GM'ing Question: Experience Points and Multipower Slots.

[KA.]

Hello,

I am restarting my Champions campaign, and a topic has come up that I find troubling. (If there is already a published answer to this that I missed, please excuse me. I buy all the books as they come out, but I don't always have a lot of time for reading.)

You have a player with a Multipower, possibly with a few Limitations on the Base and the Slots.

Over the course of an adventure, the player earns 3 or 4 XP.

Now he has the choice of either buying a new Skill, (hopefully non-combat, making the GM happy) or having a brand new Power!

Many players, unless they are very mature, are going to go for the new Multipower slot time and again!

I have done this myself as a player, but it somehow seems "wrong" when I really think about it.

If Gadget Man, the Man of 1000 Gadgets wants to add in something new after each adventure, that is okay, and in concept, but usually Superheroes don't just pop up with something new every issue!

I mean, unless you are going through a new writer or something, Thor doesn't just pop up and say:

"Base Villain, feel the Wrath of My Autofire, Armor-Piercing Hammer Attack!"

Yes, heroes do change over time, but a Character with a multipower can add a new, powerful power every week, while it may take months for Mr. Elemental Control to ever get anything. The Character with no Power Frameworks may never get anything new during the entire campaign.

 

I don't want to outlaw the frameworks, as they make perfectly good sense when constructing new characters, but I would like some way to handle this imbalance so that neither the Multipower, nor the Non-Multipower players feel "screwed".

 

Has anyone else come up with a solution for this?

 

I know that I have the right, as GM, to just tell Mr. Multipower "No, you can't buy that."

 

But I would like to come up with some sort of guidelines that are fair to everyone.

 

Thanks for any help or suggestions,

 

KA.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I think you've got a couple of options. For characters where gaining new Powers frequently does not make sense, (ie., this doesn't apply to Gadget Man), just stick to your GM guns about violating character conception by buying new Powers too often. If it's a logically-explained new way of using an existing power, that may not be too bad. But everything still has to make sense in a game-world context, and if they're sprouting new powers with no rationale, that doesn't make sense.

 

For characters like Gadget Man, where adding new powers often really is within their conception, it's often useful to have them encounter situations in games where their powers won't save them. Sometimes what you really need to get out of a tight spot or succeed in an important mission is a Contact or a Skill or what have you. Gently encourage Gadget Man to remember that there are other useful things besides more gadgets. You don't have to stop him from buying gadgets -- that is kind of his schtick, after all -- but make sure there are some consequences of having nothing but gadgets, and hope he gets the clue.

 

Another possibility is to track campaign time closely, and watch new superpowers the same way you might watch spell research or magic item construction in a fantasy campaign. "Sorry, Gadget Man. This adventure picks up only two days after the last one ended. You simply haven't had time to finish creating that new Hyperdimensional Plasma Induction Rifle yet."

[Supreme Serpent]

Make sure the powers are within conception, and I don't think it's that big of a problem. If the Human Torch keeps coming up with slightly different ways to use his fire powers, great. They're still limited by one SFX, and limited by the active points of the MP (so that autofire AP attack will only be around 4d6 vs his normal 12d6 eb). It makes the character more flexible, but not that much more powerful. However, if Human Torch wants to start throwing Ego Attacks, time travel, and other unrelated things into the MP, just say no - keep the powers related to the character.

 

Another thing is to make sure that not all of the scenarios are solved by combat. If they are, there's not much reason to buy anything OTHER than combat stuff. OK, you've beaten the villain - anyone got demolitions to disarm the huge bomb? Anyone got science skills to find a cure for the disease? etc.

[Ghost who Walks]

Another way is to wait until the player has around 10 (or more) points before he spends them. If he has 2 points, he will buy something that costs 2 points...if he has 15, he may buy something wtih 15.

 

I usually like to have something happen to explain a new power appearing, unless it is just another vesion of a preexisting power. The players has to say he is practicing with his new power, for example.

 

Some of my players like to wait until they have a bunch of points, and then they have another mini-origin (done as a scenario). They give me a general idea of what new powers they want, and I construct the scenario around it.

[Solomon]

I agree with Derek and I say - you're the GM, you wear the badge, don't be afraid to use your Great Powers.

