Pain without damage

[Grailknight]

I'd hesitate to give it more than -1/2. That's the value assigned to Mind Control with only a single command and seems pretty analogous to Mental Illusion, only to cause pain.

[unclevlad]

If it's a mental illusion of pain being caused, too...the target gets a breakout roll, and if he makes that?  No more pain.  That doesn't fit the notions of an agonizer or pain box at all.  The pain is real.

 

Mind, I agree mostly...a mental illusion can be a devastating approach.  it's been used in books a few times as part of a torture regimen.  I think, to work tho...the illusion has to be of some injury, and letting the victim's brain impute the damage.  I don't think I'd allow "you feel intense pain" without the clear source of pain.

 

And if you think of it that way, there's no limitation at all.

[LoneWolf]

Limited by sense that is a -1/2 if it is a targeting sense and a -1/4 for a non-targeting sense. Pain would only affect the sense of touch.  Sight is ½, plus ¼ for hearing, and ¼ for smell/taste that works out to -1.  That does not include any limitations on what sensation of touch can be created. If pain only is the equivalent of single command it should be worth a 1 -/2.
 
But thinking about it at EGO plus 30 it would affect the other senses, so maybe a -1 would be about right.  Mind Control is more focused than Mental Illusion, so the value of the limitation is going to be different.  

 

For a pain box you could add the advantage constant so you even if you make the breakout roll it renews the effect.  
 

[Steve]

I’m starting to wonder if it could be a type of Ego Attack that doesn’t actually cause STUN damage. The dice are only rolled to see if the target is Stunned from the pain.

Edited April 28 by Steve

[Durzan Malakim]

There's a certain pleasing symmetry to using the Endurance attribute to endure pain. How about an Endurance drain? After the target's endurance is gone, you start draining their Stun, which maps well to pushing someone past their pain threshold and into unconsciousness. 

[unclevlad]

2 hours ago, Steve said:

I’m starting to wonder if it could be a type of Ego Attack that doesn’t actually cause STUN damage. The dice are only rolled to see if the target is Stunned from the pain.

 

That would be fine, I'd say.  Another one might be a Flash attack versus Touch...the pain lasts for multiple segments.

 

46 minutes ago, Durzan Malakim said:

There's a certain pleasing symmetry to using the Endurance attribute to endure pain. How about an Endurance drain? After the target's endurance is gone, you start draining their Stun, which maps well to pushing someone past their pain threshold and into unconsciousness. 

 

What's the goal?  Why is the person inflicting the pain?  How does draining END achieve it?  

[Durzan Malakim]

19 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

What's the goal?  Why is the person inflicting the pain?  How does draining END achieve it?  

 

The goal is the same as what it's always been: to inflict pain without causing damage. Draining END is just one of many possibilities to model this. At the end of the day, this is a question that doesn't need a definitive answer unless and until the GM needs a game mechanic for it. To be honest I thought that the NND martial maneuvers were the traditional HERO system answer for pain-based attacks. An NND attack reduces someone to zero stun, which prevents them from acting until they recover. An endurance drain can reduce someone to zero endurance, which prevents the target from acting when those actions cost endurance. The target can still spend stun as endurance to push through the pain, which to me is an elegant solution.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I could see END loss as representing pain; pain is enervating, you are using up so much power fighting whatever is causing the pain that you have less to offer for other things.

[unclevlad]

2 hours ago, Durzan Malakim said:

 

The goal is the same as what it's always been: to inflict pain without causing damage. Draining END is just one of many possibilities to model this. At the end of the day, this is a question that doesn't need a definitive answer unless and until the GM needs a game mechanic for it. To be honest I thought that the NND martial maneuvers were the traditional HERO system answer for pain-based attacks. An NND attack reduces someone to zero stun, which prevents them from acting until they recover. An endurance drain can reduce someone to zero endurance, which prevents the target from acting when those actions cost endurance. The target can still spend stun as endurance to push through the pain, which to me is an elegant solution.

 

What I'm saying is back it up a step.  it's not the mechanic I'm questioning, it's the motivation behind doing it in the first place...and therefore, does draining END make sense to achieve that goal.

[Durzan Malakim]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

 

What I'm saying is back it up a step.  it's not the mechanic I'm questioning, it's the motivation behind doing it in the first place...and therefore, does draining END make sense to achieve that goal.

 

@Steve wants to simulate items that cause pain but appear to do no actual damage. I don't know his motivations, because each of the examples he provides has a different purpose.

