order, and how do you determine who interrupts what action and when do you move and how far, and what facing you have.  Which appeals to me in one sense -- it makes combat more dynamic and allows a lot of interesting things to be added in like bonking someone to stop them from doing something -- but it also would slow down combat massively, add another book of rules, and make things a lot less free wheeling and fun.

 

I played Aces & Eights, an award winning system.  They had some neat ideas like the shot clock and adding poker cards into the game and so on.  They break down combat into 1/10th second intervals in which you basically write down what you intend to do like Magic Realm, and then the clock very slowly unwinds as everyone tries to execute their actions at the same time.  This all sounds brilliant on paper but is  virtually unplayable in actual practice, and took freaking ages for a short gunfight.  The whole timing of events thing is a source of continual fighting, rule changing and frustration in games like Magic: the Gathering.

 

So, basically while it sounds kind of harmless I think it would avoid it.

 

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[Gauntlet]

5 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

So, basically while it sounds kind of harmless I think it would avoid it.

 

I definitely have to agree with you, especially how short the Phases are in Hero.

[Hugh Neilson]

We've played with attacking not ending a phase.  It did not change much.  Take that as one experience only - our group has never focused on eking every last bit of effectiveness and efficiency out of every character point and every phase, so a group more focused on that efficiency could find ways to create more issues. As well, there is already some "analysis paralysis" in many Hero games, especially with newer players, and having more options will only increase that.

 

As has already been highlighted above, how tightly you stick to existing rules about things you can only do once per phase, like reassign multipower pools and skill levels, could have an impact.

 

You could also add a rule that some of these zero phase reallocation "actions" cannot be performed after an attack, or perhaps once you have used the points allocated to an attack or to OCV/damage.  That is, once you use a level in an attack (OCV or damage), it's gone until the start of your next phase (unless you abort) and once you use Pool points (Multipower or VPP), they are similarly locked until the start of your next phase.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Hugh Neilson

[pawsplay]

To me it's less a matter of balance, than of how characters will always be moving away from each other during battle. It produces oddities like characters winding up for a haymaker, suffering reduced DCV, and immediately moving away.

[Hugh Neilson]

2 hours ago, pawsplay said:

To me it's less a matter of balance, than of how characters will always be moving away from each other during battle. It produces oddities like characters winding up for a haymaker, suffering reduced DCV, and immediately moving away.

 

I rarely see Haymakers in general, and I'm not sure why anyone would start a Haymaker and then disrupt it themselves by moving away.

If you attack, then move away, I will likely ignore you in my next phase and focus on whatever I was trying to accomplish before I was so rudely interrupted, combine with a teammate to take down one of your teammates, or move even further away from you, depending on my objectives. Maybe I'll set up a barrier or other impediment to prevent your speedy return, or duck into an alleyway (and flee?  wait in ambush? guess you will have to come back to find out). Note that, if you half moved away, and I half move further away, you will need a full phase to close in again.

 

Why do you assume that my only goal in life is to close in and attack you?

 

If anything, I think enhancing dynamic combat with people moving around would be a benefit of changing this rule, not a drawback.

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Hugh Neilson

[pawsplay]

I'm not talking about disrupting the Haymaker. I'm saying, if you can move after attacking, you can complete the Haymaker, then dart away.

 

I don't see the benefit of characters running up, attacking each other, then retreating throughout combat. Of course, if everyone does it, it largely neutralizes any advantage, except in the occasional situation where it isn't feasible for someone to move in that way. It's tactically shallow, I don't see that it adds anything except quirkiness.

[Hugh Neilson]

1 hour ago, pawsplay said:

I don't see the benefit of characters running up, attacking each other, then retreating throughout combat.

 

If a character can move after attacking, it does not allow a half move to close, a half move to attack and a half move to retreat - the character still only has two half phases. They just gain the option of attacking before, rather than after, moving.

 

This is not far off the d20 model.

 

One move and one standard action, or one full round/full phase action.  Free/zero phase actions.  No swift or immediate actions, and d20 has no Aborts.

 

If the concept is that attacks can be performed during movement,that would be a further change to the dynamic.  Going back to the original post it's not clear which was suggested. I read "attack first. move after" rather than "attack during movement" mainly due to familiarity with maneuvers like move through and move by.

[Gauntlet]

I have noticed that allowing characters to attack and then perform another act such as moving made faster characters almost unbeatable, at least verse HTH opponents. Faster martial artist attacks the brick and moves away, now the brick has no attack and has to make a full move if he wants to attack via HTH. Ranged combat characters don't have as much of a problem but it still could happy by attacking and then moving to cover so you cannot be attacked. Also, is it truly required? Maybe it would be if all characters could only maneuver during their phase, but you don't have to do that and can pretty much go in any phase you want.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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We've played with attacking not ending a phase.  It did not change much. 

 

Yeah, if you don't have super tactical, smart players who try to maximize everything, you can probably get away with the change and not much will be different -- although as usual probably things would come up nobody has thought of yet.

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I'm saying, if you can move after attacking, you can complete the Haymaker, then dart away.

 

Not under the rules.  It lands the segment after the phase you attacked on.  Unless you have a held half phase you cannot then move, because your phase is over and the only thing you can do off your phase is abort to a defensive act.

[Gauntlet]

6 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Yeah, if you don't have super tactical, smart players who try to maximize everything, you can probably get away with the change and not much will be different -- although as usual probably things would come up nobody has thought of yet.

 

Not under the rules.  It lands the segment after the phase you attacked on.  Unless you have a held half phase you cannot then move, because your phase is over and the only thing you can do off your phase is abort to a defensive act.

 

And I believe it actually says that Haymaker happens at the end of the next phase, not based on your DEX.

[Hugh Neilson]

2 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

I have noticed that allowing characters to attack and then perform another act such as moving made faster characters almost unbeatable, at least verse HTH opponents. Faster martial artist attacks the brick and moves away, now the brick has no attack and has to make a full move if he wants to attack via HTH.

 

Or the Brick ignores the martial artist and goes and attacks someone within a half move range.  Or he leaves - why does he have to beat up the martial Artist? Or he delays until that Martial Artist moves back into HTH range. Then he attacks and backs away, so the MA has to use his next half phase to close in if he wants to attack. He could just walk behind cover and wait for the MA to come to him not knowing exactly where he is.

 

2 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

Ranged combat characters don't have as much of a problem but it still could happy by attacking and then moving to cover so you cannot be attacked.

 

Assuming that the opponent's sole objective in life is to beat up the Blaster. Maybe he just lets the fellow hide.  He'll have to come out next phase if he wants to attack. 

 

Maybe toss up a Barrier so that runaway can't rejoin the fight easily and beat up his teammates while they are down a combatant.