 

That's for the "stick" part. Something about "carrots" now.

 

Make sure you reward character growth. I feel it's fair to give more XP to players who spend their XP in non-abusive ways.

[Hermit]

As others have said, a lot of it depends on the nature of the new slot. If it's just a variation of a pre-existing power, it's not as bad since that's more "logical" . If a character often spreads her Energy Blast anyways, I'm not going to fuss as much if she buys a new slot that's got an AE advantage.

[Caped Crusader]

You might remind the everyone that there are other inexpensive things that are useful. Skill Levels are a prime example. They can have many uses, and don't always involve combat. However, the others are correct, thou art the Gamemaster and thy word is law. We have a heavy Multipower character in our game (Me in fact. A Spellcaster, ala Doctor Strange) and although he has an excellent motivation and character excuse to keep acquiring new slots, there other things that need improvement as well.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Buying a new slot in a MP doesn’t always mean getting ‘new’ power. If the character already has a light based EB (12d6) then IMO it’s not much of a stretch to buy another light based EB (8d6) Area Hex, EB (10d6) 1/2 End, or an RKA (4d6). All of these are merely new ‘flavors’ of the old power and it seems to be that it should be pretty easy to learn new variations like this.

 

It’s a different ballgame if lighboy wants to buy something brand new that he doesn’t have much of a pre-existing basis for. Say adding Force Wall to his MP. Then you may or may not want to allow it.

 

IMO the best way to do ‘brand’ new powers in a MP slot is to require that they be limited at first and slowly let the player ‘buy off’ the limitation as he practices the new power. For instance that Force Wall might be bought with Requires Skill Roll, Full Phase Activation, 1/2 DVC Concentration Throughout. After a game session or two let him buy off one limitation. Then after a while they will have the power they wanted & will have role played learning it.

 

I don’t think that players should be limited to just buying skills all the time.

[farik]

Originally posted by Vanderbilt_Grad

IMO the best way to do ‘brand’ new powers in a MP slot is to require that they be limited at first and slowly let the player ‘buy off’ the limitation as he practices the new power. For instance that Force Wall might be bought with Requires Skill Roll, Full Phase Activation, 1/2 DVC Concentration Throughout. After a game session or two let him buy off one limitation. Then after a while they will have the power they wanted & will have role played learning it.

 

I don’t think that players should be limited to just buying skills all the time.

 

I've got to agree with this. I'd suggest a maximum of 1 real pt being spent on a new reasonable but previously untapped power option slot per adventure. That way the players has to limit the power while they learn how to use it and while theit learning that new power usage you as a GM can demonstarte through adventures other places they might want to spend those points.

[Lord Liaden]

All of the above is excellent advice. I tend to use GM fiat in this case most of the time, and since I have a trusting relationship with my players and solicit their input, it's rarely a problem. If what you're looking for is a more "objective" mechanic, though, I've sometimes found use of Skills to develop new Powers to be useful. In the case of gadget-using characters and the like, that's an easy process to justify: the character needs the appropriate SS or KS, Inventor, etc. He or she takes time away from adventuring to research and develop the new item, spell or the like. If running it this way I usually allow the players one roll in between adventures to come up with a new ability, and they can't try again until the character's next "down time."

 

Obviously that isn't appropriate for characters with innate Powers, especially if they don't have any Background Skills related to them; but lately I've gotten some mileage out of the Power Skill in that case. Characters can try something new with their existing Powers using that Skill, and if they're successful two or three times they can build it and add it to their Character Sheet. (In fact if they've used the trick that often, I insist on it.) That tends to keep any additions to a Multipower within concept, and gives the player a process through which they can earn that new ability.

[CrosshairCollie]

The quickest way to get a PCs to spend points on skills is to make sure you run games where skills are more important than powers every now and again. I've had more than one game grind to a halt with something like this:

PC: "Great, all the information we need to find out the villain's plan is in this computer! Let's get it!"

Me: "Okay, make a Computer Programming roll."

PC: "Uh ... I don't have that ... uh, you? No ... uh, Jeff, do you ... uh ... Say, do you have ... no? Uhm ..."

Me: *drums fingers on table*

PC: "$%*@!"