 

On 4/22/2024 at 10:12 PM, Steve said:

Examples of what caused my initial question: the Agony Box from Dune and the agonizer from Star Trek’s Mirror Universe. They caused pain but didn’t seem to cause any actual damage.

 

EDIT: Add in the Cruciatus Curse from Harry Potter that inflicts pain but no long-lasting damage.

 

• The Dune Agony Box is a test of self-control. Maybe that's more like a Ego test or an opposed test of resisting Interrogation.
• The Star Trek Agonizer is a punishment and perhaps a type of transform where you become someone who obeys rather than face the pain.
• The Harry Potter Cruciatus Curse is a straight up attack meant to incapacitate your foe.

An endurance drain would probably make more sense as an attack than as a test of will or a punishment.

Edited April 28 by Durzan Malakim
Fix typo

[dmjalund]

i think one use of pain is, in a game with hit locations, rules for using wounded or disabled limbs. Also you could 'push' your contortionist skill if you can resist the pain required/

[Grailknight]

3 hours ago, Durzan Malakim said:

 

@Steve wants to simulate items that cause pain but appear to do no actual damage. I don't know his motivations, because each of the examples he provides has a different purpose.

 

 

• The Dune Agony Box is a test of self-control. Maybe that's more like a Ego test or an opposed test of resisting Interrogation.
• The Star Trek Agonizer is a punishment and perhaps a type of transform where you become someone who obeys rather than face the pain.
• The Harry Potter Cruciatus Curse is a straight up attack meant to incapacitate your foe.

An endurance drain would probably make more sense as an attack than as a test of will or a punishment.

 

So, in all these cases the pain is merely an SFX.

 

But this is HERO, the mechanic can have any SFX that can be reasonably applied. What we really need to do is determine, on a case-by-case basis, what the actual mechanic we are trying to achieve is. I don't think this can be narrowed down to one method.

Edited April 29 by Grailknight

[Gauntlet]

Problem is that declaring that there is no damage with pain doesn't make sense. Pain is your bodies indicator that something is damaged. Now the damage may not be something that is going to kill you, there still is something damaged in some way. I am not seeing any point in any type of damage that doesn't at least cause a loss of STUN. I believe that is one of the big reason's Hero has two "Hit Point" types, BODY and STUN. 

Edited April 29 by Gauntlet

[Doc Democracy]

Just thinking about it, for some applications, a pain attack could be modelled as both STUN suppression and/or vulnerability (2x STUN) to successful attack on a particular hit location.  Both of these things would increase the chances of being knocked out or stunned. 

 

You can imagine that if you are already in pain that subsequent attacks might be more likely to take you out, you are less resilient.  Or, because you have an agonising pain (due to twisted or broken bones for example) and someone hits you in the same place that you might balck out for a short period due to the pain, or simply fall unconcious.

 

It does not deliver behaviour changes - players generally play their characters as far more indifferent to pain than would likely be the case.  To deliver behaviour changes, such as being worried about sticking your head back above the parapet, you need mechanics (like the PRE roll in Danger International).

 

Doc

[IndianaJoe3]

On 4/28/2024 at 10:52 AM, Steve said:

I’m starting to wonder if it could be a type of Ego Attack that doesn’t actually cause STUN damage. The dice are only rolled to see if the target is Stunned from the pain.

 

This is why I suggested the Change Environment Stunning variant from APG1. 😁

[Sean Waters]

Always seemed to me that enough pain would Stun a target.  6d6 Mental Blast (causes no damage, only to apply the Stunned effect) will get a lot of targets a lot of the time.  Technically you can also use Cumulative, which can be applied to any power that uses a cumulative total to achieve a specified effect, so 4d6 Cumulative Mental Blast would do the trick, but would take a couple of hits.  I know it says you can't use it on blasts and such but that is because damage is cumulative anyway - in this case you are going for a particular level of damage and not actually doing real damage.  GM call, but I'd probably make it.  Two phases to Stun a target (probably) doesn't sound unfair.  Hardpoint and Taurus from 6E2 both have 30 CON so it would take three Cumulative hits to Stun them.

 

The Advanced Players Guide also has a variant on Change Environment that allows you to apply the Stunned effect for 30 points, which seems awfully cheap and meta-gamey.

Edited July 16 by Sean Waters
Thought of more stuff and it felt it fitted here better than a new post.

