Power Builds and Custom Adders

[Sketchpad]

Hello Herodom! I took a look around after not really being satisfied with the Omega Beams presented in Champions Powers, and was specifically looking for something akin to Homing. After looking at the responses, I was curious about what other custom adders folks may have used in the past. Did you have a power where you had to create an adder? If so, what was it and how did it work?

[Stanley Teriaca]

Ok. How does Homing work?

[Sketchpad]

2 hours ago, Stanley Teriaca said:

Ok. How does Homing work?

 

If you click on the link in the OP, you'll see the older discussion.

[Stanley Teriaca]

Ah. My take would be an automatic hit attack. Basically putting the defense upon the target...they have to make a DCV roll vs ACV of the attacker or get hit. As opposed to rolling a ACB vs DCV which is normal.

[Gauntlet]

In a Robot Warriors game I once ran, I had Homing Missiles. They were purchased as another vehicle that flied and tried to hit the target and of course had a single charge attack that destroyed it when it hit the target (6d6 KA I believe). By having it as its own writeup, it would continue to try to hit the target until either shot down, wrecked for some reason, or ran out of fuel. 

[Chris Goodwin]

Reasoning from effect...
 

A Homing power has multiple chances to hit, but it can only hit once.  If it misses with all of those chances, then it doesn't hit. 

 

Since the attack is only going to hit once, do we really need to have three dice rolls to hit?  Or could that just be a special effect of increased OCV and we roll once?

 

Let's buy it with +3 OCV and a Limitation.  Something to the effect of, if it doesn't hit the target by at least 3 points (including the added OCV), then it's delayed by 1 Segment per point it doesn't make that threshold by, to a maximum of 3 Segments.  I'd give it -1/4 at most.  Add Physical Manifestation so that it can be knocked down during that time. 

 

So... I suppose the only "custom Adder" I might be using here is the +3 OCV with the single attack. 

 

To answer @Sketchpad's question, I don't think I've ever needed or wanted a custom Adder.  I have mulled over allowing one Power to act as an Adder for another, if you can come up with a good enough reason to build it that way.  The example I came up with for myself was Extradimensional Movement, using Teleport as an Adder; which when built like that would allow you to travel to the other dimension, then back to the original one having Teleported in the process. 

 

I've further considered breaking out the Regrowth and Resurrection Adders, for Healing and Regeneration, as their own Powers but allowing them to be Adders using this rationale.  As separate Powers, they work slowly, at your standard BODY recovery rate, so you'll probably want to buy Healing or Regeneration with them.  But you don't have to. 

 

Buying one Power as an adder for another probably looks more or less the same as buying a Compound Power via Hero Designer.  And we can already do that...

[Hugh Neilson]

For +1, the power could be Uncontrolled and Constant - dump in your END, hit once and it just keeps on hitting.

 

+1/2 would have made it Constant - hit once, and as long as you keep using your phase, you keep hitting again.

 

So let's take the extra +1/2 for Uncontrolled (I don't have to keep spending phases, but I have to commit the END up front) and have a +1/2 advantage that allows me to pay END for multiple attacks. One goes off now, and one goes off each subsequent phase, making a new attack roll each time.

 

If it can only hit once, that makes it less useful.  Maybe we call that a +1/4 advantage.

 

That seems like a starting point, at least.

[Chris Goodwin]

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

If it can only hit once, that makes it less useful.  Maybe we call that a +1/4 advantage.

 

I think this was specified in the initial build.  Which made it sound to me like something that takes a variable amount of Extra Time, and combining multiple attempts into a single dice roll. 

 

Or, almost the inverse of Autofire or Multiple Attack.  In this case you keep rolling until you hit once, the series is exhausted, or the Physical Manifestation is destroyed. 

[Chris Goodwin]

I thought I'd expand my reasoning a bit.

 

Let's assume for the sake of easy math that the initial attack hits on 10-, or 50%.  Which means it has a 50% to miss.  Two attempts gives it a 25% chance to miss, or 75% chance to hit.  Three gives a 12.5% chance to miss, or 87.5% chance to hit.  I'm reasonably certain both my math and my reasoning are correct. 

 

Going back to the dice probability chart for 3d6, 12- is a 74.07% chance to hit (approximating 75%), and 14- is 90.74%, close enough to 87.5%.  Because we're working on 3d6 and not percentiles, we can call +2 per pass "good enough".  We can buy +4 OCV with a single attack for +8 base points. 

