Pain without damage

[Steve]

How would you model an attack that causes pain, but it doesn’t actually do any damage?

 

An NND? A Drain vs STUN? Something else?

[dmjalund]

Change Environment - will roll required to use STR?

[Grailknight]

45 minutes ago, Steve said:

How would you model an attack that causes pain, but it doesn’t actually do any damage?

 

An NND? A Drain vs STUN? Something else?

 

It can be any of those things.

 

I've used Mental Blast, Mental Illusion, AVLD/NND, Drain and STUN-only Blast in this manner. They all work, just a matter of SFX. Whatever suits the character concept best is what you should go with.

[LoneWolf]

Like anything else in the game, it depends on the special effect, and what you want the pain to do.

 

If the goal is to knock someone out some form of Stun only attack will work.  This could be an NND or other exotic attack or just a plain Stun only attack.

 

If you want the pain to cause other effects, you need to build those using other powers.  One way would be to use a limited form of mind control.  A single command drop the item you are holding because it is causing you great pain would simulate this.   Another way would be a change environment requiring an ego roll to continue your action.  Like I said it depends on what effects the pain causes.   
 

This question is kind of like asking, how would you build an electrical attack.   There are many right answers to both of these questions. 

[unclevlad]

Yeah, a pretty stock trope is that using one's powers requires concentration, and what pain can do is make it hard to concentrate through the pain.  That's the motivation.

 

Look at the example major transforms on 6E1 304.

--impose a limitation (up to -1)

--CV penalties

--giving a Complication...unluck.

 

Several of these would work pretty well with Partial Transform.  A suggested, nasty complication is Requires 11- roll, that's -1.  There's lesser levels for Partial Transform.  

 

Here, the pain's just the SFX, the goal is to just make it HARD to do something.  And it's not cheap, as Partial Transform makes it 15 points per die.

EDIT:  oh, and note the key is concentration disruption.  Pain's not the only way to do that.  In Drew Hayes' Super Powereds series, the tech kid incorporates an itching attack into his weapon.  Massive itching might be a better way to disrupt concentration;  people are used to fighting through pain, but man, SEVERE itching?  An attack I often like is to swap the defenses on a Flash attack from Flash Def to Ego Def...a flash bang targeting the sensory centers of the brain directly.  That could be done here...instead of shutting down, overload. 

 

 

[Steve]

Examples of what caused my initial question: the Agony Box from Dune and the agonizer from Star Trek’s Mirror Universe. They caused pain but didn’t seem to cause any actual damage.

 

EDIT: Add in the Cruciatus Curse from Harry Potter that inflicts pain but no long-lasting damage.

Edited April 23 by Steve

[unclevlad]

5 minutes ago, Steve said:

Examples of what caused my initial question: the Agony Box from Dune and the agonizer from Star Trek’s Mirror Universe. They caused pain but didn’t seem to cause any actual damage.

ahh...hm.  Those are a bit different.  I wouldn't try to describe how it does it myself, just what it does to them.  Nerve induction should, by and large, do what's suggested.  That's how the pain box is most commonly written up. The agonizer may have had a higher setting, right?  Where it disrupted nerve signals, and might've done more...induced seizures, even stop the heart?  Disrupting nerve signals could probably do either one.

 

I remember reading what I think was a legit experiment, wherein people were subjected to minor levels of shock, heat, and cold...all at the same time, say on different fingers...and their reaction was OMG WHAT!!!! because the 3 separate signals, from 3 separate sources, amplified each other.  People YANKED their hand out expecting to see notable damage...but there wasn't any.

[Doc Democracy]

In all of this it really comes down to what you expect the pain to do.  When you have decided that you can probably quite easily design a power that meets that.

 

If I remember correctly (and it has been a LONG time since I read the rules), in Danger International, if you were hit with an attack that did BODY damage then you had to make a PRE roll modified by the BODY damage taken.  A failed roll meant that the next action had to be taking cover, retreating or some other purely defensive move.

 

[Steve]

I like the idea of it affecting the Concentration Limitation or adding a roll to an existing ability to use it.

 

I suppose it could also act as a bonus to the Interrogation skill. I think the Cruciatus Curse from Harry Potter got used that way in the books, but I can’t remember for sure.

[Sketchpad]

CON Drain. Lowers the pain threshold, but still causes an effect. The more pain you're under, the more it makes sense that you resistance is lowered. 