[Sean Waters]

For that matter a 6d6 NND would Stun Eagle Eye, on an average damage roll and would only need to be slightly above average (by 3 points) to Stun Maelstrom.  That would also do no real damage i.e. it would not kill you, but it could KO you, which I imagine enough pain could do.

 

The answer, then, depends very much on how the protagonists and antagonists are built.

[Grailknight]

6 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

Always seemed to me that enough pain would Stun a target.  6d6 Mental Blast (causes no damage, only to apply the Stunned effect) will get a lot of targets a lot of the time.  Technically you can also use Cumulative, which can be applied to any power that uses a cumulative total to achieve a specified effect, so 4d6 Cumulative Mental Blast would do the trick, but would take a couple of hits.  I know it says you can't use it on blasts and such but that is because damage is cumulative anyway - in this case you are going for a particular level of damage and not actually doing real damage.  GM call, but I'd probably make it.  Two phases to Stun a target (probably) doesn't sound unfair.  Hardpoint and Taurus from 6E2 both have 30 CON so it would take three Cumulative hits to Stun them.

 

I was going to categorically condemn this idea but, in some campaigns, this is actually a worse option than normal damage. If 3 hits would KO an average target, you're doing yourself a disservice. Does recovering from being stun negate all the previous damage? Is the Character/NPC that uses this part of a team(broken) or solo(nearly useless)?

 

Being Stunned should be rare, because if you're Stunned in an active combat, you've probably lost. And I definitely wouldn't allow a Limitation greater than -1/4 for only to STUN, because it'll only be used in a situation where it'll be effective.

 

6 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

 

The Advanced Players Guide also has a variant on Change Environment that allows you to apply the Stunned effect for 30 points, which seems awfully cheap and meta-gamey.

 

Yep, most of the direct attack uses of Change Environment are broken.

Edited July 16 by Grailknight

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

The Advanced Players Guide also has a variant on Change Environment that allows you to apply the Stunned effect for 30 points, which seems awfully cheap and meta-gamey.

 

In practice its not nearly as bad as it feels.  30 points is the equivalence of 6d6 (sufficient to instantly stun any normal AND do significant damage) and all it takes is a CON Roll to shrug off.  Few heroes will struggle making a CON Roll.

[Gauntlet]

56 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

In practice its not nearly as bad as it feels.  30 points is the equivalence of 6d6 (sufficient to instantly stun any normal AND do significant damage) and all it takes is a CON Roll to shrug off.  Few heroes will struggle making a CON Roll.

 

Not quite sure if your math is correct. a 6d6 attack would do an average of 21. Doing 30 would almost be max (36 is max for 6d6). 9d6 would be the number of dice required to have 30 be average.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Not quite sure if your math is correct. a 6d6 attack would do an average of 21. 

 

Yes.  And 21 stun done to a normal person deals 19 stun to them, almost knocking them out and instantly stunning them.  I was referring to the COST (30 points) to buy 6d6 or to buy Change Environment: stunning

[Gauntlet]

7 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Yes.  And 21 stun done to a normal person deals 19 stun to them, almost knocking them out and instantly stunning them.  I was referring to the COST (30 points) to buy 6d6 or to buy Change Environment: stunning

 

Ahhh, gotcha. Thanks.

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

was referring to the COST (30 points) to buy 6d6 or to buy Change Environment: stunning

 

Ummmm...

30 points?  That's a 6d6 blast.  Standard.  Mental Blast is 10 points per, so you're talking 3d6.  Or, Blast NND vs Mental Def, you get 4d6 for 30 points.  Probably stuns a normal...rarely a super.

 

 

 

[Gauntlet]

6 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

 

Ummmm...

30 points?  That's a 6d6 blast.  Standard.  Mental Blast is 10 points per, so you're talking 3d6.  Or, Blast NND vs Mental Def, you get 4d6 for 30 points.  Probably stuns a normal...rarely a super.

 

 

 

 

I think what he is referring to is that with the optional rules, change environment can do a 6d6 NND for 30 points which is much less expensive then purchasing the actual power.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I think what he is referring to is that with the optional rules, change environment can do a 6d6 NND for 30 points which is much less expensive then purchasing the actual power.

 

No, my point is that for the same 30 points you're insta-stunning normals (the vast bulk of the population) and there's no CON Roll.  But wait Christopher, you cry, supers can reliably shrug off 6d6 damage!  Yes, they usually can.  They can also reliably make a CON Roll.  My point was as I said, it is actually  not as broken as it looks when you use it in practice.