 

I'm assuming each attempt is a separate "pass" taking +1 Segment of Extra Time.  -1/2 is an Extra Segment, or -3/4 is an Extra Phase.  Let's assume -1/2 for a variable amount of extra Segments that could be 0, 1, or 2; it could as easily be -1/4 if it seems too much.  With the +4 to hit: if you hit exactly or by 1, it hits on the third pass, at +2 Segments, if you hit by 2 or 3 it's the second pass, at +1 Segment, and if you hit by 4 or more it's the first pass, on the Segment it's fired. 

[Hugh Neilson]

6 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

I think this was specified in the initial build.  Which made it sound to me like something that takes a variable amount of Extra Time, and combining multiple attempts into a single dice roll. 

 

Or, almost the inverse of Autofire or Multiple Attack.  In this case you keep rolling until you hit once, the series is exhausted, or the Physical Manifestation is destroyed. 

 

That was the initial build, however a mechanic has to come from somewhere.  I started from a different angle, being the ability to hit multiple times  without needing a new roll to hit, with an Uncontrolled Constant attack.  So how might one buy  a single fire and forget action that keeps attacking, but has to roll to hit each time? That's less limited than what the OP wants, so how do we drop that down?

 

4 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

I thought I'd expand my reasoning a bit.

 

Let's assume for the sake of easy math that the initial attack hits on 10-, or 50%.  Which means it has a 50% to miss.  Two attempts gives it a 25% chance to miss, or 75% chance to hit.  Three gives a 12.5% chance to miss, or 87.5% chance to hit.  I'm reasonably certain both my math and my reasoning are correct. 

 

Going back to the dice probability chart for 3d6, 12- is a 74.07% chance to hit (approximating 75%), and 14- is 90.74%, close enough to 87.5%.  Because we're working on 3d6 and not percentiles, we can call +2 per pass "good enough".  We can buy +4 OCV with a single attack for +8 base points. 

 

I'm assuming each attempt is a separate "pass" taking +1 Segment of Extra Time.  -1/2 is an Extra Segment, or -3/4 is an Extra Phase.  Let's assume -1/2 for a variable amount of extra Segments that could be 0, 1, or 2; it could as easily be -1/4 if it seems too much.  With the +4 to hit: if you hit exactly or by 1, it hits on the third pass, at +2 Segments, if you hit by 2 or 3 it's the second pass, at +1 Segment, and if you hit by 4 or more it's the first pass, on the Segment it's fired. 

 

Normally if I want to use something that takes Extra Time, I have to wait the Extra time.  One example using levels is a rifle scope.  Applying the rules in that way, your model provides a considerable advantage in that the attack could hit without suffering from the time delay. You are also applying a limitation to 2-point skill levels, which RAW does not permit. 

 

As the linked thread shows, there's no simple Hero mechanic for this. As well, most power-based builds end up on the pricy side when I could just buy extra OCV and be more likely to hit with no delay every time.  The added OCV simulation also supports the use of an adder rather than an advantage, as skill levels would be a fixed cost.  For +4 points (+2 OCV with one attack), I could have been more likely to hit with every attack, so one extra chance to hit on (say) my next phase should cost less than that, or at least no more than that.  Perhaps a 3 point Adder for one followup attempt, +2 for each doubling of the followups would be a reasonable price.

 

One thing the OCV bonus analysis shows is that this should not be an expensive ability, given how cheap it would be to just have a better chance to hit with the initial attack.

 

Still liking that Uncontrolled without Constant +1/2 for an attack that keeps trying no matter how many times it succeeds, though.

[Sketchpad]

On 1/26/2024 at 5:11 PM, Gauntlet said:

In a Robot Warriors game I once ran, I had Homing Missiles. They were purchased as another vehicle that flied and tried to hit the target and of course had a single charge attack that destroyed it when it hit the target (6d6 KA I believe). By having it as its own writeup, it would continue to try to hit the target until either shot down, wrecked for some reason, or ran out of fuel. 

 

For a missile, that makes sense. But to stat out Darkseid's Omega Beams? Never cared for the idea. I did like the +1/2 Custom Adder with a +1/4 for each successful attempt (which I'll be using in some builds). 

[Chris Goodwin]

If it can hit more than once, it's more like Autofire with each shot delayed.  I'd price it like Autofire for the amount of shots, and build in a Limitation for the delay.  -1/4 if it can hit in the segment you attack, -1/2 if it can't hit until the next.  Each additional shot is delayed by one more segment regardless.