 

Sadly, I've also played in games where noncombat skills were utterly and completely wasted points.

 

It's generally my experience that many (not all, but many) players will simply buy Whatever-It-Was-That-The-Previous-Game-Made-Them-Realize-They-Didn't-Have. Just watch sometime, and listen for things like, "Man ... if only I had an NND ..." or "Gah ... if we could entangle this guy, I'd pound him!"

 

Now, to a degree, it's logical. If you can figure out a tactical deficiency, then find a way to cover it, that's perfectly logical and sensible. But you must make sure that the PC is keeping to his concept and powers!

[KA.]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

All of the above is excellent advice. I tend to use GM fiat in this case most of the time, and since I have a trusting relationship with my players and solicit their input, it's rarely a problem. If what you're looking for is a more "objective" mechanic, though, I've sometimes found use of Skills to develop new Powers to be useful. In the case of gadget-using characters and the like, that's an easy process to justify: the character needs the appropriate SS or KS, Inventor, etc. He or she takes time away from adventuring to research and develop the new item, spell or the like. If running it this way I usually allow the players one roll in between adventures to come up with a new ability, and they can't try again until the character's next "down time."

 

Obviously that isn't appropriate for characters with innate Powers, especially if they don't have any Background Skills related to them; but lately I've gotten some mileage out of the Power Skill in that case. Characters can try something new with their existing Powers using that Skill, and if they're successful two or three times they can build it and add it to their Character Sheet. (In fact if they've used the trick that often, I insist on it.) That tends to keep any additions to a Multipower within concept, and gives the player a process through which they can earn that new ability.

 

First, let me thank everyone for their suggestions.

To clarify things a bit, this isn't really a case where the players are trying to buy inappropriate powers for their characters.

Neither is it anything I consider a "flaw" in the Hero System. I think the fact that it works so well and covers so many things occasionally makes me expect it to cover every possible contingency.

I was just looking for some sort of "fair" mechanic for determining how often a character can add powers to their Multipower. Not to give me the "right" to say no to inappropriate powers, but to have a systematic way of handling the entire question.

 

I think Lord Liaden has pointed me in the right direction, but I would still like some input from everyone on what I am about to propose.

 

These are guidelines I am going to present in my campaign (once they are "hashed out", of course), but since I both GM and play, and my co-GM's often adopt things that I propose, I want to make sure that they are fair.

 

1) A Power Skill is a prerequisite for adding new powers.

Consider this. Some characters just get powers.

If you find an alien Power Scepter that does three things: Flight, Force Field, Energy Blast; what are the odds that you could just "hotwire" it and make it start Tunneling or projecting a Flash Attack or whatever.

Sure, maybe Reed Richards could, but he has tons of scientific knowledge.

I am talking about Jack Gordon - Rookie Cop, who found the thing in an alley somewhere.

So, in order to "add" new powers, you first have to understand how the existing powers work.

How do we measure that understanding? Power Skill.

So, unless you built your powers yourself (and already have the skills as part of your background) you have to at least buy Power Skill to start adding things.

 

2) You must make a Power Skill Roll to add a new power.

Here is where I could really use some help!

I would like to work out some reasonable modifiers for this.

I am thinking about something like:

Advantage/Limitation to Existing Power......Base Power Skill Roll - (Active Points/10)

 

Add New Power...............................Base Roll - (Active Points/5)

 

Downtime Sessions spent Researching.........+2/Session (Cumulative)

 

Each Additional Attempt.....................+1/Attempt (Cumulative)

Power Skill Roll attempts can only be made between sessions during "downtime" not on the battlefield. Also, this applies only to those with Multipowers, it has no effect on things like VPP's.

 

Examples:

Light Lad has a Light-based multipower with the following specifications:

Light Powers: Multipower, 40-point reserve (40 pts.)

4u 1) Energy Blast 8d6 (vs. ED) (40 Active Points)

4u 2) Flash 8d6 (Sight Group) (40 Active Points)

4u 3) Force Field (20 PD/20 ED) (40 Active Points)

and after a few sessions the Player wants to add an Area Effect Energy Blast:

4u 4) Energy Blast 4d6 (vs. ED), Area Of Effect (2" Radius; +1) (40 Active Points)

 

Assuming the player had the 4 XP to spend, he could attempt to make his Power Skill Roll at -4 (40 AP / 10).