[Tech]

Entangle, based on ECV, Invisible, Limitation: doesn't affect you that PHA (or turn if you prefer) with an Ego roll

[Christopher R Taylor]

It really does depend on what you are trying to simulate.  If its just something that makes people hurt then it might just be a mental illusion.  If they hurt if they try to do something, its probably Change Environment.  If it hurts so bad the target cannot even move or act, its probably entangle.

 

In one of the Advanced Player Guides, they suggest an option where you can give people limitations using Change Environment, that might work

[unclevlad]

9 hours ago, Steve said:

I like the idea of it affecting the Concentration Limitation or adding a roll to an existing ability to use it.

 

I suppose it could also act as a bonus to the Interrogation skill. I think the Cruciatus Curse from Harry Potter got used that way in the books, but I can’t remember for sure.

 

Pain is a stock, if not necessarily effective, element of torture, so a bonus to interrogation, or possibly intimidation-based PRE attacks, would work.

 

 

[Phoenix]

Oh you mean getting old... oh you meant in game terms.

 

I have always considered pain to be represented by the stun char.  So Stun Drain/Suppress/Transfer, Ego Attack, NND, etc.

[unclevlad]

2 minutes ago, Phoenix said:

Oh you mean getting old... oh you meant in game terms.

 

I have always considered pain to be represented by the stun char.  So Stun Drain/Suppress/Transfer, Ego Attack, NND, etc.

 

Mmm...not really.  They're mostly separate, particularly in this context.  A paper cut doesn't do BODY most of the time, and you're no closer to losing consciousness, so it's nothing to do with STUN.  Or a minor burn...like you forgot that pan was just in the oven...and you tried to grab the handle without a pot holder?  Or the stupid things we did as kids?  Or spattering grease, that's no fun.  

 

Or what was going on in my mouth, *especially* the last couple days before I was able to get a root canal done *quickly*.  Or the even worse case...some years ago, I got some shampoo in my left eye.  We've all done that...but this was particularly nasty.  And within a few weeks?  That eye started suffering from corneal erosions.  Literally, the super-thin layer of cells over the eye...sloughed off.  Think a piece of grit or a hair, then turn it up.  And up.  And UP...when most of it sloughed off.  SHARPLY!!!!! painful, and tears?  Hey, tears are salt water!  Oh yeah.  Joy.  

 

None of these really felt like they were related to STUN;  they were something unto themselves.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Stun doesn't really mean pain, it means consciousness.  A gas that knocks you out takes stun away just like a fist.  Pain can cause unconsciousness, but so does sleep.

[unclevlad]

And pain can absolutely keep you awake.

I'd also extend your statement, CRT, to include the (in)ability to focus on what's going on around you...disorientation.  That's what getting stunned is.  

 

And to a point...serious, sharp pain would do that too.  Even pass out.  Had THAT happen once.  LONG!!! time ago.  OLD fridge on the top, freezer on the bottom.  The doors had squared corners.  I was getting something from the freezer...didn't realize the fridge door was open...and stood up quickly.  Corner went *squarely* into my back.  I don't remember anything after that...even tho I believe a trip to the hospital was involved.  

 

But generally, yeah, they're not well-connected concepts.

[LoneWolf]

One thing that people are not taking into account is the pain can be caused by many different things.  Pain in itself is just a sensation that is designed to warn you of a wide variety of things.  It is a kind of generic signal that something bad happened to your body.  

 

So, the first thing to do is to separate out the cause of the pain from the pain.  In many cases people are blaming the pain for the effects of the cause.  In @Unclevlad’s latest example did the pain cause him to lose consciousness or was it the back injury that put him out?  

 

You could build an entire character around the idea of pain and have a wide variety of effects.   
 

[unclevlad]

The pain, most likely, but as I say, I only remember one very brief moment of it.  

 

 

[Phoenix]

On 4/23/2024 at 7:22 PM, unclevlad said:

 

Mmm...not really.  They're mostly separate, particularly in this context.  A paper cut doesn't do BODY most of the time, and you're no closer to losing consciousness, so it's nothing to do with STUN.  Or a minor burn...like you forgot that pan was just in the oven...and you tried to grab the handle without a pot holder?  Or the stupid things we did as kids?  Or spattering grease, that's no fun.  