 

Also, to Hugh's point above, maybe -1/4 is better for that build as well.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Here's my house rule advantage for homing.  I only used it once, on bad guys.  I came up with this idea after watching the film Runaway with Tom Selleck:

 

Quote

 

Seeking Keeps trying to hit the target for x increments over y time period (similar cost structure to DOT).   Starts immediately, cannot be a limitation.  Must roll to hit normally each increment

 

MOD	INCREMENTS
+0	1
+¼	2-3
+½	4-5
+¾	6-7
+1	8-10
+1¼	11-15
+1½	16-20
x2	Need not maintain line of of sight
half	Cannot have more than one attack seeking at once
half	Attacker must channel attack (can take no other actions)

MOD	TIME BETWEEN ATTACKS
+1½	Segment
+1¼	Every other segment
+1	Every three segments
+¾	Every Four Segments
+½	Every Six Segments
+¼	Every Turn
+0	Every Minute
-¼	Every Five Minutes, etc

 

Edited January 29 by Christopher R Taylor

[Lord Liaden]

On 1/26/2024 at 8:36 AM, Sketchpad said:

Hello Herodom! I took a look around after not really being satisfied with the Omega Beams presented in Champions Powers, and was specifically looking for something akin to Homing. After looking at the responses, I was curious about what other custom adders folks may have used in the past. Did you have a power where you had to create an adder? If so, what was it and how did it work?

 

Getting away from Homing discussion to the point of the OP ; Sketch, are you only interested in Adders, or did you want to discuss Custom Advantages as well?

 

For anyone curious, I did in the past start a thread for Custom Advantages.

Edited January 29 by Lord Liaden

[LoneWolf]

Another way to do a homing attack would be to buy it with the advantage 1M accurate.  As long as you hit DCV 3 the target takes damage.  Basically it keeps attacking until it eventually hits.  The attack could be avoided by diving for cover or deflecting it, but other than that it keeps attacking till it hits.  

 

Personally, I think that instead of using custom adders or advantages using limitations is a better way to build unusual powers.   The game already includes those.  The only argument you are likely to see is how much the custom limitation is worth.   
 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I have used custom adders, but only as a kludge for how Hero Designer works; sometimes you need it to do something it doesn't like or understand how to do, and adders can give you the numbers you need.  The more elegant way to do it would be to set up your own rules on how it should do things, but I don't know how to do that.

[Sketchpad]

 

5 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Getting away from Homing discussion to the point of the OP ; Sketch, are you only interested in Adders, or did you want to discuss Custom Advantages as well?

 

For anyone curious, I did in the past start a thread for Custom Advantages.

 

Custom Advantages and Limitations would also be welcome. I'll take a peek at what you posted in your thread.

Edited January 29 by Sketchpad

[Gauntlet]

Could this be getting overcomplicated? Wouldn't you just need indirect and perhaps another way to see your target if they are not directly in your line of site?

[Chris Goodwin]

1 hour ago, Gauntlet said:

Could this be getting overcomplicated? Wouldn't you just need indirect and perhaps another way to see your target if they are not directly in your line of site?

 

The requested build (in the other thread) specified that the attack would make multiple attempts to hit until one of the following happened: it hit, it ran out of attempts, or it was destroyed.

[Gauntlet]

2 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

The requested build (in the other thread) specified that the attack would make multiple attempts to hit until one of the following happened: it hit, it ran out of attempts, or it was destroyed.

 

Thanks, missed that. Then I would suggest utilizing summon rather than an actual attack with the summoned item, creature, or whatever, automatically dies, is destroyed, or whatever once again, after making a successful attack.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah you can do it with a summoned thing that acts like the attack, behaving as an independent creature, although summon has its own complications (its stunned first phase when it shows up, you have to make control roll etc).

[Chris Goodwin]

Given the initial conditions, it's basically an attack with a variable delay and an increased potential chance to hit the longer the delay is. 

[Tech]

In "Hi-Tech Enemies", the villain Downtown has a homing missile built as a robot. It takes care of all the problems with one exception: if you want to use the attack more than once (because the missile robot is destroyed after hitting) unless you buy multiple robots.

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, Tech said:

In "Hi-Tech Enemies", the villain Downtown has a homing missile built as a robot. It takes care of all the problems with one exception: if you want to use the attack more than once (because the missile robot is destroyed after hitting) unless you buy multiple robots.

 

Or, build the character to be able to Summon multiple robots, so you can keep "replacing" it after it's used. There are some published builds which utilize that. Downtown only carried the one, so would have to reload/build (buy) another out of combat. But a Summon with Charges simulates a "missile rack" or similar multiple capacity.

[Sketchpad]

It's probably just me, but I don't see something like Darkseid's Omega Beams built as a summon. I've considered the AoE bit, and prefer the Homing bit in the other thread, in all honesty. But the build in Champions Powers, which is a summon and energy creature/creation, isn't what I would use for that kind of effect.