If he makes it, he can buy the new Slot, if he fails, he can try again next Downtime with a +1 for making a second attempt.

If he had chosen to wait a while first, spending three Downtime sessions in "research" he could have had a +6 modifier to the Roll.(+2 for each session prior to making the Roll.)

As you can see, with the positive modifiers, sooner or later he is bound to make it, either through research or just by getting subsequent roll bonuses.

 

The point is that it will take some time and effort. It is not preventing the character from adding a power, or forcing him to spend his points on something he doesn't want, it just keeps him from adding a new power every session.

 

Now let's say that Light Lad wants to add a Force Wall.

4u 5) Force Wall (8 PD/8 ED) (40 Active Points)

Since this is a New Power, his initial Roll is at -8 (40 AP / 5), but again that can be offset by spending a few sessions doing Research.

 

The more I look at this the better I like it. I like the "random" factor of rolling, because it allows for a character to make a "breakthrough" and figure it out the first time (very in genre for comics) but it also makes the usual process take some time (also in genre).

 

What does everyone else think?

 

KA

[Supreme Serpent]

You could make a house rule about spending XPs to encourage more rounded characters/avoid the MP issue. Something like "can't spend XP on same ability/power twice in a row" and count the whole MP as one power.

 

So, you get 3XP and buy a new MP slot. Next time you spend XP, you can't put it in the MP, so you instead add it to a different power, bump a stat up, buy a skill, whatever. Third time you spend XP you can go back to the MP.

[Lord Mhoram]

Another variation of the power skill thing, is that if the character comes up with a really cool in-game situation to use a "new" power (especially at a dramatic moment, when the new use of the power is what stands in between defeat and victory), and makes their power roll, they can then buy it at the end of the adventure.

 

We see that in comics, where a writer has a nifty use of a powers, and then the other writers say "cool" and add it into that character's repertoire.

[lemming]

Originally posted by CrosshairCollie

PC: "Great, all the information we need to find out the villain's plan is in this computer! Let's get it!"

Me: "Okay, make a Computer Programming roll."

PC: "Uh ... I don't have that ... uh, you? No ... uh, Jeff, do you ... uh ... Say, do you have ... no? Uhm ..."

Me: *drums fingers on table*

PC: "$%*@!"

Reminds me of the time Ice Pirate and Cat broke into a Neo-Nazi headquarters, made it all the way to the computer. Then turned to each other and said

"Ok, get the info"

"What do you mean you don't have Computer skills"

 

Both characters had tons of skills, no computer stuff though. The team leader made both characters go take some computer classes.

[Vondy]

I require players to justify expenditures in a roleplaying context. Not just time and resources, but also in in-character reasoning. They have to explain why the character can suddenly do something new.

 

For instance, you might require that the character manifest a new power (using the power skill) on the fly in play, perhaps more than once, before allowing them to buy it as a slot.

 

In truth this is one of the hardest parts about champions: advancement that the player and game master can be happy with.

 

I recommend, if you want players to focus on skills over powers, that you put them into situations that require skills more than powers, and let them feel some discomfort from not having the requisite skills.

[farik]

Originally posted by lemming

Reminds me of the time Ice Pirate and Cat broke into a Neo-Nazi headquarters, made it all the way to the computer. Then turned to each other and said

"Ok, get the info"

"What do you mean you don't have Computer skills"

 

Both characters had tons of skills, no computer stuff though. The team leader made both characters go take some computer classes.

 

Our groups similar experience happened when we were hired for a mission by an employer who didn't know our computer guy had gone AWOL. When he hired us to steal files we were all thinking manilla folders and film negatives. Until we got to the file room full of computers. We solved the problem buy having the speedster take the computers apart and we just ran with the hard drives.

[Ghost who Walks]

Thanks for clarifying your ideas, KA.

 

I like your rules, for using the power skill.

 

The only thing I would add is that the GM should be able to add powers also. Not often, of course, but on occasion. This could be used in those situations where the character really should have this power...since it fits with his conception.

 

Lightdude getting a flash attack for example.