 

Or what was going on in my mouth, *especially* the last couple days before I was able to get a root canal done *quickly*.  Or the even worse case...some years ago, I got some shampoo in my left eye.  We've all done that...but this was particularly nasty.  And within a few weeks?  That eye started suffering from corneal erosions.  Literally, the super-thin layer of cells over the eye...sloughed off.  Think a piece of grit or a hair, then turn it up.  And up.  And UP...when most of it sloughed off.  SHARPLY!!!!! painful, and tears?  Hey, tears are salt water!  Oh yeah.  Joy.  

 

None of these really felt like they were related to STUN;  they were something unto themselves.

Yeah sorry, but I'm going to stick to my guns here.  most of your examples I would call stun damage that failed to exceed defense, except the shampoo incident (damn ouch). With enough pain most people will pass out. a great many moons ago (1980's) I passed out from pain when a doctor set my broken wrist.  Another example would be stubbing your toe on the table leg, hurts like all heck you hop around the room for a few clutching your foot, in other words "taking a recovery" (is that still a thing in 6th edition?). So anyway, I'm still of the opinion pain represents stun. 

 

Now with the other posts, yes pain can keep you from sleeping and will wake you up real quickly with lingering pain I'd call that more of a drain like effect, no amount of recoveries will make that go away. Ego/mental damage, headache. KO gas that simulates sleep. as far as natural sleep I write that off as one of those invisible disadvantages/complications off setting all those boons characters get for free (STR, DEX, CON, BDY, INT, EGO, PRE, movement, senses). 

 

Well stay safe everyone, "Hero On"

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

in other words "taking a recovery" (is that still a thing in 6th edition?)

 

...yes.  recovery is still a thing in 6th edition.

[pawsplay]

I think it's mostly Stun damage. Anything that causes "agony" is doing enough Stun to make you Stunned. If it's particularly distracting, CE might apply, or DEX drain, as well. I think a distinction needs to be made between pain (a mental experience), nociception (a physical sensation), and suffering (a psychological state).

[IndianaJoe3]

APG1 has a, "Stunning" effect for Change Environment if you want to go that route. If you're trying to make the target compliant then Drain EGO might be a better fit.

[unclevlad]

23 minutes ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

APG1 has a, "Stunning" effect for Change Environment if you want to go that route. If you're trying to make the target compliant then Drain EGO might be a better fit.

 

You don't need to have it do Drain per se, since that has secondary considerations, and it's just unnecessary.  The pain itself is the motivator.  Heck, the *threat* of pain is very likely going to be enough.

 

And in general, it feels like Change Env is making things FAR too complicated.  Causing pain without doing any damage is not that hard.  The pain is only the means.  It isn't an end in itself.  It doesn't have to "Drain EGO"...when it can inflict a penalty to EGO rolls.  See Interrogation...skill vs. skill contest, where the victim makes an EGO roll.  6E1 78.  Then, Resistance...6E1 114.  One of the optional applications is dealing with the pain of wounds.  6E2 108 offers up some rules for how lost BODY might impact EGO rolls here...left to GM discretion.  THAT opens the door to a different interpretation:  the agonizer/pain box does "killing damage" that actually does no STUN or BODY per se...but the pain's real enough to impose penalties as if the victim had taken the damage rolled.  Conceptually, this is a lot like Disabling strikes...where you do BODY, sure, but to specific areas, and the victim isn't at risk of dying from it.  

 

 

[LoneWolf]

If you want a power that can simulate a wide variety of pain Mental Illusion would be perfect for this.  Depending on the targets EGO and how well you roll you could cause anything between a minor irritant to death.   Greater than the targets EGO would cause a minor sensation of pain, but no real effect.  EGO +10 would cause the target to penalties to actions, but still be able to act.  EGO +20 would probably be able to prevent the character from acting.  At EGO +30 the pain is so great the target passes out.   If you want to be able to deal damage to the target add the appropriate modifier.  I would say that to deal damage you need be doing at least EGO +10 before adding the modifier for taking damage.  

 

Pain is merely a sensation; Mental Illusion allows you to alter the sensations of the target.   Pain is usually a sensation of the touch group. Not being able to affect sight is a -1/2 limitation so pain only would be worth at least a -1 if not more.  Personally, I would probably say it is worth a -2.  Add in Based on CON and it becomes dirt cheap.  Based on CON may not fit all special effects but does make sense for a lot of pain-based attacks.