 

I have used this on occasion, where something has happened in game that should alter the characters powers slightly.

[KA.]

Originally posted by Ghost who Walks

Thanks for clarifying your ideas, KA.

 

I like your rules, for using the power skill.

 

The only thing I would add is that the GM should be able to add powers also. Not often, of course, but on occasion. This could be used in those situations where the character really should have this power...since it fits with his conception.

 

Lightdude getting a flash attack for example.

 

I have used this on occasion, where something has happened in game that should alter the characters powers slightly.

 

Thanks for the kind words Ghost,

I agree about the GM being able to add a power that seems appropriate from time to time, although I usually do it with either XP that has just been earned or by allowing the player to reapportion their points to get the powers they are missing. I don't usually just give them things, but I will occasionally give them a few extra XP to cover the cost of something I think they should have.

 

KA

[Rebar]

require RPing

 

I quite like the idea of requiring in-game RPing before spending XP on something.

 

My swordsman jogged all across town for several games before I bought 1/2 End on his running.

[zornwil]

KA, you have an interesting idea. I'm not sure how I feel about the way you're doing the actual gaining of powers part (the skill roll application), but it seems reasonable enough in any case. I think if you keep in mind Lord Mhoram's suggestion regarding dramatic license, all should be well. I would award some bonuses to the roll if what they want to create is based on something they've done in a stunt or is otherwise "right up their alley", especially those "Ooooh, can't believe I forgot that, this power just makes sense for this character, should have had it all along."

 

Then again, my bias is towards liberal character growth, so bear that in mind.

[KA.]

Originally posted by zornwil

KA, you have an interesting idea. I'm not sure how I feel about the way you're doing the actual gaining of powers part (the skill roll application), but it seems reasonable enough in any case. I think if you keep in mind Lord Mhoram's suggestion regarding dramatic license, all should be well. I would award some bonuses to the roll if what they want to create is based on something they've done in a stunt or is otherwise "right up their alley", especially those "Ooooh, can't believe I forgot that, this power just makes sense for this character, should have had it all along."

 

Then again, my bias is towards liberal character growth, so bear that in mind.

 

Zornwill,

Thanks for the reply. Something that I left out of the equation, are my policies on the initial creation of the character.

Usually, I let the players build a character, go over it with them to make sure that nothing is abusive, and then we play a couple of sessions.

They face some goons, they face some other supers, and they face some skill use/roleplaying.

After all that, they can retool the character nearly from scratch. Add powers, remove/modify things that don't seem to work, add skills, you name it.

I do ask them to stick to the same character concept and basic idea, but other than that, pretty much anything goes.

If they really were totally unhappy with their character, I might even make it into an NPC and let them start again, making a different character to play, but still having the first character "exist" for the sake of continuity.

By the end of the process, there are usually not too many things that pop up that "should have been there all along", but if one did, I would let them buy it without the "skill roll".

 

I think that may be part of what disturbed me about the multipower slot phenomenon. I work pretty hard with the players to come up with characters that fit their concept and fit in with my world. And with characters that fit into a team, where each member is allowed to "shine".

I try to develop plotlines, if not actual plots, that are cohesive and make some sense in the long run.

But I think that the amount of change possible by adding a few points into multipower slots can be too much of a random factor.

 

Let's say that the Mayor's daughter is kidnapped.

What no one knows is that she was kidnapped by the Cult of the Apocalypse, a group that worships nuclear weapons as a path to God. The indoctrination will be a lengthy process, but she isn't going to be physically harmed.

After several scenarios spent searching for her, the PC's are forced to move on to other business, most dramatically, the recent theft of a nuclear device.

Eventually, the daughter appears in front of City Hall, holding a deadman switch attached to the Nuke. She is fully indoctrinated into the Cult, and wants to "enlighten" the entire city!

The GM is expecting some juicy roleplaying and wants the players to figure out a clever solution to this problem.

They can't hurt the Mayor's daughter, they can't let her nuke the city, they can't make a mistake that causes them to accidentally nuke the city.

Then Ice Lad's player speaks up: "Okay. I'm going to use my Brain Freeze attack."

GM: "What?"

Ice Lad: "You know, that new slot in my multipower, I bought it last week. It's a combination NND and Entangle. She'll be harmessly knocked out, and her hand will be frozen to the deadman switch so she can't let go. I'll just keep doing it until the Military shows up and disconnects the bomb."

GM: "Uuuuhhhhh. Well, guess that's it for tonight."

Group: "We've only been playing for 15 minutes!"

 

Now I know that example is rather slanted and a bit silly, but it is hard to plan anything long-term, when the characters are constantly adding major powers.

 

I also have a problem when the person with the multipower turns into "Captain Everything" after a few sessions.

 

It is like the "Why does the rest of the Justice League show up when Superman can do everything?" question.

 

Imagine you have a player like Hawkgirl. Fast Flight and HTH attack.

A couple of sessions pass and then:

Hawkgirl:"I am going to fly down and rescue the girl who fell off the building!"

Multiman:"I got it. I bought a Flight slot this week and I'm just as fast as you are!"

Later:

Eyeblast Man:"I'm going to use my Ocular Blast to knock down the door to the Viper Lab."

Multiman:"I got it. I bought an Energy Blast slot two weeks ago, it is just as strong as yours."

 

Now I have no problem with characters with multipowers. And they can put anything that makes sense into them when they are building the character. That is not a problem, and part of the game.

But later it can turn into "Anything you can do, I can do better!" for all the players that went with a more basic concept.

 

Anyway, I may find out in play that the modifiers are too harsh and that I have to back off them a bit.

If I do, or if things work well, I will report back here and let everyone who is interested know how it works out.

 

KA

[zornwil]

I'm looking forward to hearing how it works out!

 

Thanks for the additional info, I certainly understand (even moreso now) your concern. Every GM has to struggle one way or the other with character "growth", either by keeping it minimal or nil, or setting some boundaries, or letting it happen until the characters are boring (basically) and moving on. I'm always interested to hear how people deal with this.

[Zed-F]

Re: GM'ing Question: Experience Points and Multipower Slots.

 

Imagine you have a player like Hawkgirl. Fast Flight and HTH attack.

A couple of sessions pass and then:

Hawkgirl:"I am going to fly down and rescue the girl who fell off the building!"

Multiman:"I got it. I bought a Flight slot this week and I'm just as fast as you are!"

Later:

Eyeblast Man:"I'm going to use my Ocular Blast to knock down the door to the Viper Lab."

Multiman:"I got it. I bought an Energy Blast slot two weeks ago, it is just as strong as yours."

 

I don't have a problem with a character that wants to be very versatile... but there is a cost. Any such character is not allowed be able to outshine any specialist character in their specialty. I will not ok any power which allows them to do so. Multiman would not be allowed to buy very fast flight, or a very strong EB, if that was someone else's shtick. At best, the Jack-of-all-trades character will be average at anything they do, not exceptional, unless there is no other character that is exceptional in that area.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: GM'ing Question: Experience Points and Multipower Slots.

 

I don't have a problem with a character that wants to be very versatile... but there is a cost. Any such character is not allowed be able to outshine any specialist character in their specialty.

I happen to agree...I'm running a very versatile character...tons of Skills, a 75 pt Gadget pool and a 30 pt Magic pool...and there are several things I've left out, even if they'd make sense for the character concept, so I don't overshadow someone else. Just one small example: when building my 40-INT character, Cryptography was one of the Skills I had down on my sheet. I thought it might be useful, and it also was a logical outgrowth of a number of other Skills I had down. Then one of the other players, talking about his character concept and background, mentioned having a lot of various private investigator skills, but "his specialty was Cryptography". I just quietly erased Cryptography from my own sheet. Likewise, my character has no Combat Driving / Combat Piloting skills. I can fix'em, or build'em from scratch, but not drive them. For my power pools, all of my Gadgets I make with charges (so I get a limited number of shots) and I don't have any Combat Skill Levels, so I often miss. My Spells are always done with Gestures, Incants, and at least Delayed Phase -- they have a chance of being stopped by the 'other side' (the bad guys) before I complete them. And so on and so forth.

 

As a side note, Dr. Anomaly is seriously thinking about getting some practice on the firing range! (In other words, it's been long enough in-game that I think I can justify spending some XP on a +1 with Ranged Combat. )